Boring Wins v Entertaining Losses

[joffaboy]

This is what I am reading - a loser mentality where as long as we are scoring a lot, you are happy.

Is this correct or am I reading all this defence of our poor position incorrectly and all this contentment is for some other indefinable reason?

Not correct at all..... I would be safe in saying that all players were not injured during 2007. I personally prefer how the side is playing in 2012, which is Watters first year, to 2007 which was Lyons first year.

We will all see how that turns out in the next 2 years.

So the question is, do you prefer 2007 to 2012 ?

Thats wasn't the question at all.

We had a horrific run with soft tissue injuries in 2007, a legacy of the Thomas coaching regime that cost us a shot in 2004 and 2005.

You mentioned the Hawthorn game in 2007. Only Raymond from the WHOLE LIST, was available and wasn't selected. The rest were injured.

In contrast, Watters took a fully fit list from Lyon, added pace in Saad, Milera, Newness, Stanley etc and has had very few injuries all season. Hs had an extremely soft draw and we stand at 6-6.

You obviously dont understand the OP. It was based on the absurd notion that Friday night was acceptable and an honourable loss, like Richmond was an honourable loss, and Port, or that the umpire conspired against the Saints and Watters is not at fault at all. Everyone just happy that we are kicking goals

So i take it from you attitude you didn't like the fact we contested in 2008, 2009, and 2010 in the top four and you got the chance to go to two GF's in a row - AS A DIRECT RESULT OF THE LYON GAMEPLAN BEING EXECUTED.

Since Lyon left is this revionistt BS about Lyon destroying our chance to win a flag which is patent BS.

Embracing mediocrity at 6-6 and critisisng Lyon is the mark of the loser mentality of the perennially defeated and beaten. If we could defend with half of the Lyon gameplan we would have beaten Port, Froa and Richmond and be 9-3 not 6-6.

Lyon is demonised while 6-6 is hailed as acceptable.

Go figure???

[Scollop]

The evolution of the playing list circa 2009 is so bl00dy different to where this group sits in 2012. You are not giving Watters a chance by comparing this year with 2009. So if you wanna say dumb post...how about dumbest OP ever!!!

Anyway, do you prefer Lyons role player list top up draft selections of 2008/9/10 or do you prefer the drafting policy of Pelchen/Watters for 2012 and beyond?

Instead of Lyon utilising the captain and the quality of our vice captains and deputies, in Chips, Lenny and Dal and BJ (and Banger up 'til 08) to blood younsters - he chose 'role players' instead.

Do you want to see Polo, Peake, Ray, Blake, and Milne on the list in 2013 or do you want to see quality kids that might be the future leaders of St.Kilda FC?

[joffaboy]

The evolution of the playing list circa 2009 is so bl00dy different to where this group sits in 2012. You are not giving Watters a chance by comparing this year with 2009. So if you wanna say dumb post...how about dumbest OP ever!!!

You made the statement about Lyon being my messiah. That was just plain dumb and ignorant, if you have read any of my posts over the years

Anyway, do you prefer Lyons role player list top up draft selections of 2008/9/10 or do you prefer the drafting policy of Pelchen/Watters for 2012 and beyond?

Cant tell about Pelchen and Watter beyond 2012, I am not a clairvoiant. Some potential but haw can you say?

Lyons list got us to two GF's in a row. Lyons list got us a 19-0 start in 2009.

Instead of Lyon utilising the captain and the quality of our vice captains and deputies, in Chips, Lenny and Dal and BJ (and Banger up 'til 08) to blood younsters - he chose 'role players' instead.

And got us to three top four finishes and two Grand Finals in a row. Yeah agreed really pissweak. Should have sacrificed trying to win a flag in those years to blood some players. FFS dumbest argument put forward ever.

This means you wanted us to blood kids at the expense of losing games and jeopardising the chance of a top four finish in those years??????????

OH

MY

GOD.

Do you want to see Polo, Peake, Ray, Blake, and Milne on the list in 2013 or do you want to see quality kids that might be the future leaders of St.Kilda FC?

Who are the "quality" kids to replace Ray, Blake and Milne? We have some potential, but the quality has been taken by GC, GWS and to a lesser extent Melbourne. The last "quality" we got was bj in about 2003.

So i take it you embrace the mediocre 6-6 and honourable losses. Good for you.

[SainterK]

Strange JB.

Not sure why you are so angry?

The coach isn't content with all the goals being leaked, he is as defensively minded as Ross.

The backline has had all of Fisher, Blake, Gwilt, Goddard, Dempster, Wilkes, Geary, Newnes, Simpkin, Gilbert, Raph going through there in recent weeks, it just needs to settle down.

