Boring Wins v Entertaining Losses

[Teflon]

I hated losing FRiday night. I was nearly thrown out with the dog due to my appalling language and thumping of furniture whilst watching the game. Who could bare to watch that many easy shots go astray?

Lol.........I can share that pain......out with the dog all day today....

[plugger66]

I will take boring wins every game. Just dont understand how an exciting loss can ever be exciting. Got no pleasure at all out of the Tigers and Crows game but got plenty of pleasure out the Sydney game in round one in 2009. the problem can be boring losses playing that way but really a loss is a loss. We have now lost 6 this year and will struggle to make the top 8. We look good but leak goals. luckily we only lost a hack backmen in Zac and that hasnt hurt. A few have said we wont win a flag with Zac in the side well I reckon we are going to find it bloody hard with him out of the side.

[Old Mate]

I doubt Zac in the team would change much. The whole team is pressing a lot further up the ground and on the rebound we're getting smashed cos the opposition constantly have one on ones in their attacking zone. Under Lyon's game plan, Zac more often than not had support from our loose man. Our back line under ross were always quick to sag off their opponents to assist if Zac or others were caught out one on one as well. Lets be honest, the defensive aspect of Lyon's game plan is the best in the league. Anyway, Zac is average, not a hack but certainty nothing spectacular so don't know why some talk him up. He'd be going about as good as Blake and Gwilt in his back line role under Watters game plan IMO.

[joffaboy]

Just to clarify I put "boring" and "entertaining" in quotes because that is the perception one gets from this forum.

Ross Lyon , the traitor, played boring football gameplans.

Scot Watter, the hero, plays entertaining, exciting, high scoring, gameplans.

Considering we made top four three years straight 2 consecutive GF's and four top eights in a row under "boring" Lyon, and look like missing top eight under "entertaining" Watters, I started the thread because of the perception from Friday night how content many were with another honourable loss because, well, we scored alot.

[plugger66]

I doubt Zac in the team would change much. The whole team is pressing a lot further up the ground and on the rebound we're getting smashed cos the opposition constantly have one on ones in their attacking zone. Under Lyon's game plan, Zac more often than not had support from our loose man. Our back line under ross were always quick to sag off their opponents to assist if Zac or others were caught out one on one as well. Lets be honest, the defensive aspect of Lyon's game plan is the best in the league. Anyway, Zac is average, not a hack but certainty nothing spectacular so don't know why some talk him up. He'd be going about as good as Blake and Gwilt in his back line role under Watters game plan IMO.

there is no doubt we play completely different under SW but we also dont have a tall back. Whether Zac could do a job on forwards is a bit of a guess but he has performed better than our other options we have at the moment. Our last 4 losses have been due to one player. A tall leading and marking forward. we dont have a natural FB to stop that type of player.

[The Craw]

Just to clarify I put "boring" and "entertaining" in quotes because that is the perception one gets from this forum.

Ross Lyon , the traitor, played boring football gameplans.

Scot Watter, the hero, plays entertaining, exciting, high scoring, gameplans.

Considering we made top four three years straight 2 consecutive GF's and four top eights in a row under "boring" Lyon, and look like missing top eight under "entertaining" Watters, I started the thread because of the perception from Friday night how content many were with another honourable loss because, well, we scored alot.

How did Lyon go in his first year of coaching in 2007 ?

Watters is 12 games into his stint with St Kilda and I much prefer what he is dishing up to what Lyon did in his first year ..... the Hawthorn game for starters ...... seriously if you want to make a comparison compare 2007 to 2012.

[plugger66]

Just to clarify I put "boring" and "entertaining" in quotes because that is the perception one gets from this forum.

Ross Lyon , the traitor, played boring football gameplans.

Scot Watter, the hero, plays entertaining, exciting, high scoring, gameplans.

Considering we made top four three years straight 2 consecutive GF's and four top eights in a row under "boring" Lyon, and look like missing top eight under "entertaining" Watters, I started the thread because of the perception from Friday night how content many were with another honourable loss because, well, we scored alot.

