Milne and OBrien investigation

[Dis Believer]

bit of a girly response to be honest TB

Yeah, what a nancy boy!

Aaawwwww, you guys........

[matrix]

lol nancy
somewhere, in the distance...the faint cries of an ice skater can be heard

[desertsaint]

well I'd like to contribute my two cents worth.

[matrix]

well I'd like to contribute my two cents worth.

quoted for shear comedic value

[8856brother]

Unbelievable stuff. As I said in a post many months ago. Stay inside. Don't speak. Whatever you do don't hurt yourself because we WILL search the world for someone else to blame.

The world has gone insane. I fear for my children.

Baa Baa coloured sheep. Have you any wool.......................

[ozrulestrace]

Lets not forget the little tribute paid for by the filth to a guy who went out and got himself stinking drunk then drove himself into the back of a truck.
Funny how there's no comment on that from the Thought Police.

My thoughts exactly.

Someone approved that as suitable family content and going against the grain of the millions of our TAC dollars poured into that club?

[Cairnsman]

Lets not forget the little tribute paid for by the filth to a guy who went out and got himself stinking drunk then drove himself into the back of a truck.
Funny how there's no comment on that from the Thought Police.

My thoughts exactly.

Someone approved that as suitable family content and going against the grain of the millions of our TAC dollars poured into that club?

I'm still in game mode but I am compelled to respond to this because I have been amazed by the hate for a dead person that was killed by his own hand.

Surely all of the TAC campaigns don't teach us to hate people that are killed in the way Darren Milane was. It just isn't appropriate to hate him. If he wasn't a Collingwood player but a family member or close friend would people feel the same way or would they be sad at the loss of someone that was killed by a bad choice or moment of insanity. Think about it. Have a little more class when it comes to speaking about the dead.

[ozrulestrace]

I don't hate the late Darren Millane and understand the loss felt by his family to the point one of his family members took their own life.

My point is that don't glorify this person and annoint him with his own martyrdom, twenty years on, officially or unofficially.

The lyrics of "Number 42 standing at the pearly gates" were distasteful and embarassing and seemed another example of re-writing history, awell-known Collingwood trait.

[markp]

So, players should be hauled over the coals and fined if on a football field they call an opponent a girl, or insane?... blind?... dumb?

Firstly, the punishment is a mild rap over the knuckles in AFL terms. Secondly I'm not sure, but let me put it to you, would you endorse one of our players calling someone a spastic or a schizo?

It's $3k, which is a lot of money, and he's been publicly flamed all week over it while the AFL/media postures.

As to your question, I'd find it distasteful, as I do this... but that's not at all the point. It doesn't/wouldn't need or warrant being officially and publicly dealt with, or a fine to be issued.

I don't particularly like what he said, but I don't think I want to live in a world where people are fined $3k and publicly and officially re-educated for calling someone (remember we're talking about a straight man, on a footy field, in the heat of the moment) something as benign as a homo, or a spastic, a girl, insane, etc.

It's madness... can I say that?

[Scollop]

I don't hate the late Darren Millane and understand the loss felt by his family to the point one of his family members took their own life.

My point is that don't glorify this person and annoint him with his own martyrdom, twenty years on, officially or unofficially.

The lyrics of "Number 42 standing at the pearly gates" were distasteful and embarassing and seemed another example of re-writing history, awell-known Collingwood trait.

Who gets to stand at the pearly gates isn't a decision for you is it???

Why distasteful? Are you judging whether someone's sins should be forgiven or not? That's what you're doing - isn't it !!

[Richter]

I don't particularly like what he said, but I don't think I want to live in a world where people are fined $3k and publicly and officially re-educated for calling someone (remember we're talking about a straight man, on a footy field, in the heat of the moment) something as benign as a homo, or a spastic, a girl, insane, etc.

It's madness... can I say that?

Fair enough. Whilst I'm not particularly in favour of this stuff being taken off the field, I guess I'm looking at Milney's punishment as being a small price to pay for the privilege of being a role model to many... and the responsibility that goes with it...

Reading through this thread it seems clear that casual homophobia (which is what this stuff is) is somehow seen less unacceptable than, say, casual racism.

[satchmo]

Reading through this thread it seems clear that casual homophobia (which is what this stuff is) is somehow seen less unacceptable than, say, casual racism.

Is there such thing as as "casual" intense hatred or fear of homosexuals or homosexuality ?

