Milne and OBrien investigation

[dragit]

Indeed, the outer at the football used to serve us intolerant reactionaries but now even that has been taken away!

That's right, we're coming for you, and we're going to drive you into the desert. You're not even safe in your own mind now, we're inventing ways to police your very thoughts. Agggghhhhhh!

On the lighter side of things, you can always try suburban football, or Rugby League.

Why don't we try something else:
You go treehugging,whale saving and Gay marriage witnessing and leave the footy to the great unwashed!

Yeah!, and lets bring back racism too.

[SaintPav]

The best post I have read on on Milney was by Sapceman a couple of months back. It summed it up beautifully.

[SaintPav]

When Malthouse called Milne a rapist then lied about it, what his fine? I'd like to know.

$7,500

Ok then. thanks. It should have been $75,000.

[SaintPav]

Yeah!, and lets bring back racism too.

Are you joking? We don't have to. It has never left the building.

[dragit]

I have no problem with sanctioning this kind of language, however I do have a huge problem with being made an example of, again, for something that would happen every single week at the footy no doubt.

The AFL has to create a definitive list of terms which are just completely unacceptable, not rely on which ones a particular umpire takes offence to.

Are the umpires now the 'naughty language' police? Will they report everything they deem offensive, or will they just prefer to change the course of matches through favouring one side?

Dean Margetts - Karma Police

[whiskers3614]

I have no problem with sanctioning this kind of language, however I do have a huge problem with being made an example of, again, for something that would happen every single week at the footy no doubt.

The AFL has to create a definitive list of terms which are just completely unacceptable, not rely on which ones a particular umpire takes offence to.

Are the umpires now the 'naughty language' police? Will they report everything they deem offensive, or will they just prefer to change the course of matches through favouring one side?

Dean Margetts - Karma Police

Apparently Margetts was cool with it.
Only reacted because of his husband's self esteem issues!

[dragit]

Yeah!, and lets bring back racism too.

Are you joking? We don't have to. It has never left the building.

Well if you'd told me 20 years ago that a collingwood player (thomas) would point out a racist collingwood fan in the crowd for retribution, I would have not believed you…

[gringo]

Yeah!, and lets bring back racism too.

Are you joking? We don't have to. It has never left the building.

unfortunately right they seem to hide the obvious but the slow seething ugliness stays bubbling underneath. Education is a stronger tool than heavy handed justice. Aussies are fair minded by nature but a rebellious lot. Tell them what to think and the go the Plugger and get all contrary. If they said we are having a moratorium on abuse that crosses the line and get the players association on side they get it right.

not a great way to handle it and more damaging to the cause than good. I'm friends with a few gay people and doubt they would have a problem with what milne said. If said to them based on knowledge of their choices it is a different story.

[terry smith rules]

I have no problem with sanctioning this kind of language, however I do have a huge problem with being made an example of, again, for something that would happen every single week at the footy no doubt.

The AFL has to create a definitive list of terms which are just completely unacceptable, not rely on which ones a particular umpire takes offence to.

Are the umpires now the 'naughty language' police? Will they report everything they deem offensive, or will they just prefer to change the course of matches through favouring one side?

Dean Margetts - Karma Police

Apparently Margetts was cool with it.
Only reacted because of his husband's self esteem issues!

and whiskers sums up this entire post

he says something that he thinks is clever and funny

pathetic beyond belief

[gringo]

I just hope the Dalai Lama gives the Pies some bad karma and they lose in straight sets come finals. Swan getting them all around to Lovetts house for some kind of mass drug session that sees them all suspended will do.

[Austinnn]

Don't get me wrong Austinn, I don't condone racism or bigotry, I've got kids and would tear them a new one if they used those words, but they also know that there are people out there who do use them, and you can't control them or what they do... what you can control is your own actions and mind set.

So what I'm saying is that I don't use those words, and I don't really condone them. But if someone chooses to uses them towards me I don't let it get to me.

Don't worry Leo, I can see where you're coming from, and I agree with what you're saying. But I maintain, for the officials to say nothing is essentially to condone it. If the establishment condones it, what's to stop anyone but the more enlightened from considering that it may be offensive? Imagine if the AFL had said publicly after Margetts complaint that it wasn't an issue. The same thing would have kept happening. In fact that is probably what has been happening up until now. At some stage, we have to say "OK, things have to change", because football is a commercial event now, and as such is open to the general public.

