Boring Wins v Entertaining Losses

[SainterK]

You roll your eyes again?

It's my opinion.

No I don't think you expect them not to kick them, but I hardly think you can feign surprise that they missed based on history.

And for what it's worth, no I wouldn't be surprised if some guys find their way out of the side this year due to poor kicking, I don't think Scott will have the same 'I don't coach skill errors' approach to Lyon.

I also won't laud him this week, as unrelated to this, he showed to much respect to the GC the week previous and should of rested seniors players. He also went in to tall, taking out Saad/Newnes for Fisher/Ben.

They are different people, different coaches, and yes this thread is too early because you have made a definitive call on the current coaches style.

I think you calling someone a revisionist is provoking, because it's their opinion, and only revisionsist according to you because it doesn't conform with your own.

[dragit]

Maybe a side with the attack of Riewolt, Gehrig, Milne, Hamil & the midfield of Hayes, Harves, NDS, Ball, Montagna should have won a handful of flags under a better coach than GT and Lyon?

Both coaches had some absolute superstars in their prime, we were so spooked after GT that we hired the most defensively minded man ever to be involved in the game. Maybe a coach somewhere in between was needed, we'll never know. 2009 was amazing, no doubt, but none of the other 5 years were anywhere near the same dominance.

I don't think Watters can fairly be compared to the past 2 coaches, at this rate he doesn't have a single All Australian (form-wise this year), the better half of the list is now well past it's best.

AFIAC we are re-building, 12 - 0 would be great, but is a completely unrealistic expectation. If you expect to be on top every year then you are setting yourself up for extreme disappointment...

[The Craw]

This is what I am reading - a loser mentality where as long as we are scoring a lot, you are happy.

Is this correct or am I reading all this defence of our poor position incorrectly and all this contentment is for some other indefinable reason?

Not correct at all..... I would be safe in saying that all players were not injured during 2007. I personally prefer how the side is playing in 2012, which is Watters first year, to 2007 which was Lyons first year.

We will all see how that turns out in the next 2 years.

So the question is, do you prefer 2007 to 2012 ?

Thats wasn't the question at all.

We had a horrific run with soft tissue injuries in 2007, a legacy of the Thomas coaching regime that cost us a shot in 2004 and 2005.

You mentioned the Hawthorn game in 2007. Only Raymond from the WHOLE LIST, was available and wasn't selected. The rest were injured.

In contrast, Watters took a fully fit list from Lyon, added pace in Saad, Milera, Newness, Stanley etc and has had very few injuries all season. Hs had an extremely soft draw and we stand at 6-6.

You obviously dont understand the OP. It was based on the absurd notion that Friday night was acceptable and an honourable loss, like Richmond was an honourable loss, and Port, or that the umpire conspired against the Saints and Watters is not at fault at all. Everyone just happy that we are kicking goals

So i take it from you attitude you didn't like the fact we contested in 2008, 2009, and 2010 in the top four and you got the chance to go to two GF's in a row - AS A DIRECT RESULT OF THE LYON GAMEPLAN BEING EXECUTED.

Since Lyon left is this revionistt BS about Lyon destroying our chance to win a flag which is patent BS.

Embracing mediocrity at 6-6 and critisisng Lyon is the mark of the loser mentality of the perennially defeated and beaten. If we could defend with half of the Lyon gameplan we would have beaten Port, Froa and Richmond and be 9-3 not 6-6.

Lyon is demonised while 6-6 is hailed as acceptable.

Go figure???

Crikey this is hard work ...... yes of course I would prefer 2008/2009/2010 to St Kilda circa 2012.

But to compare 2012 to those particular years is just absurd.

As a reference point to at least gauge a fair assessment would be 2007 v 2012, which is what I base this year on and yes, I like what I am seeing in Watters first year compared to Lyons first year.

I take it from your attitude you are much happier with Lyons first year.... which hey, whatever yanks your chain !!

[saintsRrising]

He also went in to tall, taking out Saad/Newnes for Fisher/Ben.

.

The problem was not that Ben made us too tall, the problem was that Ben played very poorly.

[SainterK]

He also went in to tall, taking out Saad/Newnes for Fisher/Ben.

.

The problem was not that Ben made us too tall, the problem was that Ben played very poorly.

Well that too...

Still think the lineup lacked smalls.

[gringo]

This thread is 4.5 years early

No it isn't.