Think your over-reacting making calls about styles at this point.

He tinkered with the forward line and up until Saad being injured, you'd have to say he managed to get that working nicely.

Let him tinker with the backline now that Fisher and Gwilt are back in the picture, and he can build something stable.

Ross left, no point talking about what the results would be if he was still here and they were playing his gameplan, that is just fairytale stuff.

[joffaboy]

Strange JB.

Not sure why you are so angry?

The coach isn't content with all the goals being leaked, he is as defensively minded as Ross.

Not saying Watters is, it is the supporters posting their contentment on here that the OP is directed at.

Unfortunately Watters is patently NOT as defensively minded as Lyon. Is that a bad thing? Probably not. But if we dont make the finals because he cant get our defence right or it is sacrificed to Matthew Knights like all out attacked I will not be too happy.

The backline has had all of Fisher, Blake, Gwilt, Goddard, Dempster, Wilkes, Geary, Newnes, Simpkin, Gilbert, Raph going through there in recent weeks, it just needs to settle down.

So what? Plenty of changes when Lyon coached. Its not just the backline but the whole defensive structure.

Think your over-reacting making calls about styles at this point.

Not about styles, but attitudes of supporters. I like Watters style, but dont like the 6-6.

He tinkered with the forward line and up until Saad being injured, you'd have to say he managed to get that working nicely.

yes I like the spread of goal kickers, Saad nd Milera and Stanley coming in adding pace. All very exciting.

Let him tinker with the backline now that Fisher and Gwilt are back in the picture, and he can build something stable.

Lets hope so.

Ross left, no point talking about what the results would be if he was still here and they were playing his gameplan, that is just fairytale stuff.

You mean like Cousins would have won us a flag, or Ball playing more in the 09 would have won us a flag, or blooding players at the expense of winning games would have won us a flag, or that Lyon never blooded a new player etc etc etc.

A more defensive style would have won the games against Port, Richmond and Freo. In fact freo beat us with the Lyon gameplan, easily outcoach Watters.

[SainterK]

At least Watters can coach a win v Sydney, something Ross couldn't do in his last year at the club, twice.

[SainterK]

This probably adds to the discussion

First 5 games under Watters opposition scored

89
47
40
92
66

Defensively not too bad, box of chocolates to the person who can tell me what happened Rd 6

Here's a clue, he won two best and fairests under Ross 'defensive' Lyon.

Anyone, anyone?

[joffaboy]

At least Watters can coach a win v Sydney, something Ross couldn't do in his last year at the club, twice.

I thought it was our best game of the season.

I was glad to see Lyon go after 2011. he had shot his bolt, but the revisionism on this site about him is incredible, to the point that people will praise the s.hite dished up on Friday because it was "honourable".

Thank god our current coach disn't think so.

Hopefully he has got some more tweaking to do because i would love to see this St.Kilda win more games playing fast attacking footy. But we should be 9-3 not 6-6.

I am on Watters side and think he will be a good coach. Not many coaches do a Scott at Geelong and win first up.

[whiskers3614]

Put 2009 Gardiner &King in this side and we would be no worse than 10/2

[Zed]

What do you prefer?

I enjoy our attacking style, but really loved when we actually competed for flags not ran about like the Washington generals putting on a "jolly good" and "honourable" display.

However it seems many here are satisified if we kick 16 a game regardless if the opposition has kicked 18.

Are we rebuilding to a new game plan that will take fruition in the second part of the season or next season, or is it that many Saints supporters are comfortable when we are not really competing for the flag?

2009 - 12-0 playing "boring" football (at the time we were all raqving about it) v

2012 6-6 playing "entertaining " football (who many are raving about)

Over to you.

Not a fair comparison JB.

You should be comparing 2012 to RL first year 2007 - when he took a team that had played finals footy and coached them into the bottom half of the table in his first year.

Your comparison is like comparing GT of 2004/5 to RL of 2007.

I like the 2012 style, and I think we are more advanced than in RLs first year - but at the end of the day the same reasons why we didnt win the flag in 2009 ie failure to convert easy shots on goal - also cost us the game on Friday night - and ultimately we can't win a flag regardless of game style until some of the serial offenders have retired or moved on.

[joffaboy]

What do you prefer?

I enjoy our attacking style, but really loved when we actually competed for flags not ran about like the Washington generals putting on a "jolly good" and "honourable" display.

However it seems many here are satisified if we kick 16 a game regardless if the opposition has kicked 18.

Are we rebuilding to a new game plan that will take fruition in the second part of the season or next season, or is it that many Saints supporters are comfortable when we are not really competing for the flag?

