Raph and the "Race Card".

[White Winmar]

Recent events have moved to write about Raph Clarke and the way he polarises our fans, especially around the issue of race. There are some on this forum who immediately attack posters who criticise Raph on the basis that their criticisms and opinions are based on his race. I'm the first to admit that I'm not a fan of Raph the footballer, but that my judgement of him is certainly not based on his race.

I'm happy to be corrected on this, but I don't believe anyone on this forum has ever racially abused Raph, or suggested that any of his shortcomings are based on his race. I've heard plenty of criticism of Raph at games, and I've thrown my two-bob's worth in, but I've never heard him racially abused by our fans. Some posters on SS claim they have heard our fans do this and I'm disgusted at the thought of this happening.

I had the good fortune of watching Raph play before he was drafted by the saints and he certainly looked a promising type. He was athletic, quick and had sound skills. The knock on him from some recruiters I spoke to, was that they doubted how much further he could improve. He was one of those kids who was more physically developed than his peers in the juniors and he often dominated, but the feeling was that once others caught up to him, he would no longer be regarded as outstanding. That, and an ordinary U/18 carnival in the year of his draft (Injury and suspension IIRC) saw him relegated from a near certain top 3, down to the number 8 position we claimed him with. He may have slipped further if it hadn't been for the familial connection he had through Xavier. Having said that, most I spoke to agreed he was going to go in the first round.

Unfortunately, a combination of a fragile and injury prone body, and the effects of epilepsy, have in my opinion, conspired to torpedo Raph's career and prevented him from fulfilling his potential. The same misfortune with chronic injuries also befell his hugely talented brother, Xavier.

Over the weekend a couple of posters had a go at me over criticism of Raph and made it quite clear that they felt my criticism was racially based. They even pointed to my moniker of "White Winmar" as proof that I was racist. I have had similar criticism of my tag in the past. My tag was a nickname bestowed on me by my footballing team mates. In the great Australian tradition of irony and sarcasm, I was branded, "The White Winmar" because I was a large, slow moving CHF, who in terms of physical prowess was the exact opposite to the sublimely gifted and elegant Winmar. Nicky was also my favourite saints player at the time. The name stuck, but it was certainly never intended to be offensive, nor do I believe it is.

The hysterically PC responses we get on occasion do more harm than good. Ironically, political correctness is simply another form of censorship. Like all censors, the PC crowd adopts a position of moral superiority, while trampling on the very rights to free speech they claim to hold so dear. They are also incredibly adept at drawing ridiculously long bows of so-called logic when imposing their standards on others.

As for Raph, in my opinion, he is simply not good enough to be in our best 22 and I believe there is plenty of evidence to support this stance. I'm only too happy, however, to bow to the greater inside knowledge of the coach and match committee, if they decide he's good enough to be brought back into the team, or retained on the list for next year. I don't bag our players, not even Raph, as the opposition fans can do this well enough without our support. I respect the fact that Raph has been good enough to make it onto an AFL list and play 80+ games. I certainly don't consider him to be a lesser person, or footballer, because of his race. I doubt there are many, if any, on this forum who would carry a racist view of him.

[SainterK]

I'd like to see him developed forward of centre.

[WinnersOnly]

Raph is a wonderful young individual who always has time for saints fans, however we may have seen the last of his time with the Saints. I wish him well no matter what he does in the future!

[gringo]

I don't play the race card but find the attacks on him astounding. same goes for any of our players though, it's like stupid people sit back and watch everyone else have a kick and when no retribution comes the cowards run in for their turn.


maybe just piss weak bullies with little respect for people doing their high profile job to the best of their ability not racists.

[plugger66]

Yep i dont think it is race thing at all. Kosi gets as many threads about his form. i certainly have never heard anything at the footy about race. A mate of mine cant stand him as a player. He is Moroccan.

[mr six o'clock]

I've been on this forum for 6 years and i carn't remember any times when other posters have made racist comments .
However there may be some examples .
I follow the views of nigel powers " there's only two thing i hate in this world . People who are intolerant of other peoples cultures and the Dutch ! "

[SaintPav]

WW, you and others including myself have a right to bag Raph without being accused of being racist. This goes for an other player including Kosi.