It is basically in response to revisionism like we just go from RodgerMember that we weren't playing football to win a flag in 2009.

It is unmittigated garbage. 7.7 to 7.1 at halftime in the 09 GF with not one rushed and more than 3 gettable goals (not even mentioning Milnes grubber not making it from 30 metres out).

This revisionist hindsight claptrap has been all too prevelant since Lyon left and it is coupled with the OTT praise of Watters and his entertaining gameplan even though it has us at 6-6 with no statistical chance of even making it to the GF.

A bloke named Tom Harley who knows more than any us what it takes to win a flag commented on the critisism of Lyons gamestyle in 10 when he first became a commentator..."Attack for the membership...defence for the premiership". In essence attack will thrill the fickle ignorant supporters but defence will win you flags.

We didn't win in 09 not because of Lyons gameplan but the players butchering the ball in front of goal. But the meme on here has been set by straw man arguments that Lyon cost us a flag when it is illogical garbage.

I obviously don't read properly because I can't remember the constant blaming of Ross Lyon for our losses. Most were pissed he left. Now he's gone there are plenty that are seeing the positives but that's not so terrible is it. As for memes there are plenty of negatives that run like an Abbott campaign about how s*** half our players are.

I am a fence sitter myself Ross was a good coach but I find the new game style refreshing and think that the defensive game has been outplayed too often to keep as it was. You now need to attack quickly and efficiently to win games as well as defend. Collingwood look better for a more direct path to goal and are getting the defensive right along with it. I feel we are heading in a good direction and don't look back anymore.

[james rose]

But you dont get the point of the thread.

So many posters here want to demonise Ross Lyon because he was instrumental in us NOT winning a flag because of his gameplan.

They then go on to laud Watters entertaining gameplan.

Personally I prefer Watters gameplan over Lyon's BUT

I preferred the win loss ratio and the fact that we had two chances to win a flag because of it over struggling at 6-6 not making the four and having NO statistical chance of winning the flag.

I would like to know, why many are satisified with this current result - especially the crap on here after the Adelaide game.

To me it seems a more deep seated issue about St.Kilda supporter mentality. It seems that many weren't comfortable with Lyon getting us to the big dance on two consecutive occasions. They seem more comfortable to be a circus act entertaining team that is non threatening to the big boys.

You know mid table below, where we traditionally belong. Comfortable, non threatening, mediocre. Lyons teams may have been boring, stop start, stopage based, lock down drudge, but it was never mediocre in the years we challenged.

So here some news James Rose. I have stated on this thread on numerous posts, I prefer Watters style to Lyons style, but I prefer Lyons results.

Seems like you and many others just prefer 6-6 v 12-0 because it is safe and not a threat.

Fair enough. Your call

Big fan of what Ross Lyon did and no issues with him throwing everything at the chance to win a flag.

If your point was to address the demonizing of Ross Lyon then start a thread about that don't point to our results this year and compare them to the results of Ross after he had already had a year at the helm.

I personally believe Lyon's game plan was more effective but things have moved on, now the players need to, as they did in 2007, adjust to a new game style.

The two fairest comparisons would be

a) Lyon's first year as like Watters he completely changed the game plan and one would expect a period of adjustment.
OR
b) Lyon's last year as the cattle is most similar

By either measure I'm content with the signs so far but hardly doing cartwheels celebrating.

[prwilkinson]

The entertaining wins might be just around the corner.

[Johnny Member]

Should there be a thread titled Boring Losses Vs Exciting Losses?

It's far more relevant. We finished 6th last year with only 12 wins. Why or how that is being conveniently left out of this discussion (whatever this discussion is actually about?) is odd. Where we were at 3 years ago compared to now? What's the relevance in that?

A 2 goal GF loss, followed by a 10 goal GF loss, followed by a humiliating Elimination Final loss.

To be 6-6 and in the 8 right now seems to be bucking a blatantly obvious trend. I think that's very relevant.

[Scollop]

Do you want to see Polo, Peake, Ray, Blake, and Milne on the list in 2013 or do you want to see quality kids that might be the future leaders of St.Kilda FC?

Who are the "quality" kids to replace Ray, Blake and Milne? We have some potential, but the quality has been taken by GC, GWS and to a lesser extent Melbourne. The last "quality" we got was bj in about 2003.

So i take it you embrace the mediocre 6-6 and honourable losses. Good for you.