2009 - 12-0 playing "boring" football (at the time we were all raqving about it) v

2012 6-6 playing "entertaining " football (who many are raving about)

Over to you.

Not a fair comparison JB.

You should be comparing 2012 to RL first year 2007 - when he took a team that had played finals footy and coached them into the bottom half of the table in his first year.

Your comparison is like comparing GT of 2004/5 to RL of 2007.

I like the 2012 style, and I think we are more advanced than in RLs first year - but at the end of the day the same reasons why we didnt win the flag in 2009 ie failure to convert easy shots on goal - also cost us the game on Friday night - and ultimately we can't win a flag regardless of game style until some of the serial offenders have retired or moved on.

Might actually like to read the thread before posting.

2007 Lyon took from Thomas a list that was into its fourth year of debilitating soft tissue injuries.

lyon had a list that took a year to recover from the neglect of Thomas and 2007 was ruined as a result.

Watters has hardly had an injury.

it is a perfect comarision when you take into account the fact that all we have heard is revisionist garbage about Lyons in 2009/10 that he was "boring" he cost us a flag, that he destroyed the list.

many of these fickle fans now laud the new gamestyle but we are tottering at 6-6.

My premis is simple - do you prefer to win or prefer this entertaining style? Many prefer the mediocrity of 6-6 over the boringness of 12-0.

Go figure

[SainterK]

You'd want to explain that to the Freo fans who are clinging to the fact that 2007 was a write off because the players had to 'learn Lyons gameplan'

[Scollop]

Who are the "quality" kids to replace Ray, Blake and Milne? We have some potential, but the quality has been taken by GC, GWS and to a lesser extent Melbourne. The last "quality" we got was bj in about 2003.

So i take it you embrace the mediocre 6-6 and honourable losses. Good for you.

I have read plenty of your posts. You don't analyse and think too well do you? Quality players in footy clubs can surprise and some quality people and quality characters turn into captains of premiership teams.

Not all captains are top ten draft picks. Get used to it, there's going to be more 'quality' kids being recruited and you never know, we might get a Kirk or a Harley or Maxwell or Selwood of the future.

[Buckets]

JB just a couple of things:

Watters has had injury concerns already this year with KPP of McEvoy, Fisher and to a lesser extent Stanley going down. Schneider has only played 2 games due to injury, Roo now has an injury, calf, and I'm hoping he will be right after the bye.
He has also lost a KPP in Zac, although I never rated him highly still hurt structure.
The players that Lyon played on a regular basis, Polo, Peake, Ray's are now having to fight for selection against the likes of Simpkin, Steven, Armo, Stanley, Saad, Milera, I would say that's a positive but also has an impact on the team, getting used to new players.
The team itself is trying to get a hold of the game style that Watters wants. Yes there have been disappointing efforts, but there is enough there to suggest that for all the doom and gloom that there was after Lyon left - End of an Era, list in decline, need pace etc - may have been just a tad premature.

As I said to a couple of people after the game on Friday night, although disappointing the effort to even try and come back was something that for me I hadn't seen from this team in a very long time. That don't say die attitude that at least got them close to West Coast over there and nearly pinching it against Adelaide.
I look back over the last few years and the most frustrating thing when we got behind was that lack of willingness to even try get back in the game or die trying.

I would say that 2007 is the best year to compare to this year.
To rd 12
2007 - 5 wins, biggest winning margin = 50 points against the Doggies , Biggest losing margin = 60 points against Geelong, 0 games lost by 13 points or less
2008 - 5 wins, biggest wining margin = 79 points against Melbourne, Biggest losing margin = 46 against Brisbane, 1 lost by 13 points or less
2012 - 6 wins, biggest winning margin = 95 against the Suns, Biggest losing margin = 35 against Hawks, 4 games lost by 13 points or less

I thought I would put in 2008 as well as I thought that for the purpose it would give another year to compare to. If you want to compare all of Lyon's years to the first 12 rounds of Watters career I can do that as well, but I would think that for all intents and purposes that 2009 would be unfair to compare considering that by this time Lyon had 2 full seasons to implement his gameplan and the players he wanted to play.

Oh and last quality, I would have thought that Armo, Steven, Gwilt, Simpkin Stanley, Saad, Cripps, Milera, Newnes who have all shown improvement this year and potential and may argue that there hasnt been anything of real value since we were gifted Bj. And on Bj I get a really strange feeling that he is struggling this year, whether that is with form or contract negotiations I have no idea, but he is not playing up to his level consistantly this year.

[Dan Warna]

Quite simple really. I would take:

An entertaining win over a boring win.

An entertaining loss over a boring loss.

A boring win over an entertaining loss.

and point 3 is where i think some of the criticism of our current form comes from.