Our number one ticket holder is an open homosexual. Perhaps many other supporters too. Molly has had to put up with sly digs about his sexuality for years, he's got a pretty thick skin about it. I doubt he'd care. I doubt whether any gay person actually gives a rat's toss bag about what Milney said to Harry O.

You yourself said that you have "got kids and would tear them a new one if they used those words" - so you want to control what your kids say, but you don't think it's the AFLs place to tell their players what to say during a game? Why don't you let your kids say what they want? Because they make your family look bad? Because you don't think it's good for their character? Because you want to ensure that they understand that those words can be hurtful?

So yes, I agree that it shouldn't have been done so publicly, but I support the AFL's right to intervene there.

Come on Austin, the welfare state is a massive failure.

Not to get too uppity, but Winnie Churchill once said

“It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.”

The welfare state may have some faults, but where we are at right now is still a work in progress. The freedom of the frontier town or a lawless land is far worse. The conservative utopia of a dog-eat-dog society where we look after ourselves and let everyone do the same is fine, but someone has to be on the bottom, without support. Someone has to lose their job, someone has to go to hospital, someone makes costly mistakes. There are some people who just can't help themselves. We can support them, or we can watch their lives be destroyed. Sometimes I feel that the best way to help people is tough love. They have to learn how to help themselves. You have to accept however that some can't and they won't make it. The question is Who do you consider to be 'your family': blood relatives, people you know personally, compatriots, or all humanity? The key difference to all these problems stems from your answer to this little question: Who do you care about?

But let's wind it back; we're talking about one football player using a word in anger that in a totally different context is offensive to many people, and the AFL's reaction.

Why don't we try something else:
You go treehugging,whale saving and Gay marriage witnessing and leave the footy to the great unwashed!

I do like being around loads of trees, though have never hugged one, I have plenty of gay friends though have never been to any of their weddings, and am really into the idea of saving whales though I've never done a thing about it. I also like watching football and love my team like a tribe. One of the things that initially attracted me to football is that whereas Rubgy League fans just seemed like a bunch of boofhead idiots, AFL fans seemed to come from all walks of life; all classes, all callings, even intellectuals and city people followed it. That was back in 1995 but I think you can still find those types of people into the game and I'm stoked that there is one sport in Australia that is a bit more upright walking. From the tone of the rest of your posts I think we know where you're at. Making gay jokes in a thread about an over-reaction to using homophobic terms. You can be unwashed if you like, but must you be such a friggin _______? (that word again, remember it's not legend)

[Austinnn]

I have no problem with sanctioning this kind of language, however I do have a huge problem with being made an example of, again, for something that would happen every single week at the footy no doubt.

The AFL has to create a definitive list of terms which are just completely unacceptable, not rely on which ones a particular umpire takes offence to.

Are the umpires now the 'naughty language' police? Will they report everything they deem offensive, or will they just prefer to change the course of matches through favouring one side?

Dean Margetts - Karma Police

I agree; I'm getting tired of us being vilified. It gives the impression that this sort of thing doesn't happen with the other 17 clubs which is rubbish. I suppose that the AFL considers that Milney is a cartoon villain now anyway, so if anyone is to be made an example of, it might as well be him. Poor guy cops it all the time, but if you keep opening your mouth, all you're doing is giving people another reason to hate you.

[gringo]

I agree with Austinn the world is pretty f***ed outside our shore because our "welfare State" allows us to have a society that the poor and the rich can live together. i have a friend who works for Google and he has to live part of the year in a gated community because they have to divide their society in the states. If you slip into the lower brackets of society any where else in the world your left to suffer. The USA has so many incarcerated people to support a private enterprise that needs people for income .7 of their population was in prison with another 4.5 million on probation.

Australia is a great place because we give a s*** about sharing the wealth around it doesn't mean there are s*** people that exploit it. We whinge when we have to wait for surgery in the rest of the world you don't pay you don't get. We have lots because we had the fore sight of paying superannuation and that is the real reason we are not in a major recession like the ret of the world.

