Milne and OBrien investigation

[SaintPav]

O'Brien doesn't have a premiership medallion around his neck by being Mr Nice guy...FFS some of you idealistic twats wake up. I'm especially disappointed in you Austin. I thought you were one of the smarter ones on this site..

[whiskers3614]

O'Brien doesn't have a premiership medallion around his neck by being Mr Nice guy...FFS some of you idealistic twats wake up. I'm especially disappointed in you Austin. I thought you were one of the smarter ones on this site..

That must explain our lack of flags "niceness"

[Austinnn]

* Yes, the world has changed/gone mad/whatever. People said exactly the same thing hundreds of years ago when society let women vote, or when they stopped slavery. Its called progression. And they reacted the same way to what I just said as you probably just have. Hopefully your kids will be a bit more with it. Yes, it comes close to an Orwellian scenario, but I think that society is trying to redress the crimes of the past a bit and I think eventually we'll find a balance. Please be patient.

Lame analogy. Those things were a positive change to society and removed barricades for equality. Stopping someone from calling his opponent a name on the football field - or trying to completely eradicate the use of such vaguely pejorative terms in wider society - is inane and symptomatic of a society pandering too far to sensitivities in some ludicrous attempt to ensure that no one is ever offended by anyone ever again. A noble aspiration perhaps, but still ridiculous... People need to toughen up and accept that the world is never going to be a perfect place, and worry more about their own actions and the things that they can control rather than getting upset over the most trivial of matters such as this. In the overall scheme of things this incident literally means nothing. The nanny state has well and truly arrived if calling someone a name during a football match is front page news...

Fair enough, but if you accept that gay people are as equal as black people or women, then you have to accept that we can't continue as a society to allow the demonisation from a bygone age to pollute our present.

My point was some people see the nanny state over-reacting, others see society trying to recalibrate its ethical compass. Some people are driving this change, others are resisting, just as many resisted the humanisation of black slaves or the acceptance of women as decision-makers in society. Perhaps those other examples are a little more direct, but I can see the deeper significance of this moment, even if the action itself was as you say, inane.

Yes, we know Stephen Milne called Harry O'Brien a f-ing homo because that's a standard insult for a man who rejects standard macho blokeyness, not because Milney hates gay people.

But why is this reference to gay people an insult? Why should being gay mean being s***?

Personally, I think the umpire was just annoyed by Milne's uncultured aggression, and reported him as a knee-jerk reaction in his own hotblooded moment. If he really wanted to oppose homophobia, Margetts should have reported Western Society for vilifying gays so much over its evolution that a gay reference should be hurtful. Unfortunately he's in no position to do so, so is treating the symptom not the cause.

But still, at some stage, someone has to say, look it just isn't right to use these words as insults, and stand up for what he believes in. The next time a player gets upset, maybe they'll just settle with a word like 'idiot' or 'turd' or whatever instead of using words which everyone knows now are off-limits in a public arena. Will that help gay people be accepted? Probably not, but another brick in the wall will be taken down.

You think that we should just keep doing what we've always done, I take it? As long as we don't actually treat anyone in an inferior manner, we are free to use whatever insult we please? Homo? Nigger? Bitch? Kike? Spastic? Nip? Slope? Boong? Faggot? Mong? Whore? These words are just words and if they hurt your feelings, that's your problem, is that it? In fact I bet a lot of people read those words and are actually amused, bathing in the sordid richness of their taboo, the same way we get excited when we see someone arguing or fighting in public. I don't mean to spoil anyone's fun. Sadly, these words still endorse inferior treatment of different people in society. Saying that these words aren't acceptable is forcing people to confront their prejudices. We can still be as unfair without these words, but surely it has made you reflect about the way you treat a gay person if you refer to them as a Homo. Maybe that reflection will cause you to question or even change your ideas or behaviour. That's all that is needed really.