How did Lyon go in his first year of coaching in 2007 ?

Watters is 12 games into his stint with St Kilda and I much prefer what he is dishing up to what Lyon did in his first year ..... the Hawthorn game for starters ...... seriously if you want to make a comparison compare 2007 to 2012.

What was the Hawthorn game?

[The Craw]

What was the Hawthorn game?

Round 8 2007 at the MCG ..... 3/4 time ... 4 goals Hawks 3 goals Saints or something like that. Absolute Sh!te was served up but that was 2007. Missed the finals also. Players were trying to adust to the gameplan. It took them the whole year. Can't see why Watters cannot be afforded the same whilst he tries to get his gameplan in place.

Watching St Kilda that year was about as pleasurable as sliding my aggots up and down a cheese grater. At least this year I have the luxury of getting rid of the grater.

[plugger66]

What was the Hawthorn game?

Round 8 2007 at the MCG ..... 3/4 time ... 4 goals Hawks 3 goals Saints or something like that. Absolute Sh!te was served up but that was 2007. Missed the finals also. Players were trying to adust to the gameplan. It took them the whole year. Can't see why Watters cannot be afforded the same whilst he tries to get his gameplan in place.

Watching St Kilda that year was about as pleasurable as sliding my aggots up and down a cheese grater. At least this year I have the luxury of getting rid of the grater.

Yep remember now. In his defence on that game we ran out of players due to injury and even Howard and Sweeney played that game. i still say had we won that game it would have been better than the Adelaide or Richmond game. Also i am unsure many are having a go at Watters. I think the point is the person who started the thread feels the same as i do. Any win is better than any loss no matter how the footy is played.

[avid]

This is the most intelligently argued and stimulating thread we've had for ages! I'm pondering all the same questions myself -- just written a long email on it to an overseas Sainter this morning.
I'm loving the new game plan and new-look player list. The lapses and losses this year have been infuriating, but I'm enjoying the warm feeling -- the burning, raging feeling -- of HOPE that's emerging from our recent games!
The "new sensations" -- Saad, Milera, Stanley, Simpkin, Siposs (and Cripps and Newnes almost) -- plus the "stepped up" group of Armo and Steven, plus Geary, and hopefully McEvoy -- have opened a whole new WINDOW for us!
Can they consolidate -- this year or next -- before the "old faithfuls" fall away? I think we've got a two year 'mini-window' of top-four footy. (Which means even a slim but posible chance at another GF. It's never going to be better than a lottery at the very top I'm afraid.)
Loved the Lyon-cage at it's peak. But it was gruelling work holding onto it as it was gradually unpicked over the last few years. That was (increasingly frustrating) SURVIVAL under Lyon. Under Watters we now have genuine REVIVAL.
I'm excited.


(I'm refusing to think more than two years ahead though.)

[The Craw]

Yep remember now. In his defence on that game we ran out of players due to injury and even Howard and Sweeney played that game. i still say had we won that game it would have been better than the Adelaide or Richmond game. Also i am unsure many are having a go at Watters. I think the point is the person who started the thread feels the same as i do. Any win is better than any loss no matter how the footy is played.

That is exactly the point ... an honorable loss which was excruciating to watch compared to what we have at the moment.

Comparison to 2009, which anyone would agree was fantastic, is unfair in my opinion.

[SainterK]

and look like missing top eight under "entertaining" Watters

Really?

That's an early call.

[cowboy18]

Just to clarify I put "boring" and "entertaining" in quotes because that is the perception one gets from this forum.

Ross Lyon , the traitor, played boring football gameplans.

Scot Watter, the hero, plays entertaining, exciting, high scoring, gameplans.

Considering we made top four three years straight 2 consecutive GF's and four top eights in a row under "boring" Lyon, and look like missing top eight under "entertaining" Watters, I started the thread because of the perception from Friday night how content many were with another honourable loss because, well, we scored alot.

Boring gameplan = 0 flags
Exciting gameplan = 0 flags

nil-all draw with respect to the stat that matters.

