Ending Of An Era = Myth

[Beno88]

I've noticed that one of the common themes amongst the morgue-like atmosphere on this forum is "this is the end of an era".

Because for the second time in nine seasons we'll just miss the finals. Because the stars of that period are getting on. Or is it because we've been used to the up and down history of St Kilda over the last 25 years? The days when we'd build up (89-90, 95-96 & 02-03) then spike up to the finals (91-92, 97-98 & 04-05) and then drop away again just as quickly.

Well I believe this is now a different St Kilda Football Club. The days of "eras" are over. The true heavyweights of the competition don't have eras. They have the odd bad year, but sides like Sydney, West Coast, Collingwood, Geelong, they make themselves a revered opponent every year. Even when they're off, you still have no confidence playing West Coast in Perth, or Collingwood in front of 60,000 rabid fans. Those sides have champions move on and the kids just step into their shoes. The second tier players step up. There is an expectation of success. They don't hope for finals or premierships, they expect them.

St Kilda has been moving in this direction. Grant Thomas started it, Ross Lyon strengthened it, Scott Watters is continuing it, regardless of the game plan. We have a strong list. We have solid youth. No youngster has looked out of his depth in 2012. We may have aging champions, but our second tier players are stepping up. Armitage, Steven, Geary & Dempster have all had career best seasons. Just like in 2007 when Hamill, Gehrig, Jones, etc were leaving us, Montagna, Gram, Milne, Fisher stepped up. There's a growing culture. We now expect to play finals. We expect to be competitive every year, every week.

Rebuilding is a thing of the past. We don't need to slide down the ladder and hope that our top five draft pick turns into the next Nick Riewoldt. We now have the people, structures, facilities and culture to breed success without sacrificing it.

There should be no more sliding expectations, this club is now stronger than that.

[Goody]

I agree, I actually think missing the finals this year will do us a bit of good. We've been "up" for a long time, its about time some of our players had a rest and a normal preseason. For a fair few years now we've played finals and some very deep and a lot of our players have had to endure surgery, recovery and straight into a modified preseason and thus started the season a little underdone.
We still have a great core and some bright youngsters, they will be chomping at the bit come March, instead of getting plaster casts off and lacking fitness.
In one of the most open seasons Ive witnessed, I still enjoyed the year and look forward to next year!!

[thejiggingsaint]

With all the ups and downs, ins, outs, whatever! I've had a great year!!! we are SO lucky to have grabbed a coach like S Watters, and a list manager like C Pelchen. giving the Bombers a thorough pasting for Milney was one highlight, as was the thumping of Sydney for Lenny! I'd like to say to all those posters who choose to be "victims" of umpires, the AFL, the draw, the media, moving to seaford,etc etc etc.....GET A GRIP!!!!!!!! this club while not yet quite ready to shake the world, is slowly building toward something GREAT!
I've NEVER felt so optimistic about us!!!! GO SAINTS!!!

[thejiggingsaint]

beno 88 You've warmed my old heart with your OP!!!!! your blood's worth bottling my friend!!!!!!

[dragit]

I disagree.

But it doesn't have to depressing either.

Club culture and winning culture is very important, but it will never cover having a poor list.

Brisbane won 3 in a row, had an amazing culture of relentless tough winning football. Their list got old and they have barely fired a shot in 8 years and haven't made the finals since they lost the 2004 GF have they?

Collingwood lost 2 GF's, basically retired that era of players, bottomed out and drafted very well with a flawed and subsequently altered priority system. They would be a lot less potent without Thomas, Pendlebury, Reid & Brown, all top 10 picks, which were possible because they missed the finals.

West Coast similar.

Geelong's era has been massively effected by another recruiting law which has been changed, the father-son rules. Their current captain would not be there if the new rules were applied earlier, plus they have now have 2 first round picks for a guy they picked up at about pick #40… Their era will end, but they have been pretty fortunate and drafted extremely well.