You're absolutely right when you say that the world will never be perfect, and neither will we be, and yes, we should worry more about our own actions. This incident is not homophobic, but it is a symptom of the homophobia that different sections of the world are trying to break free from. It's on the front page of the paper because of the newspaper's desire for a story - any story - especially one that makes a football club look bad. It satisfies our stereotypes of footballers, and of non-Saints fans prejudices against Milney, so it's an attractive story to the media and people eat it up. Then more people can get enraged about the over-reaction and it gets even more attention. The media wins, Collingwood wins, Stephen Milne loses, we lose as people, and I've lost my morning. But the more we complain, the bigger the hole we dig for ourselves as a club. We have 2 options, to break away from society, inspire all out revolution and create a new world where we can be as offensive as we bloody like, or to just shut up and accept that we got caught out again, move on and don't give anyone any more ammo. The club did the right thing.

[Austinnn]

O'Brien doesn't have a premiership medallion around his neck by being Mr Nice guy...FFS some of you idealistic twats wake up. I'm especially disappointed in you Austin. I thought you were one of the smarter ones on this site..

I don't understand this, so feel free to educate me Pav.

Im sorry to disappoint, but my message has been consistent during my time on this site.

[markp]

Can they call someone a 'shiella', or 'mental', or 'short-arse', or 'baldy'?... all are technically vilification.

Homo?

What a joke.

And Harry O was going out with that Fuzzy chick for a long time, so while context may be relevant I don't think it comes into play here.

'Sheila' - IMO not acceptable. I hate that in playgrounds the standard insult from boys to each other is to call the other 'a girl'... women have until recently been disenfranchised... domestic violence used to be sanctioned and in many parts of the world women really are second class citizens.

'Mental' - the perjorative use of this term ought to stop... again, the stereotyping and stigmatisation of people with mental illnesses really has gone on too long in our society

Racist and homophobic insults similarly are not acceptable.

'Short-arse', 'baldy', 'beardy'... whatever... I hardly think that people with those characteristics have been ritually and systematically subjected to denigration and an abrogation of their rights as human beings as those in the other groups have. Some of society's prevailing attitudes are clearly evident in this thread.

In case people were not aware, in Nazi Germany and their occupied countries gay people were sent to the gas chambers too.
Up until 30 years ago homosexuality was categorised as a mental disorder in the DSM (psychiatric diagnostic classification).
In most of the world, including Australia, gay people are not allowed to marry (which IMO is an absolute disgrace).

----------------

If the above views make some people think I am 'overly-PC' then sobeit... for my part this thread makes me acutely aware of just how conservative mainstream Australia remains. I attended a talk this week that was given by a former Chief Justice in Victoira when he made this very point (with regards to Human Rights). When people with whose political views I usually am sympathy with on this forum are joining in the reactionary throng then I realise just how right Alistair Nicholson is.

So, players should be hauled over the coals and fined if on a football field they call an opponent a girl, or insane?... blind?... dumb?

[SaintPav]

O'Brien doesn't have a premiership medallion around his neck by being Mr Nice guy...FFS some of you idealistic twats wake up. I'm especially disappointed in you Austin. I thought you were one of the smarter ones on this site..

I don't understand this, so feel free to educate me Pav.

Im sorry to disappoint, but my message has been consistent during my time on this site.

The AFL are full of sh!t and are hypocrites. They cannot possibly hope to stamp this out. It's a total joke and Milne is a scapegoat. It was only brought up because the AFL decided to bring it to everyone's attention. They have now created a rod for their own back.

[3rd generation saint]

Lets not forget the little tribute paid for by the filth to a guy who went out and got himself stinking drunk then drove himself into the back of a truck.
Funny how there's no comment on that from the Thought Police.

[terry smith rules]

Austinn your posts are outstanding. If I knew who you were I would buy you a drink. It saddens me to read the stuff here and listen to calls to SEN.

I tip my hat

[whiskers3614]

Would pillow biter or shirt lifter been more acceptable?
Can't believe this over sensitivity AND I'm not a Milne fan!

[Austinnn]

O'Brien doesn't have a premiership medallion around his neck by being Mr Nice guy...FFS some of you idealistic twats wake up. I'm especially disappointed in you Austin. I thought you were one of the smarter ones on this site..