The Saints dickexcoach's philosophy on winning games of footy and the playing list needed to go all the way to the summit is a bit different to the list management philosophy of Malthouse and Bomber Thompson and Clarkson and most recently Chris Scott....perhaps your thinking is more aligned to dickexcoach or to Michael Voss's 2010 attempt at putting together a winning team. I was absolutely thrilled to hear Scotty say when he was appointed; "Winning games of footy should not be mutually exclusive to playing young blokes."

Malthouse could have played Lockyer, Josh Fraser, Medhurst, and even Presti for many more games and could have had dickexcoaches philosophy and even thought that they would be more influential in finals than any of the younger blokes they had on the list. But what did Malthouse do? He realised that there were kids they had there, and these kids had speed, talent and they just needed games to gain confidence and prove what they could offer.

I always have preferred that the Saints recruit talented kids rather than recycled blokes from other clubs. With the core of senior stars at the peak of their form in their careers, they could have carried half a dozen passengers and maybe sometimes they did. The opportunity to blood youngsters that could give you 100 or more games was lost with trying to recruit recycled players after 07, 08, '09 and again in 2010. Admittedly you need some strong bodies and you can get a few gems, as we did with Gardy, Schneids, King and Dempster, and as did Malthouse with Leroy Brown, but our dickexcoach just went way too far with that philosophy of topping up with recycled players. Let's not make the same mistakes by hanging on to older blokes or trying to recruit blokes who have hung up the boots...like dickexcoach mistakenly did with Gtrain.

Out of all the players I mentioned - Polo, Peake, Ray, Blake, and Milne - the only 1 I'd keep for 2013 is Ray. He has shown he can come into the team and perform and he has shown that he can maintain his form in the VFL and he ofcoarse will be invaluable with what he can offer as an on field mentor for the younger blokes playing VFL next to him. This is where I differ to your way of thinking and this is where I think we can't make the same mistakes of the past. I mean, Blakey has been great, but really, this IS HIS LAST YEAR. Perhaps you can't fathom to think that the team would be stronger without Milne, and Blake for the whole of 2013, but when young players are embraced and given strings of games they will be more important to the team and be more influential in games than these older blokes. I really believe that. Have a look at how Adelaides younger blokes are travelling or West Coast's youngsters or Collinwoods blokes.

Have a look at how Geary, Armo, Stanley, Simpkin and Saad and others have flourished under Scotty. He is showing good signs of nurturing and developing players and we look like we aren't carrying passengers with these younger blokes. I'm not a recruiter, so I can't tell who or what type of player we need, but i'm sure there's a few players under 25 playing in the SANFL or WAFL or VFL that are just itching for an opportunity. Let's face it, the aging, slow, and sometimes morale sapping efforts of senior players whose best is simply behind them cannot be compared to the speed and enthusiasm and work rate of younger blokes. Oh one other thing.....they CAN BE REPLACED...they are not Dal, BJ Chips or Roo are they?

[SaintPav]

I find Sp comments the funniest. Hopes the A league takes over from the AFL in 20 years times. Well 5 years in SP and the A league wont take over from the VFL the way it is going. And I thought you just told us you love the game. Obviously didnt 5 years a go. Maybe you should have followed the A league for the last 5 years and tell us how well it is run by their administrators.

Do you mean me or saintpremiers?

[skeptic]

the op does seem to point a bit more to the do you prefer to win or lose type of argument doesn't it

you can't realistically have a discussion like this 9-10 weeks into a coaches first season

[dragit]

Speaking of boring wins... Watching Sydney last night and last week, I must say that I don't miss those kinds of wins much. Sure they just beat 2 good sides, but I still don't think they'll threaten a flag this year, playing like that.

Break out to a 6 goal lead early in the match, then try and protect the lead for an hour & a half... Much riskier than just trying to kick more goals. Nothing like scoreboard pressure.

For the 5 grand finals we've seen with a real 'defensive' side playing (2 Sydney, 3 us), we've seen 1 win - which was one mark away from being another loss.

Even if we were 8-4 right now - with a negating game-style, I don't feel like we'd be any closer to a flag.

[SMS]

we have some defensive issues. The main problem is the new kids learning how to balance the attack and defense. Basically when to get back on opponents and when to leave them ands attack. Richmond game perfect example. But that has been the problem but that will be fixed with time. The main thing is our forward line is much better. Our run is better and potential is massive.