[skeptic]

do u think our unsettled backline may have contributed to the fact that opposition are scoring more heavily against us in "entertaining" football?

[Saints43]

I was a huge Lyon fan, and still am. Unlike many I will always be grateful for what he brought to our club - which was steely professionalism

Steely professionalism was already at the club.

[Buckets]

Just to clarify I put "boring" and "entertaining" in quotes because that is the perception one gets from this forum.

Ross Lyon , the traitor, played boring football gameplans.

Scot Watter, the hero, plays entertaining, exciting, high scoring, gameplans.

Considering we made top four three years straight 2 consecutive GF's and four top eights in a row under "boring" Lyon, and look like missing top eight under "entertaining" Watters, I started the thread because of the perception from Friday night how content many were with another honourable loss because, well, we scored alot.

How did Lyon go in his first year of coaching in 2007 ?

Watters is 12 games into his stint with St Kilda and I much prefer what he is dishing up to what Lyon did in his first year ..... the Hawthorn game for starters ...... seriously if you want to make a comparison compare 2007 to 2012.

And when comparing those two years 2012 is already better.

[Scollop]

Why are we comparing 2009 with 2012? Why not compare 1966 with 2012? 1966 was definitely better too.

Football is totally different to last year, let alone 3 years ago.

You compare Lyon's best year with Watters' only year, why not compare 2006 (Lyon's first) with 2012 (Watters' first) or even 2011 with 2012?

So far, I will take this year's performances ahead of 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2011, but not over 2004, 2005, 2009 or 2010.

How about that?

Well said GY27.

[Richter]

I'm not sure that I really buy in to the premise. Only the Saints and Swans have been relatively successful playing the lock down style over the last few years, most of the other teams that did well were primarily attacking, entertaining teams.... Geelong, West Coast, Collingwood, Hawthorn, Bulldogs...

For me, a better comparison is to look at the 2010 Grand Final teams (both sides) and compare with our current team. Basically, under Lyon in order to play the style he demanded our "bottom" players were role players... shut-down players... whilst Collingwood did not do this... they played younger... 'next best' players... they refused to tag and trusted the likes of Beams and Sidebottom to become better players... which, over time, they have...

2010 Saints GF bottom players... Eddy, Ray, Peake, Dempster, McQualter, Gwilt, Baker, Jones
2010 Pies GF bottom players... Wellingham, Beams, Sidebottom, Blair, MacAffer, Goldsack, Brown

The difference is stark isn't it? It meant that the pies were able to groom their next generation of up and coming midfielders, playing attacking footy, and they won a flag to boot. Whilst we made do with mostly mid-aged and older 'lock-down' or primarily defence minded players...

2012 Saints bottom players - Milera, Saad, Sippos, Newnes, Cripps, Stanley, Geary

The difference compared with Lyon is amazing... the majority of today's bottom players are young, attacking minded... The likes of Polo, who has played good one on one contested footy this year have been dropped because he did not offer enough going forward. Even Farren Ray, who played very well on his comeback game, has not done enough to keep his spot...

Bottom line is that in this business you have to continually look to make improvements in the team in order to get better... IMO playing young attacking players over middle or older aged lock down players is clearly the better way to go... how did playing the likes of Eddy and McQualter in 2009-10 improve St Kilda in the long run? Answer.. it didn't... their presence merely blocked the path for other young players coming through to gain invaluable experience.

[Scollop]

Stop worshipping your messiah jb.

Our high draft picks and A graders that Lyon had at his disposal was the key to the successful years. Our champion players made a pact to remain together, so never forget that it is mainly their efforts and their work ethic and their loyalty that got us there in '09/'10. Unfortunately even champions have an expiry date.

You need to do more than have a good game plan to go down in AFL history, you need to be a brilliant judge of character. Super coaches are those that;
1. Have coached a premiership and delivered silverware in the trophy cabinet.
2. Have brought quality individuals into our footy club that will be the future leaders of St Kilda.