The AFL are full of sh!t and are hypocrites. They cannot possibly hope to stamp this out. It's a total joke and Milne is a scapegoat. It was only brought up because the AFL decided to bring it to everyone's attention. They have now created a rod for their own back.

I agree. It's a line in the sand. They can't stop it, but they have to be seen to be intolerant. You know how it works, Pav. The police will never completely stop drink driving or speeding either, but they have to discourage it. They know people have radar detectors, they know what it's like in the country. But if they do enough advertising, make a few token arrests, people will understand that they shouldn't do it. They might still do it, but others might reconsider.

Harry O admits using similar language himself, here http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/m ... 23zrw.html I have too. We all have probably at one stage. But this is about making people know that it won't continue to be tolerated, and luckily for the AFL it comes at the same time they need to divert attention from a substantial umpiring mistake that has probably helped to deny St Kilda finals for the first time since 2007, and yet another footballer on drugs.

It's a trumped-up charge, but it's an opportunity for the AFL to put down a marker, and unfortunately we were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Leo.J]

Can they call someone a 'shiella', or 'mental', or 'short-arse', or 'baldy'?... all are technically vilification.

Homo?

What a joke.

And Harry O was going out with that Fuzzy chick for a long time, so while context may be relevant I don't think it comes into play here.

'Sheila' - IMO not acceptable. I hate that in playgrounds the standard insult from boys to each other is to call the other 'a girl'... women have until recently been disenfranchised... domestic violence used to be sanctioned and in many parts of the world women really are second class citizens.

'Mental' - the perjorative use of this term ought to stop... again, the stereotyping and stigmatisation of people with mental illnesses really has gone on too long in our society

Racist and homophobic insults similarly are not acceptable.

'Short-arse', 'baldy', 'beardy'... whatever... I hardly think that people with those characteristics have been ritually and systematically subjected to denigration and an abrogation of their rights as human beings as those in the other groups have. Some of society's prevailing attitudes are clearly evident in this thread.

In case people were not aware, in Nazi Germany and their occupied countries gay people were sent to the gas chambers too.
Up until 30 years ago homosexuality was categorised as a mental disorder in the DSM (psychiatric diagnostic classification).
In most of the world, including Australia, gay people are not allowed to marry (which IMO is an absolute disgrace).

----------------

If the above views make some people think I am 'overly-PC' then sobeit... for my part this thread makes me acutely aware of just how conservative mainstream Australia remains. I attended a talk this week that was given by a former Chief Justice in Victoira when he made this very point (with regards to Human Rights). When people with whose political views I usually am sympathy with on this forum are joining in the reactionary throng then I realise just how right Alistair Nicholson is.

So, players should be hauled over the coals and fined if on a football field they call an opponent a girl, or insane?... blind?... dumb?

I agree, it's gone too far.

People are far too soft these days.

The AFL don't really give a s*** anyway it's all about keeping up appearances.

They've hung Milney out to dry in order to make themselves look good on the issue.

An issue that is very important, but imo cheapened by the way this has been dealt with and sensationalised.

Calling someone a homo is hardly a homophobic taunt unless,

Milne knows Harry O is gay and is attempting denegrate him, otherwise it is just a crude word.

Just for the record, I have someone who is gay in my family, I also have inlaws from asia and europe, I've also had an immediate family member take their own life.

So potentially alot could offend me, but at the end of the day they are only words, they can hurt, but they don't hurt anyware near as much as a beating, a bullet, or the death of a loved one.

Reality check people someone called someone a name.

Harden up.

[terry smith rules]

Lets not forget the little tribute paid for by the filth to a guy who went out and got himself stinking drunk then drove himself into the back of a truck.
Funny how there's no comment on that from the Thought Police.

mods act on this

As supporters of a great club, we should be above this crap

Totally unacceptable post again

[SaintPav]

When Malthouse called Milne a rapist then lied about it, what was his fine? I'd like to know.

[whiskers3614]

Just wondering is there room at Docklands for a segregated area for the SNAG's on this site to be protected from the rest of us bogan supporters.
An area adjacent to the prayer room they no doubt advocate perhaps?