I don't believe that calling someone a poof is necessarily indicative of homophobia. I hear these kind of jibes all day long in various work places and social settings, and I've rarely to hear it used by someone I considered homophobic.
In fact I suspect that an intense reaction to such a taunt might be more indicative of homophobia.

This kind of language is common everyday usage, and you can obviously argue that it shouldn't be, but in nearly fifty years I have yet to observe anyone offended by it. I realise of course that many people might be offended by such remarks, but in the vernacular they are typically used towards people that clearly wouldn't be offended.

So to your observation that it is considered "less unacceptable", I would say that in my observation it is actually considered acceptable.

[ozrulestrace]

I don't hate the late Darren Millane and understand the loss felt by his family to the point one of his family members took their own life.

My point is that don't glorify this person and annoint him with his own martyrdom, twenty years on, officially or unofficially.

The lyrics of "Number 42 standing at the pearly gates" were distasteful and embarassing and seemed another example of re-writing history, awell-known Collingwood trait.

Who gets to stand at the pearly gates isn't a decision for you is it???

Why distasteful? Are you judging whether someone's sins should be forgiven or not? That's what you're doing - isn't it !!

Well you are talking to a heathen and for me there aint no pearly gates for the late DM or anyone else.

I say it's distasteful because it is those supporters continue to glorify a person whose "sins" extended beyond one drink driving episode and once again we see Collingwood rewriting its history.
That's all, it's not up to me or anyone else to forgive nor do you have to forget, but you have to face the truth about he died and sadly many others have followed suite.

[saint6709]

Well guys - not sure where this thread has gone - 14 pages and - no offense - can't be bothered reading them all - not sure how Milne/Obrien morphed into Milane - BUT my problem with this whole thing - and forgive me if this has been mentioned elsewhere - I would like to see the umpire put under investigation - OK so Milne has said something the ump sees as inappropriate and penalises him 50 m - OK so be it - but then the ump needs to move on and call each new decision on its merits - he CAN"T just penalise Milne indiscriminately every time he goes near the ball for the rest of the match - THE UMP NEEDS TO BE THE ISSUE HERE

[White Winmar]

I don't hate the late Darren Millane and understand the loss felt by his family to the point one of his family members took their own life.

My point is that don't glorify this person and annoint him with his own martyrdom, twenty years on, officially or unofficially.

The lyrics of "Number 42 standing at the pearly gates" were distasteful and embarassing and seemed another example of re-writing history, awell-known Collingwood trait.

Spot on, Ozrulestrace. Andrew Hansen of The Chaser said it best in a little ditty he wrote a few years ago, titled, "Even d*ckheads become good blokes when they're dead."

[Austinnn]

B U M P !


Reading this article today, I thought back to our discussion from earlier on. Apologies for dragging the diffficult issue up again, but I thought you'd be interested to hear what a real live homosexual person thinks about this issue (as I'm sure that all the Saintsational posters are perfectly harmless hetrosexuals ) And this guy is a footballer as well, albeit at a much lower level. No, it's not that Jason Ball; I suppose it must be a reasonably common name, shame his surname isn't Akermanis when you think about it.

I'm pretty sure that this article will reinforce rather than change everyone's opinion, but anyway here goes...


'I didn't know any footballers who were gay'

September 9, 2012, Jill Stark, The Age

SOMETIMES he'd say he had a girlfriend. In the world of Aussie rules football, Jason Ball thought he had to play up his ''blokeyness''. When teammates sledged opposition players, calling them ''homo'' or ''fag'', he'd pretend not to care. Inside the footy club where he'd played since he was five, nobody knew he was gay.

''It was the one place I never thought I'd be able to come out. Ever. It just felt like a really hostile environment. I worried I'd be bullied, maybe I'd get kicked out of the side, maybe the opposition would treat me differently or I'd get abuse [from supporters] over the fence,'' he told The Sunday Age. ''I didn't know any footballers who were gay, so I could only assume the worst, and it scared me.''

The 24-year-old, who plays for Yarra Glen seniors in the Yarra Valley Mountain District Football League, is a rare voice in a football world that gay groups say is struggling to come to terms with homosexuality in its ranks.

While such groups agree sexuality is a private matter, they say it is significant that no AFL players have revealed their homosexuality.

For Ball, publicly coming out was unnecessary. His teammates figured it out and were supportive. The homophobic language stopped. ''It was like they could see those words have an effect on people because it was hurting me, one of their mates.''