I personally take issue with posters on this site who only come on to here to razz other posters up by bagging players. Our own cheer squad moderator is a case in point. I can't believe he is allowed to be a moderator.

BTW, I despise the term "political correctness" and they way it is used by some people to justify bad manners and disrespectful behavior.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

The comment I can recall is usually " I thought aboriginal players were meant to be good" .. I don't think it's racist to bag him I just think it ilinformed to bag him .. I also think the fact he has that laconic look about him that he comes under criticism (gehrig used to cop the same from west coast fans when he was there)

[bigcarl]

For what it's worth Winmar, I don't think you're racist and I apologise for any offence caused last week.

Look, Raph is out of the side and may have played his last game of AFL football. A shame in my opinion and a waste of talent.

I don't see any reason for the fans who wanted him out to continue to bag him. They've got what they wanted, which ought to be enough.

Many will remember his last game for him being run down from behind while trying (probably under strong direction from the coaches) to give us some run out of defence. My enduring memory of that game is of Raph waiting courageously under what used to be called a "hospital ball" and being comprehensively pole-axed by an opponent, getting up, brushing himself down, and continuing as though nothing had happened.

I feel he strongly polarises supporters. Some see only his mistakes, others are prepared to overlook them and give him credit for the positives he brings to the side, of which there are many.

[bigcarl]

For what it's worth Winmar, I don't think you're racist and I apologise for any offence caused last week.

Look, Raph is out of the side and may have played his last game of AFL football. A shame in my opinion and a waste of talent.

I don't see any reason for the fans who wanted him out to continue to bag him. They've got what they wanted, which ought to be enough.

Many will remember his last game for him being run down from behind while trying (probably under strong direction from the coaches) to give us some run out of defence.

My enduring memory of that game is of Raph waiting courageously under what used to be called a "hospital ball" and being comprehensively pole-axed by an opponent, getting up, brushing himself down, and continuing as though nothing had happened.

I feel he strongly polarises supporters. Some see only his mistakes, others are prepared to overlook them and give him credit for the positives he brings to the side, of which there are many.

[whiskers3614]

Raph is just like Dawson in that they both have some positives but their negatives are so glaring and so repetitive that I used to instantly panic when either was in the play.

[Con Gorozidis]

Well written post ww ( great punctuation too). I certainly dont think ur racist and some people do get hysterical when it comes to these things and often defend against nothing on the 'just in case' basis.
I think as other people have pointed out his player type is the reason he cops a lot of threads on here . He is is kind of in between height. He is kind of fast but kind of slow. He is very courageous and does awesome spoils with those long arms. He often makes great position but then there is the infamous run-downs from behind which dont look the best.
Anyhow he played 100 games more than most people ever did. He should be proud and always welcome at the saints. Seems like a top bloke and im sure he will do well in other areas i life post footy.

[The Fireman]

I have the solution...If I call a black player crap and someone calls me a racist I simply smack them in the gob.. problem solved

[Sobraz]

Great post WW, and I certainly agree with your points re. Raph no longer is worth persisting with, from the position of my armchair.

No slight on him as a player or person, just footy opinion...

I've noticed the racist card thrown at some regular, fair minded posters who believe that Raph just isn't up to it, and it's unfair and small minded. Unfortuntly, sometimes that sort of mud sticks, no matter how far off the mark..

[saintspremiers]

I'd like to see him developed forward of centre for GC

Edited for accuracy!

I think he'd do well playing for GC. Needs a change of scenery. He's done at St.Kilda unfortunately.

[bergholt]

Raph is just like Dawson in that they both have some positives but their negatives are so glaring and so repetitive that I used to instantly panic when either was in the play.

it's hard to argue too much with that. i feel much more comfortable with tommy simpkin on the ball than i ever did with raph, and they're about the same size and skill level. raph is probably a bit quicker than tommy but i'm not sure that pace difference comes to the fore that much.

i'm not sure it had to be this way, but i think for various reasons across three coaches raph ended up in a role which doesn't best use his gifts. k might be right in wanting him forward of centre, maybe that would have been better, though at this point in his career it seems unlikely to happen at st kilda.