[dragit]

When Malthouse called Milne a rapist then lied about it, what his fine? I'd like to know.

$7,500

[SaintPav]

O'Brien doesn't have a premiership medallion around his neck by being Mr Nice guy...FFS some of you idealistic twats wake up. I'm especially disappointed in you Austin. I thought you were one of the smarter ones on this site..

The AFL are full of sh!t and are hypocrites. They cannot possibly hope to stamp this out. It's a total joke and Milne is a scapegoat. It was only brought up because the AFL decided to bring it to everyone's attention. They have now created a rod for their own back.

I agree. It's a line in the sand. They can't stop it, but they have to be seen to be intolerant. You know how it works, Pav. The police will never completely stop drink driving or speeding either, but they have to discourage it. They know people have radar detectors, they know what it's like in the country. But if they do enough advertising, make a few token arrests, people will understand that they shouldn't do it. They might still do it, but others might reconsider.

Harry O admits using similar language himself, here http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/m ... 23zrw.html I have too. We all have probably at one stage. But this is about making people know that it won't continue to be tolerated, and luckily for the AFL it comes at the same time they need to divert attention from a substantial umpiring mistake that has probably helped to deny St Kilda finals for the first time since 2007, and yet another footballer on drugs.

It's a trumped-up charge, but it's an opportunity for the AFL to put down a marker, and unfortunately we were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

You are a thoughtful poster but I am ideologically opposed to this post. It should have been done privately not arbitrarily and then naming and shaming. It is a witch hunt and a disgrace.

[Austinnn]

An issue that is very important, but imo cheapened by the way this has been dealt with and sensationalised.

Calling someone a homo is hardly a homophobic taunt unless,

Milne knows Harry O is gay and is attempting denegrate him, otherwise it is just a crude word.

Just for the record, I have someone who is gay in my family, I also have inlaws from asia and europe, I've also had an immediate family member take their own life.

So potentially alot could offend me, but at the end of the day they are only words, they can hurt, but they don't hurt anyware near as much as a beating, a bullet, or the death of a loved one.

Reality check people someone called someone a name.

Harden up.

Agree. Just an insult. I'm sure even if Stephen Milne's best mate or brother was gay, he'd still use that insult without making a connection. The AFL knows it, and so does everybody else.

Words don't hurt everyone, but they do hurt some people, and that's as good enough as a reason to ask people to consider changing the words we use. I'm sure Stephen Milne doesn't mind not using the word Homo or not, he's not going to court to fiercely protect his right to use that word. Didn't need to go to an official complaint, but I suppose that's the only way that Milney would actually listen. If the ump had just said "Please don't use that word it's offensive", do you imagine that Milney would have said "Oh sorry, excuse me, I wasn't thinking."

You're right, it's just a word, a name. You want the freedom to use whatever words you want. If you upset other people, that's because they are too soft. I partially agree, but I can also see how there needs to be an official line on the matter, can't you?

Thanks Pav, and I agree with what you are saying. It should have been done in private, and then the AFL should have made it clear later to all clubs that words like this wouldn't be tolerated and players caught using them would be made an example of.

As far as the SNAGS comment goes, (haven't heard that term in a while!), maybe should be a room that intolerant reactionaries can go to to avoid the displeasure of a changing world and different types of people that are trying to all live together. Perhaps a cave or bunker of some sort?

[satchmo]

If OH&S get onto this idea all the players will have to wear hardhats, orange vest, and protective goggles.

Not to mention having both male and female toilets in the center of the ground. And perhaps a separate one for the princess.

[whiskers3614]

Indeed, the outer at the football used to serve us intolerant reactionaries but now even that has been taken away!

[Austinnn]

Would pillow biter or shirt lifter been more acceptable?
Can't believe this over sensitivity AND I'm not a Milne fan!

Yes but you are a fair dinkum ___________.

What's the word I'm thinking of? HINT; it's not 'legend'

[Austinnn]

Indeed, the outer at the football used to serve us intolerant reactionaries but now even that has been taken away!