Scott Watters is awesome. Kids just need more time thats all. And how long is that? might be only 2 months more and then BAM we click in september and smash everyone like hawks 2008. Its a clicking thing. Certainly no problem with talent or coahing or vision. Just pray the kids get the message before september. Sydney game was a great example of it clicking. they got it right in the 2nd/3rd and we looked unstoppbale both defensly and attackingly.

[bergholt]

The main problem is the new kids learning how to balance the attack and defense.

nah, i reckon the main problem is the balance of the list. we have too many afl-standard mid-size defenders, and too few afl-standard true talls. so the side which ran out in the last two weeks - with basically no injuries - was generally a bit lacking in pace and attack, and also in stopping quality against tall marking forwards.

unfortunately that's not going to change any time soon. no matter what watters does with the gameplan, he has some vexing problems with the cattle at his disposal.

[saintspremiers]

we have some defensive issues. The main problem is the new kids learning how to balance the attack and defense. Basically when to get back on opponents and when to leave them ands attack. Richmond game perfect example. But that has been the problem but that will be fixed with time. The main thing is our forward line is much better. Our run is better and potential is massive.

Scott Watters is awesome. Kids just need more time thats all. And how long is that? might be only 2 months more and then BAM we click in september and smash everyone like hawks 2008. Its a clicking thing. Certainly no problem with talent or coahing or vision. Just pray the kids get the message before september. Sydney game was a great example of it clicking. they got it right in the 2nd/3rd and we looked unstoppbale both defensly and attackingly.

We have to click very quickly to finish top 4. Or are you deluding yourself by thinking s flag can be won finishing outside top 4?

[Dan Warna]

Sydney have won a bunch of games by a handful of points. We have lost a bunch of games by a handful of points <shrug>.

had we been 10.2 with all the close ones going our way watters would be a genius.

[Raph's Disciple]

This is a joke. 2009 wasn't boring footy at all. Did you even watch the team play? It was 2010 and 2011 when we were considered boring. Boring losses are pretty s***. I know we can't win the flag this year so entertaining losses aren't too bad

[saintspremiers]

This is a joke. 2009 wasn't boring footy at all. Did you even watch the team play? It was 2010 and 2011 when we were considered boring. Boring losses are pretty s***. I know we can't win the flag this year so entertaining losses aren't too bad

Spot on!

[plugger66]

This is a joke. 2009 wasn't boring footy at all. Did you even watch the team play? It was 2010 and 2011 when we were considered boring. Boring losses are pretty s***. I know we can't win the flag this year so entertaining losses aren't too bad

Spot on!

Surely boring wins are more fun even if you cant win a flag.

[perfectionist]

..Surely boring wins are more fun even if you cant win a flag.

Obviously, at least for any Saints fan who actually goes to the footy - respect the day!

[3rd generation saint]

Simply put, dont blame RL for the 09 and 10 GF losses.
I put it down to some wretched bad luck that always seems to prevent us winning number 2.
Yes we can go on about the missed goals etc, but say we kick one, back in the middle, Geelong clears and scores one back striaght away.
As I said before, and JB you sadly and painfully remember this, ball get's passed to Ablett, Dawson makes a tremendous effort to spoil a certain mark, only Scarlett between us and an open goal, however he toe pokes the ball off the ground straight back to Ablett and we know the rest.
Scarlett misses the ball, or miskicks it and we race it down the other end and kick the goal.
Of course 2010, bouncing ball, nightmares.
However, compared to how we played last year under RL, then I am enjoying this year much better and I judge RL's coaching in 2011, not 09 and 10.
He lost something, we'll he did lose his entire support staff from 09-10 and they may have had something to do with it.

[saintspremiers]

This is a joke. 2009 wasn't boring footy at all. Did you even watch the team play? It was 2010 and 2011 when we were considered boring. Boring losses are pretty s***. I know we can't win the flag this year so entertaining losses aren't too bad

Spot on!

Surely boring wins are more fun even if you cant win a flag.

I gained little pleasure from many of our boring wins last year. Sure you got 4 points, but it was like spending hours in car with a revolting Grandma!

[Scollop]

Have some respect for our senior citizens you arrogant sh1t

[plugger66]

Spot on!

Surely boring wins are more fun even if you cant win a flag.

I gained little pleasure from many of our boring wins last year. Sure you got 4 points, but it was like spending hours in car with a revolting Grandma!

I find losses however well we play like spending an hour in the car with you.