Ball believes there are hundreds, maybe thousands of others like him playing in minor leagues, and professionally, who feel too isolated to reveal their sexuality. There are rumours that a TV network has offered a gay AFL player a six-figure sum to be the first footballer to come out.

Today, backed by online-petition movement Change.org, Ball will launch a campaign urging the league to air anti-homophobia videos at the MCG during this month's grand final. He also wants the AFL to stage a ''Pride'' round next season to celebrate sexual diversity.

Beyondblue chairman Jeff Kennett, who last week launched a campaign highlighting the mental health impact of homophobia, backed Ball's petition. He told The Sunday Age he spoke privately with AFL boss Andrew Demetriou last week, urging him to do more to tackle the problem in the game.

''Beyondblue has a relationship with the AFL anyway, and Andrew and I have been discussing some ideas that have not been done before for next year, which will be about sexuality discrimination,'' Mr Kennett said. ''This young man really deserves to be congratulated because there will be many of his fellow footballers who are in exactly the same position but have been worried about public pressure and therefore kept their sexuality to themselves.''

It comes after the AFL last month wrote a letter of support for ''No to Homophobia'' - a campaign run by gay rights and social justice groups - but were criticised for not doing more.

The fact St Kilda's Stephen Milne escaped with a $3000 fine and an education course rather than a suspension, after calling Collingwood defender Harry O'Brien a ''f---ing homo'', implied that sexual vilification was treated less seriously than other forms of discrimination, Ball said.

''At high school I got picked on for being gay and those words were used to make me feel small and worthless. If you look at rates of suicide, self-harm and depression for gay kids, this is a serious issue. I was fine coming out to my school friends and my family but I was terrified coming out to my football team. That makes it the AFL's problem because this culture is in their sport.''

Some have questioned whether the AFL should be responsible for taking a lead role on every major social issue.

But Ball argues that as long as our cultural life is viewed through the prism of football, the AFL has a greater role to play than most in ''changing hearts and minds''.

''It's no wonder that no gay player at a professional level would come out when the AFL is not working as it could to create a more positive and inclusive environment for that to happen. I think the players are ready. The clubs are ready. But we just need the AFL to lead on changing the culture so that players and fans like me can openly be who we are without fear.''

Dr Caroline Symons, a senior lecturer in social policy in sport at Victoria University, says a 2010 report she co-authored surveying the gay and lesbian community found football was the hardest sport for people to be open about their sexuality.

''If you weren't playing well the terms used to motivate men were, 'You're playing like a pack of poofs or faggots.' So the terminology associates being gay with being weak and that can be very alienating,'' she said.

A spokesman for the AFL said it supported diversity and respectful relationships and did not tolerate discrimination.

■The Australian Christian Lobby has rejected Jeff Kennett's offer to replace the Prime Minister at its national conference. On Thursday, Julia Gillard withdrew from the October conference, citing ''offensive'' comments by the lobby's leader, Jim Wallace, on homosexuality.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/i ... 25ler.html

[Thinline]

I maintain a quantum leap exists between heat of the moment blabbings when one's mind is scrambled by a combination of white line fever and exhaustion and homophobia.

A difference exists with racism because there is not a visual disconnect.

That is, a black man is a black man, an arab an arab. Sexuality isn't visible.

My theory anyway.

[dragit]

The fact St Kilda's Stephen Milne escaped with a $3000 fine and an education course rather than a suspension, after calling Collingwood defender Harry O'Brien a ''f---ing homo'', implied that sexual vilification was treated less seriously than other forms of discrimination, Ball said.

How do we go about grading different types of vilification?
Racial vilification is more widely condemned probably because of a history of disturbing persecution.
Should there be a ruling body which ranks various forms?

Size, shape, age, colour, hair colour, sexuality or even athletic ability… all things which could be used to vilify a person, all things which could offend.

If Sandilands said to Milne "You f-ing short bastard", is that considered vilification? Milne cannot help his height.

I have no problem with punishing vilification, I do however have a problem with being randomly selected to be the first player to be punished, I also have a problem with an umpire becoming so emotionally effected by a situation that they change the course of a match.

[CURLY]

The fact St Kilda's Stephen Milne escaped with a $3000 fine and an education course rather than a suspension, after calling Collingwood defender Harry O'Brien a ''f---ing homo'', implied that sexual vilification was treated less seriously than other forms of discrimination, Ball said.