I think it's a myth that the 'strong sides' don't drop out for periods. Look at Carlton, I grew up with them spanking us for nearly 20 years, then they suffered a decade of disaster.

We will drop down the ladder, but the important thing is that we build and rise again. Expecting to be top 4 every year is setting yourself up for agonising disappointment.

The reality is that our best 6 players are due to retire, the ones that have catapulted us to nearly a decade of finals. The next generation are building, but we have some serious holes in our list, both position wise and age wise. Don't despair when lose more than we win for a couple of years, take it on the chin, keep supporting and wait for our turn again.

[Teflon]

I disagree.

But it doesn't have to depressing either.

Club culture and winning culture is very important, but it will never cover having a poor list.

Brisbane won 3 in a row, had an amazing culture of relentless tough winning football. Their list got old and they have barely fired a shot in 8 years and haven't made the finals since they lost the 2004 GF have they?

Collingwood lost 2 GF's, basically retired that era of players, bottomed out and drafted very well with a flawed and subsequently altered priority system. They would be a lot less potent without Thomas, Pendlebury, Reid & Brown, all top 10 picks, which were possible because they missed the finals.

West Coast similar.

Geelong's era has been massively effected by another recruiting law which has been changed, the father-son rules. Their current captain would not be there if the new rules were applied earlier, plus they have now have 2 first round picks for a guy they picked up at about pick #40… Their era will end, but they have been pretty fortunate and drafted extremely well.

I think it's a myth that the 'strong sides' don't drop out for periods. Look at Carlton, I grew up with them spanking us for nearly 20 years, then they suffered a decade of disaster.

We will drop down the ladder, but the important thing is that we build and rise again. Expecting to be top 4 every year is setting yourself up for agonising disappointment.

The reality is that our best 6 players are due to retire, the ones that have catapulted us to nearly a decade of finals. The next generation are building, but we have some serious holes in our list, both position wise and age wise. Don't despair when lose more than we win for a couple of years, take it on the chin, keep supporting and wait for our turn again.

Smart post

Gee that Ablett trade has possibly set Cats up for next few years.....

[Cairnsman]

I disagree.

But it doesn't have to depressing either.

Club culture and winning culture is very important, but it will never cover having a poor list.

Brisbane won 3 in a row, had an amazing culture of relentless tough winning football. Their list got old and they have barely fired a shot in 8 years and haven't made the finals since they lost the 2004 GF have they?

Collingwood lost 2 GF's, basically retired that era of players, bottomed out and drafted very well with a flawed and subsequently altered priority system. They would be a lot less potent without Thomas, Pendlebury, Reid & Brown, all top 10 picks, which were possible because they missed the finals.

West Coast similar.

Geelong's era has been massively effected by another recruiting law which has been changed, the father-son rules. Their current captain would not be there if the new rules were applied earlier, plus they have now have 2 first round picks for a guy they picked up at about pick #40… Their era will end, but they have been pretty fortunate and drafted extremely well.

I think it's a myth that the 'strong sides' don't drop out for periods. Look at Carlton, I grew up with them spanking us for nearly 20 years, then they suffered a decade of disaster.

We will drop down the ladder, but the important thing is that we build and rise again. Expecting to be top 4 every year is setting yourself up for agonising disappointment.

The reality is that our best 6 players are due to retire, the ones that have catapulted us to nearly a decade of finals. The next generation are building, but we have some serious holes in our list, both position wise and age wise. Don't despair when lose more than we win for a couple of years, take it on the chin, keep supporting and wait for our turn again.

Smart post

Gee that Ablett trade has possibly set Cats up for next few years.....

Yep. Gotta agree. Smart post Dragit. Whilst I can see where the OP is going with is views I don't aggree rebuilding is a thing of the past. I'd much rather be a bottom 4 side for a couple of years to pick up some top 10 picks than become the perennial gate keepers of 9th spot.