If the pay off is a bit of a nanny state thats ok.

[SaintPav]

I agree with Austinn the world is pretty f***ed outside our shore because our "welfare State" allows us to have a society that the poor and the rich can live together. i have a friend who works for Google and he has to live part of the year in a gated community because they have to divide their society in the states. If you slip into the lower brackets of society any where else in the world your left to suffer. The USA has so many incarcerated people to support a private enterprise that needs people for income .7 of their population was in prison with another 4.5 million on probation.

Australia is a great place because we give a s*** about sharing the wealth around it doesn't mean there are s*** people that exploit it. We whinge when we have to wait for surgery in the rest of the world you don't pay you don't get. We have lots because we had the fore sight of paying superannuation and that is the real reason we are not in a major recession like the ret of the world.

If the pay off is a bit of a nanny state thats ok.

Australian exceptionalism at its finest. We will not avoid an economic catastrophe because of how great we are. We will get it in the neck in the end.

[Richter]

So, players should be hauled over the coals and fined if on a football field they call an opponent a girl, or insane?... blind?... dumb?

Firstly, the punishment is a mild rap over the knuckles in AFL terms. Secondly I'm not sure, but let me put it to you, would you endorse one of our players calling someone a spastic or a schizo?

[gringo]

I agree with Austinn the world is pretty f***ed outside our shore because our "welfare State" allows us to have a society that the poor and the rich can live together. i have a friend who works for Google and he has to live part of the year in a gated community because they have to divide their society in the states. If you slip into the lower brackets of society any where else in the world your left to suffer. The USA has so many incarcerated people to support a private enterprise that needs people for income .7 of their population was in prison with another 4.5 million on probation.

Australia is a great place because we give a s*** about sharing the wealth around it doesn't mean there are s*** people that exploit it. We whinge when we have to wait for surgery in the rest of the world you don't pay you don't get. We have lots because we had the fore sight of paying superannuation and that is the real reason we are not in a major recession like the ret of the world.

If the pay off is a bit of a nanny state thats ok.

Australian exceptionalism at its finest. We will not avoid an economic catastrophe because of how great we are. We will get it in the neck in the end.

Only because the others didn't regulate their markets and are all s*** though.

[Austinnn]

I agree with Austinn the world is pretty f***ed outside our shore because our "welfare State" allows us to have a society that the poor and the rich can live together. i have a friend who works for Google and he has to live part of the year in a gated community because they have to divide their society in the states. If you slip into the lower brackets of society any where else in the world your left to suffer. The USA has so many incarcerated people to support a private enterprise that needs people for income .7 of their population was in prison with another 4.5 million on probation.

Australia is a great place because we give a s*** about sharing the wealth around it doesn't mean there are s*** people that exploit it. We whinge when we have to wait for surgery in the rest of the world you don't pay you don't get. We have lots because we had the fore sight of paying superannuation and that is the real reason we are not in a major recession like the ret of the world.

If the pay off is a bit of a nanny state thats ok.

Australian exceptionalism at its finest. We will not avoid an economic catastrophe because of how great we are. We will get it in the neck in the end.

I don't think he is saying that Australia will circumnavigate economic crisis. We certainly won't avoid it by letting everyone take care of themselves. The richest parts of the population will of course, but the rest will die off. It is evolution in its most brutal form. Under the capitalist look after yourself model, the aboriginal communities would all die off of course, but we'd get to get tourists to come and check out their drawings and the rock, so that's ok. Without subsidies, many of the farms in Australia would wither away as well, so we'd have to import a lot more, meaning food prices would go up... just one of the realities associated with the removal of welfare. Like I said, it's not perfect, but it's better than the alternative, unless of course you are rich and then it's much worse than the alternative.

[Dr Spaceman]

I agree with Austinn the world is pretty f***ed outside our shore because our "welfare State" allows us to have a society that the poor and the rich can live together. i have a friend who works for Google and he has to live part of the year in a gated community because they have to divide their society in the states. If you slip into the lower brackets of society any where else in the world your left to suffer. The USA has so many incarcerated people to support a private enterprise that needs people for income .7 of their population was in prison with another 4.5 million on probation.