Lyon has done none of the above.

Dan Warner called our core group of stars, that were at their peak of their careers, a 'once in a generation'. Watters and Pelchen are working on rectifying the lost opportunities under Lyon. Opportunities to bring in youngsters that can learn by playing next to and training with the likes of our 'once in a generation' champions.

[The Fireman]

I just love the theatre.

[dragit]

I'll take whichever brings us a flag, if not then I would at least like to be entertained.

As pointed out by most 2009 vs 2012 is an absurd premise anyway.

[joffaboy]

Just to clarify I put "boring" and "entertaining" in quotes because that is the perception one gets from this forum.

Ross Lyon , the traitor, played boring football gameplans.

Scot Watter, the hero, plays entertaining, exciting, high scoring, gameplans.

Considering we made top four three years straight 2 consecutive GF's and four top eights in a row under "boring" Lyon, and look like missing top eight under "entertaining" Watters, I started the thread because of the perception from Friday night how content many were with another honourable loss because, well, we scored alot.

How did Lyon go in his first year of coaching in 2007 ?

Watters is 12 games into his stint with St Kilda and I much prefer what he is dishing up to what Lyon did in his first year ..... the Hawthorn game for starters ...... seriously if you want to make a comparison compare 2007 to 2012.

And when comparing those two years 2012 is already better.

Why compare 2007 when the team was decimated by injury?

Laughable to talk about the Hawthorn in 2007. Only player on the WHOLE LIST that was available and didn't play was Raymond And if you want to compare 28 point loss to Hawks in 2007 with no players v 30 point loss in 2012 with full team in.

We have hardly had an injury and arguably our best team on the park on Saturday and the score flattered us. We are not a top four team and we are leaking goals like crazy.

But I can see from the responses the true St.Kilda support mentality of being comfortable and not being a threat is coming through.

Everyone content with 6-6 and struggling to make finals where with lyon it didn't sit well that we actually contended for a flag.

This is what I am reading - a loser mentality where as long as we are scoring a lot, you are happy.

Is this correct or am I reading all this defence of our poor position incorrectly and all this contentment is for some other indefinable reason?

[The Craw]

This is what I am reading - a loser mentality where as long as we are scoring a lot, you are happy.

Is this correct or am I reading all this defence of our poor position incorrectly and all this contentment is for some other indefinable reason?

Not correct at all..... I would be safe in saying that all players were not injured during 2007. I personally prefer how the side is playing in 2012, which is Watters first year, to 2007 which was Lyons first year.

We will all see how that turns out in the next 2 years.

So the question is, do you prefer 2007 to 2012 ?

[joffaboy]

Stop worshipping your messiah jb.

Dumbest post on the thread.

I dont worship any coach. Couldn't stand Thomas, didn't like Lyon, dont mind Watters, but all of this is moot. Couldn't care less if they were good blokes or not, as long as they deliver a flag.

Thomas couldn't

Lyon couldn't

Watters? has a chance.

But halfway through the year and we are 6-6 clinging to a top 8 spot.

All this praise and posters content with Fridays loss because we are attacking and not "boring" prompted this thread.

If you managed to read the OP you would have seen that i like this style...BUT it seems it doesn't win enough games.

Spud teams like Freo, Port and Richmond would have been beaten by a Lyon coached team and we would have accounted for the other wins we have. We would not have beaten the Hawks, WCE or Adelaide playing with a Lyon gameplan.

We have had an easy draw and should be 9-3 not 6-6, but defence has been sacrificed for shootout type games.

Seems like many are happy for this to happen and wallow in mediocrity which 6-6 certainly is.

Me - well I didn't like Lyons gameplan but loved the fact that we contested for two flags - one where the players let us down with abysmal kicking for goal, another we almost stole.

I like Watters gameplan but dont like the fact that we are mediocre. Seems many are comfortable with being so though

Go figure

[Dr Spaceman]

Quite simple really. I would take:

An entertaining win over a boring win.

An entertaining loss over a boring loss.

A boring win over an entertaining loss.