That's right, we're coming for you, and we're going to drive you into the desert. You're not even safe in your own mind now, we're inventing ways to police your very thoughts. Agggghhhhhh!

On the lighter side of things, you can always try suburban football, or Rugby League.

[satchmo]

I remember a big game against the bears a few years back and one of the kray bros screaming "you f***** poof" in Blakes face very obviously on the broadcast. The second after he says it the siren goes and he holds out his hand and says "good game mate".

Point is: if they make this retrospective they could make poverty history. Oh and get back at all those horrid people that told the truth about dementrio.

[whiskers3614]

Indeed, the outer at the football used to serve us intolerant reactionaries but now even that has been taken away!

That's right, we're coming for you, and we're going to drive you into the desert. You're not even safe in your own mind now, we're inventing ways to police your very thoughts. Agggghhhhhh!

On the lighter side of things, you can always try suburban football, or Rugby League.

Why don't we try something else:
You go treehugging,whale saving and Gay marriage witnessing and leave the footy to the great unwashed!

[SaintPav]

An issue that is very important, but imo cheapened by the way this has been dealt with and sensationalised.

Calling someone a homo is hardly a homophobic taunt unless,

Milne knows Harry O is gay and is attempting denegrate him, otherwise it is just a crude word.

Just for the record, I have someone who is gay in my family, I also have inlaws from asia and europe, I've also had an immediate family member take their own life.

So potentially alot could offend me, but at the end of the day they are only words, they can hurt, but they don't hurt anyware near as much as a beating, a bullet, or the death of a loved one.

Reality check people someone called someone a name.

Harden up.

Agree. Just an insult. I'm sure even if Stephen Milne's best mate or brother was gay, he'd still use that insult without making a connection. The AFL knows it, and so does everybody else.

Words don't hurt everyone, but they do hurt some people, and that's as good enough as a reason to ask people to consider changing the words we use. I'm sure Stephen Milne doesn't mind not using the word Homo or not, he's not going to court to fiercely protect his right to use that word. Didn't need to go to an official complaint, but I suppose that's the only way that Milney would actually listen. If the ump had just said "Please don't use that word it's offensive", do you imagine that Milney would have said "Oh sorry, excuse me, I wasn't thinking."

You're right, it's just a word, a name. You want the freedom to use whatever words you want. If you upset other people, that's because they are too soft. I partially agree, but I can also see how there needs to be an official line on the matter, can't you?

Thanks Pav, and I agree with what you are saying. It should have been done in private, and then the AFL should have made it clear later to all clubs that words like this wouldn't be tolerated and players caught using them would be made an example of.

As far as the SNAGS comment goes, (haven't heard that term in a while!), maybe should be a room that intolerant reactionaries can go to to avoid the displeasure of a changing world and different types of people that are trying to all live together. Perhaps a cave or bunker of some sort?

Come on Austin, the welfare state is a massive failure.

[Leo.J]

An issue that is very important, but imo cheapened by the way this has been dealt with and sensationalised.

Calling someone a homo is hardly a homophobic taunt unless,

Milne knows Harry O is gay and is attempting denegrate him, otherwise it is just a crude word.

Just for the record, I have someone who is gay in my family, I also have inlaws from asia and europe, I've also had an immediate family member take their own life.

So potentially alot could offend me, but at the end of the day they are only words, they can hurt, but they don't hurt anyware near as much as a beating, a bullet, or the death of a loved one.

Reality check people someone called someone a name.

Harden up.

...You're right, it's just a word, a name. You want the freedom to use whatever words you want. If you upset other people, that's because they are too soft. I partially agree, but I can also see how there needs to be an official line on the matter, can't you?...

Don't get me wrong Austinn, I don't condone racism or bigotry, I've got kids and would tear them a new one if they used those words, but they also know that there are people out there who do use them, and you can't control them or what they do... what you can control is your own actions and mind set.

So what I'm saying is that I don't use those words, and I don't really condone them. But if someone chooses to uses them towards me I don't let it get to me.