How do we go about grading different types of vilification?
Racial vilification is more widely condemned probably because of a history of disturbing persecution.
Should there be a ruling body which ranks various forms?

Size, shape, age, colour, hair colour, sexuality or even athletic ability… all things which could be used to vilify a person, all things which could offend.

If Sandilands said to Milne "You f-ing short bastard", is that considered vilification? Milne cannot help his height.

I have no problem with punishing vilification, I do however have a problem with being randomly selected to be the first player to be punished, I also have a problem with an umpire becoming so emotionally effected by a situation that they change the course of a match.

Yep basically what it comes down to is that Margetts cheated. He was found out and turned the attention to Milne.

[IluvHarvey]

Being a Red head I have to put up with being vilified every day.

It really annoys me that you can't say something about the colour of someones skin but can about the colour of their hair.
Whats the difference?

I being serious too.

[evo]

Being a Red head I have to put up with being vilified every day.

It really annoys me that you can't say something about the colour of someones skin but can about the colour of their hair.
Whats the difference?

I being serious too.

RANGER

[IluvHarvey]

Piss off.

Are you serious!

[Cairnsman]

I maintain a quantum leap exists between heat of the moment blabbings when one's mind is scrambled by a combination of white line fever and exhaustion and homophobia.

A difference exists with racism because there is not a visual disconnect.

That is, a black man is a black man, an arab an arab. Sexuality isn't visible.

My theory anyway.

Ever heard of a 'gaydar'? What if milne has one?

[evo]

Piss off.

Are you serious!

Of course not

[Austinnn]

Being a Red head I have to put up with being vilified every day.

It really annoys me that you can't say something about the colour of someones skin but can about the colour of their hair.
Whats the difference?

I being serious too.

I am assuming you are serious as you say and not fishing, although I suspect that you are fishing.

Redheads often are the children of other redheads. All the abuse that they have experienced, odds on other people in their family have encountered to. This is quite similar to people with a darker skin colour. But the redhead's parents and grandparents probably suffered more or less the same as them, rather than drasticly worse. And the redhead doesn't have the burden of centuries of being made to feel inhuman passed down by their family and other redheads in their community. Why?

The difference is that people with red hair haven't EVER been forced into slavery, or burnt on huge wooden crosses because of the colour of their hair. Redheads may have been beaten up at school but they have never been beaten half to death in a police cell, or had their neighbours petition the local council to stop them from buying houses in different places, or had their whole family intimidated and spat on by anyone from old people to kids, and have never been laughed at by the police if they dared to extract justice in the way society tells us is right.

To my knowledge, redheads have also NEVER been killed, severely injured, raped, pushed out to the desert or had their children taken from them on the basis of their hair colour. While it is true that redheads do get called names and are made to feel inferior, the weight of the history of oppression and mistrust of people like them - I would argue - is a little lighter than that for a different ethnicity.

I could go on, but I think you get the picture. It's a bit of a laugh, seeing people try to jump on the offended minority bandwagon just because they've got bad spots or red hair. I wore glasses at school and was not good at sports, so I got a bit of s*** from the kids at school. So what? Not really the same as being born into a violent and recurring history of systemetic violence and abuse.

The only similarity is that the reasons for the vastly varying levels of abuse are equally artificial and ridiculous.

Now back to Homophobia. I'd like to remind anyone that cares, I don't really think Milne was being homophobic, but he used the language of homophobia, gave it oxygen and currency. For example if a player called Brent Harvey a "n*gger", no sane man would say that he was being racially abused. Does that make the use of the word right? Does that make it ok for little kids in the stands to hear their heroes say it, or for Daniel Wells or Majak Daw to overhear it?

I think Milne was charged with his use of a taboo word, not abusing Harry O'Brien. It's a bit sad that we have to get to this stage (it's a bit sad that in the 21st century people still need to be asked to respect the feelings of a homosexual or a black person in the same way they would respect those of anyone else rather than doing it automatically), but there you are. I have no problem with my favourite player been made an example of - someone has to be. Milne is already hated by everyone besides St Kilda, so its just another medal of infamy to hang on his proud chest. The only thing I DO have a problem with is if any similar future incidents are not punished the same way.

As far as the article goes, words clearly did have an effect on this homosexual and others he knows/knew, and though you'll never stop it, the player is only asking that it is condemned and punished officially, rather than turning a blind eye, in a similar way to how inter-marriage rape and domestic violence was only made illegal quite recently. That is the only real point here. This is a real line in the sand, and not just a club motto.