What I would like to see also is our champion players of the past decade hang around the club and be invited to take on roles of management, fund raising, specialist coaching roles, player mentoring. This would add to the "success breeds success" culture.

[matrix]

http://www.triplem.com.au/sydney/sport/ ... -gzkb.html

(didnt see the point in starting a new thread)

[Beno88]

I actually agree with what dragit is saying also. But I think we have the personel to unearth talent without having to be easy beats for seasons on end. All sides have had their time down the bottom, but there's finishing with more losses than wins and then there's hardly winning at all. A Geelong-Collingwood-Sydney style rebuild is what we are now in a position to do. Not a Melbourne-Carlton-Richmond style rebuild. The foundations are now already there, Mr.Pelchen just needs to work his magic come draft and trade time.

[philtee]

Thanks for the link matrix.
Interesting stuff.
Gary Lyon was sniping at the Saints on Friday night. Sounds much more rational here.

[kosifantutti]

Barring a disaster in the last two weeks, this will be our eighth consecutive winning season based on more than 50% win loss record or exactly 50% win loss record and a percentage greater than 100.

The same is 1960 - 1968

[3rd generation saint]

Brisbane made a cardinal sin after the 09 season. They thought, or Michal Voss thought they we're on the verge of being a premiership contenders again after winning their first final against Carlton, then getting smacked by the Bulldogs the following week.
They didn't draft, they traded for used players like Fevola, Goose, X Clarke etc who they thought would make the difference between bottom 4 of the 8 to top 4 of the 8.
We all know what a disaster that recruiting was, they probably set themselves back 4-5 years with that recruiting and are paying for it now.
Carlton of course cheated and lost a whole season's draft, hence why BJ has had an outstanding career with us and not them.
Even so, they may still be hampered by getting Judd because of the amount of space, despite his cushy job Visy, he takes up in their salary cap.
How far we fall and how quickly we get back is now up to smart drafting, trading and use of the free agency system.
We do have some very good kids coming thru who will be part of the next push, and enough experienced talent that can still contribute to help bring them through.
Let's hope this is similar to 05 and another 09 is around 2016-2017.

[gringo]

Brisbane made a cardinal sin after the 09 season. They thought, or Michal Voss thought they we're on the verge of being a premiership contenders again after winning their first final against Carlton, then getting smacked by the Bulldogs the following week.
They didn't draft, they traded for used players like Fevola, Goose, X Clarke etc who they thought would make the difference between bottom 4 of the 8 to top 4 of the 8.
We all know what a disaster that recruiting was, they probably set themselves back 4-5 years with that recruiting and are paying for it now.
Carlton of course cheated and lost a whole season's draft, hence why BJ has had an outstanding career with us and not them.
Even so, they may still be hampered by getting Judd because of the amount of space, despite his cushy job Visy, he takes up in their salary cap.
How far we fall and how quickly we get back is now up to smart drafting, trading and use of the free agency system.
We do have some very good kids coming thru who will be part of the next push, and enough experienced talent that can still contribute to help bring them through.
Let's hope this is similar to 05 and another 09 is around 2016-2017.

Carlton were smacked by the AFL and that set off a chain of events that led to board instability, infighting and blame. The stable clubs don't start panicking and wield axes -they set about cohesive plans and bring in the right people to help implement the direction.

As long as you keep your heads and don't start going crazy there is a very good chance of a quick rebuild. Sydney are very cohesive because they have no one stirring up trouble when they fall out of the finals. We are now a stable club with very little of our crazy shadow jumping past still on show.

We survived our coach selling us out at the worst possible time and actually built our selves up from it.

Voss stuffed up when he wielded the axe on guys like Bradshaw and bought in Fev which gave guys like Brennan, Rischitelli and Sherman the feeling the old boys weren't valued. Poor management and nostalgia caused them to appoint an inexperienced Voss in the first place.

Rebuilds can happen with some luck and good management from a stable structure, I back us in for a quick one.