Australia is a great place because we give a s*** about sharing the wealth around it doesn't mean there are s*** people that exploit it. We whinge when we have to wait for surgery in the rest of the world you don't pay you don't get. We have lots because we had the fore sight of paying superannuation and that is the real reason we are not in a major recession like the ret of the world.

If the pay off is a bit of a nanny state thats ok.

Australian exceptionalism at its finest. We will not avoid an economic catastrophe because of how great we are. We will get it in the neck in the end.

Only because the others didn't regulate their markets and are all s*** though.

"This is supposed to be about me, ya Homos!"

[vacuous space]

"This is supposed to be about me, ya Homos!"

What are you going to do about it, eff-head?

[Scollop]

"This is supposed to be about me, ya Homos!"

[Enrico_Misso]

Are players really offended when in the heat of a game someone calls them a Horses Hoof?
Surely it is just harmless banter.
Same with swearing; if an opponent tells a player to "Eff Off" are they really almost reduced to tears?

Come-on.
It's just mind games.
If Mr. Dalai Lama is so offended by that harmless banter, then to be consistent the AFL should impose millions of dollars on the Collingwood fans who sledge Milne in an infinitely more serious way by accusing him of being a criminal (strange coming from them!)

[matrix]

so if i cant call him a shiela can i ask him if he enjoys wearing a skirt??
if he loses the plot i cant ask him if he has a gritty gina???

prob not

[Dis Believer]

'Sheila' - IMO not acceptable. I hate that in playgrounds the standard insult from boys to each other is to call the other 'a girl'... women have until recently been disenfranchised... domestic violence used to be sanctioned and in many parts of the world women really are second class citizens.

'Mental' - the perjorative use of this term ought to stop... again, the stereotyping and stigmatisation of people with mental illnesses really has gone on too long in our society

Racist and homophobic insults similarly are not acceptable.

'Short-arse', 'baldy', 'beardy'... whatever... I hardly think that people with those characteristics have been ritually and systematically subjected to denigration and an abrogation of their rights as human beings as those in the other groups have. Some of society's prevailing attitudes are clearly evident in this thread.

In case people were not aware, in Nazi Germany and their occupied countries gay people were sent to the gas chambers too.
Up until 30 years ago homosexuality was categorised as a mental disorder in the DSM (psychiatric diagnostic classification).
In most of the world, including Australia, gay people are not allowed to marry (which IMO is an absolute disgrace).
----------------
If the above views make some people think I am 'overly-PC' then sobeit... for my part this thread makes me acutely aware of just how conservative mainstream Australia remains. I attended a talk this week that was given by a former Chief Justice in Victoira when he made this very point (with regards to Human Rights). When people with whose political views I usually am sympathy with on this forum are joining in the reactionary throng then I realise just how right Alistair Nicholson is.

You must be having us on?? For a start, boys sledging each other insport by calling an opponent a "sheila" or a girl is actually accurate. Fact, males are, on average, bigger, stronger & faster than females and with better spatial abilities that means they will perform ball sports,in paricular, better. So,on average, in a contact ball sport for a male to imply that his opponent is performing to the level of a female means he is not up to standard for a male. That's biology, like it or lump it, that is how it is. You can try and ignore it or pretend otherwise, but you cannot deny reality.
I don't know what the rest of your rant relates to but, since the 70's in our the western world, women have had a gowing community voice and place, to the point that "womens" issues and status enjoy much greater staus than mens. Check out the government research funding into breast cancer and prostate cancer if you like, and then consider that both kill appoximately the same number of people each year. And I don't know what domestice violence has to do with anything, but since you brought it up, approximately 40% of all domestic abuse is committed by females - fact! I recall the govenment ran a campaign to stop violence against women - should I assume from that that violence against men is acceptable? More men die as a result of violence every year than women, so why the focus on women?

The rest I cannot be bothered with, but attitudes like yours are gradually casuing our community to become less able to function. Instead of teaching people to cope with things, you want to bubble wrap the outside world so that no-one's feelings get hurt, it ridiculous and unrealisitic. Do you teach your kids to watch where they're going or do you put padding on the corners of all your furniture??

[matrix]

bit of a girly response to be honest TB

[satchmo]

bit of a girly response to be honest TB

Yeah, what a nancy boy!