I think 4 close losses hurt a lot. We COULD HAVE SHOULD HAVE etc.

Turning in at 10-2 would see in contention instead of 6-6. Our losses, with the exception of Hawks I think, have been close, hence our % of 121%.

One of my criticisms is that many high pressure shots at goal by high paid guns are going astray. At least a couple of games we've had more scoring shots than the opposition and still lost.

That hurts, see 2009 GF if you don't see the importance, we won everywhere except in front of goal. Even 1997, I think we only had 2 or 3 less shots than adelaide, but lost by 6 goals or so.

The talent is definitely at st kilda to be a contender, but unless Watters can iron out the glitches, we are a good ordinary side as opposed to a contender.

by 2015 we'll be looking at a different list altogether from the one now.

[joffaboy]

Who are the "quality" kids to replace Ray, Blake and Milne? We have some potential, but the quality has been taken by GC, GWS and to a lesser extent Melbourne. The last "quality" we got was bj in about 2003.

So i take it you embrace the mediocre 6-6 and honourable losses. Good for you.

I have read plenty of your posts. You don't analyse and think too well do you? Quality players in footy clubs can surprise and some quality people and quality characters turn into captains of premiership teams.

Not all captains are top ten draft picks. Get used to it, there's going to be more 'quality' kids being recruited and you never know, we might get a Kirk or a Harley or Maxwell or Selwood of the future.

So in essence you cant answer the question I asked, only talk about captains for some unknown reason

Tell me where the "quality" players are coming from to replace your "retirements".

Draft? Will take three to four years for even a top # pick to come to fruition.

Recruiting? Well we may pick up GOP's like Saad Milera or Dempster and Schneider, but when was the last time we picked up a "quality" player in trade? Gehrig and Hamill was 11 years ago.

Free Agency? We can barely hold the "quality" in bj we have because of SC restrictions.

So tell me where are these replacement "quality" players magically going to appear from that will replace the players you want out and makes us contenders in the next 1-3 years?

So please answer the question instead of going off on tangents about captains.

Over to you.

[Teflon]

I was a huge Lyon fan, and still am. Unlike many I will always be grateful for what he brought to our club - which was steely professionalism

Steely professionalism was already at the club.

Wrong

Steely Dan was at the club courtesy of bumbling Grant...
Lyon bought consistency to our club we have not had for a long time and will struggle with for a while yet

[dragit]

How did we look at this stage last year?

Something like 3 - 1 - 7 ?

[joffaboy]

How did we look at this stage last year?

Something like 3 - 1 - 7 ?

And the relevance of this is what?

[dragit]

How did we look at this stage last year?

Something like 3 - 1 - 7 ?

And the relevance of this is what?

A lot more relevant than cherry picking 2009 for comparison.

[joffaboy]

How did we look at this stage last year?

Something like 3 - 1 - 7 ?

And the relevance of this is what?

A lot more relevant than cherry picking 2009 for comparison.

Why?

The revisionism on this forum is that Lyon cost us flags because he was boring in his gameplan i.e. a lockdown approach that had us being very formula and deliberate while stranglign the life out of the opposition.

Now the two season we had a chance to win a flag was in 09 and 10. In 09 we won 19 straight. At the same time of that season we were 12-0 playing a supposed "boring" style.

Now we have many on here lauding the manic all out attack of the 2012 St.Kilda team and directly comparing it to the Ross Lyon teams (especially the 2009 and 10 teams where Lyon supposedly "lost" us two flag according to the prevailing authodoxy of this forum).

So it is a direct comparision. prefering "boring" 12-0 with a probability of making top four and a shot at the flag (which happened), or 6-6 "entertaining" with next to no hope of making the top four (where you have to be to win the flag).

Seems like many prefer 6-6 and no hope of winning a flag to 12-0 and a chance to win a flag, as long as the games are entertaining.

Funny I always thought the object of the competition was to try to win the flag. Seems like many in here are uncomfortable with that.

Go Figure

[paddy]

Not happy with 6-6...

but happy that i get to enjoy watching, even the games we loose.

prefer 6-6 of enjoyable footy than 6-6 of boring footy, or 0 - 12

[clarky449]

If anyone says they prefer Entertaining losses more then Boring wins are imbeciles. Hello, i am back for 1 post. So much Ross hate. 2009 we were exciting and we were exciting for a bit of 2010. This year has been crap compared to 2009.

[SaintPav]

This weekend will be very boring footy wise but at least we won't lose so we have to be happy about that..

[james rose]

An interesting thread a few years ago by the OP of this one.

I'm seeing a trend.

A little resistant to change there Joffa?

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