[borderbarry]

I have always compared him with Sam Gilbert. Both tall, young defenders who like to run with the ball,
and both players prone to similar mistakes. I have noticed that both make their mistakes early in the game, and improve as the game goes on, so I believe they both suffer from nerves early in games.
Now week after week, and year after year, we have had people bagging Raph for errors he made during the game, but never any mention of Gilbert's. It is usually the same people bagging him too. Unfortunately it looks like the coaching staff have taken notice of Raph's unpopularity with the fans, (or some of them).
Anyway, I just feel the treatment of young Raph by fans on this site has been unfair and unnecessary.

[Old Mate]

I have always compared him with Sam Gilbert. Both tall, young defenders who like to run with the ball,
and both players prone to similar mistakes. I have noticed that both make their mistakes early in the game, and improve as the game goes on, so I believe they both suffer from nerves early in games.
Now week after week, and year after year, we have had people bagging Raph for errors he made during the game, but never any mention of Gilbert's. It is usually the same people bagging him too. Unfortunately it looks like the coaching staff have taken notice of Raph's unpopularity with the fans, (or some of them).
Anyway, I just feel the treatment of young Raph by fans on this site has been unfair and unnecessary.

You Barry are the one that I regularly see play the 'race card' when the post you are replying to doesn't warrant that sought of response. I think people that don't bag Raph can be the racists.....Cos of his skin colour he deserves special treatment.

Gilbert gets his fair share of criticism as well, especially over the last two seasons.

Do you really think the coaching staff give two s***s about random fans at a game and on an internet forum and pick the team based off their opinion?

[borderbarry]

I dont see why the coaching staff would not pick up on it. The media has from time to time.
You may be right. I may be a bit of a racist. Most Australians are. I like to think though that any racist feelings I do have are not directed towards our indigenous people.

[Saints43]

I haven't heard a racist comment at the footy since 1995(?) when Nicky carved Richmond up at princes park.
When we stood at Moorabbin it was commonplace (from Saints supportes).
I did hear someone accused of being a racist in the VB bar (or whatever it's called - the glass fronted bar on level 2) for calling Scarlett a golliwog!
But I have sat in the country club section for over ten years now...

[SainterK]

I haven't heard a racist comment at the footy since 1995(?) when Nicky carved Richmond up at princes park.
When we stood at Moorabbin it was commonplace (from Saints supportes).
I did hear someone accused of being a racist in the VB bar (or whatever it's called - the glass fronted bar on level 2) for calling Scarlett a golliwog!
But I have sat in the country club section for over ten years now...

Last year when we played the Cats, someone kept yelling 'Black Ablett' everytime Varcoe got the ball and even Cats fans showed displeasure.

[Dr Spaceman]

I'd like to see him developed forward of centre.

I’ve also thought this for a long time SainterK.

My desire is based on my observations of indigenous players, and as such, there is a risk that it may be considered by some as being racist. I certainly don’t believe it is.

One definition of Racism is: “The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races”.

Now if that definition is expanded to read “all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race that make them different” then I’m probably in a bit of trouble.

Anyway, my observation of indigenous players is similar to many other people who note their flair; their speed; their agility; their ability to do the unbelievable. In short; their magic.

Although there are exceptions to any rule, my 40 years of VFL/AFL watching has not revealed very many indigenous players who play regular defensive roles. Probably because they don’t fit the “dour” mould that has been the preferred option for many backline positions over the years. Or because the coaches have wanted to use their magic as an attacking weapon rather than as a defensive stopper. Whatever the reasons it does appear that the majority of indigenous players are more suited to roles other than the close checking, negating positions of the back half.

So with that in mind I would have liked to see Raph get more opportunities in the front half rather than being asked to defend an opponent or to stand under those packs waiting to get crunched.

Would it have made any difference to where he is now? Is it too late to reinvent him? Who knows?

Anyway in finishing I’ll quote the great Jerry Seinfeld: “If I like their race, how can that be racist?”

[jays]

always the race card maybe he just aint good enough

[MrCordz]

I'd like to see him developed forward of centre.

Sounds good in theory - but you need a "goal instinct" that Raph certainly doesn't have - like throwing CJ into a forward pocket - Yikes!

[MrCordz]

I dont see why the coaching staff would not pick up on it. The media has from time to time.
You may be right. I may be a bit of a racist. Most Australians are. I like to think though that any racist feelings I do have are not directed towards our indigenous people.

Maybe so on the border, Barry but don't speak for the rest of us Pal.