Boring Wins v Entertaining Losses

[joffaboy]

What do you prefer?

I enjoy our attacking style, but really loved when we actually competed for flags not ran about like the Washington generals putting on a "jolly good" and "honourable" display.

However it seems many here are satisified if we kick 16 a game regardless if the opposition has kicked 18.

Are we rebuilding to a new game plan that will take fruition in the second part of the season or next season, or is it that many Saints supporters are comfortable when we are not really competing for the flag?

2009 - 12-0 playing "boring" football (at the time we were all raqving about it) v

2012 6-6 playing "entertaining " football (who many are raving about)

Over to you.

[saintspremiers]

2009 wasnt boring. We scored heavily in that year. Went pear shaped in 2010/11.

Im happy with 2012 "Robbie Williams Footy" ("Let me Entertain you!") style.

If we had the 2009 cattle with 2012 style it would be awesome!!!

[joffaboy]

2009 wasnt boring. We scored heavily in that year. Went pear shaped in 2010/11.

Im happy with 2012 "Robbie Williams Footy" ("Let me Entertain you!") style.

If we had the 2009 cattle with 2012 style it would be awesome!!!

So you are happy with 6-6 compared to 12-0.

The 2009 team couldn't play like then 2012 team (not quick enough)

[Dan Warna]

I agree JB.

the lyon hate here is strong, but we competed for premierships. At the midway point this year we are competing for a finals spot.

That said, Lyons first year we didn't make the finals and I along with others hated lyon at that stage.

We saw a transition out of the team during the end of Thomas start of lyon's era of Loewe, burke, FG, Thomo, Frankie, hammil and many expected a down slide in the team.

I love the fact we are raining goals on the opposition, but yes you are correct, our defence leaks.

[joffaboy]

I agree JB.

the lyon hate here is strong, but we competed for premierships. At the midway point we are competing for a finals spot.

That said, Lyons first year we didn't make the finals and I along with others hated lyon at that stage.

We saw a transition out of the team during the end of Thomas start of lyon's era of Loewe, burke, FG, Thomo, Frankie, hammil and many expected a down slide in the team.

I love the fact we are raining goals on the opposition, but yes you are correct, our defence leaks.

So Dan you seem to think it may take a year or so for Watters to get the right cattle on board before we compete again?

Possibly. Hope so

[Buckets]

2009 wasnt boring. We scored heavily in that year. Went pear shaped in 2010/11.

Im happy with 2012 "Robbie Williams Footy" ("Let me Entertain you!") style.

If we had the 2009 cattle with 2012 style it would be awesome!!!

So you are happy with 6-6 compared to 12-0.

The 2009 team couldn't play like then 2012 team (not quick enough)

We are in transition, the biggest calls over the last 2 years have been add pace score more. When you do that you ultimately leave yourself open to be hurt the other way. The team has not yet found the equilibrium however IMO don't think it is that far away. There were massive patches of last night's game where we controlled them and held them in our F50 for large stints. We stop missing the easy shots and giving up really soft avoidable frees and 50's and you will see a better balance and fearsome team!

[SainterK]

That football is null and void though.

Even Freo doesn't play pure defensive football anymore, and have quick fast breaks and a high play on percentage, similar to what Ross employed last year at St Kilda.

It's ironic, but Ross has created the current football environment as teams evolved to beat it.

So really option A isn't even an option anymore?

It's more a comparison between this year and last

6-6 v 4-1-7

[Buckets]

I agree JB.

the lyon hate here is strong, but we competed for premierships. At the midway point this year we are competing for a finals spot.

That said, Lyons first year we didn't make the finals and I along with others hated lyon at that stage.

We saw a transition out of the team during the end of Thomas start of lyon's era of Loewe, burke, FG, Thomo, Frankie, hammil and many expected a down slide in the team.

I love the fact we are raining goals on the opposition, but yes you are correct, our defence leaks.

Dan how many players of the 22 that played last night do you believe will be retired by the end of 2014?

[Dan Warna]

I don't know JB.

I like the fact some of the young kids are coming on fast, but I don't think its enough at this stage.

We lost 4 very close games, port, Tigers, freo and last night. We COULD have been turning in at 10 and 2 not 6 and 6.

Don't think watters has done a bad job as a coach.

There are things for us to work on and improve.

Also I noted our defence reminded me of the sheldon era, where the defenders were miles off their players. This could be caused by the sheer pace of the game these days.

I'm too jaded to dream of premierships.

[Solar]

Of course it will take at least a year, watters is rebuilding a game style. Name me one first year coach who has adjusted a teams game plan who has gone top four. The closest is sanderson and he has been lucky tha the penny has dropped for a few like walker. Need another KPP backman. One thinking lcking was our development of the next set of defenders. See conca and rance at richmond for examples.

Don't remember having so many close losses in lyons first season. I will give watters time to iron this out. But I must admit I still fill like we are in the game even when the opposition in 5 goals in front. Under lyon that was game over.

[GeorgeYoung27]

Why are we comparing 2009 with 2012? Why not compare 1966 with 2012? 1966 was definitely better too.

Football is totally different to last year, let alone 3 years ago.

You compare Lyon's best year with Watters' only year, why not compare 2006 (Lyon's first) with 2012 (Watters' first) or even 2011 with 2012?

So far, I will take this year's performances ahead of 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2011, but not over 2004, 2005, 2009 or 2010.

How about that?

[The Redeemer]

I agree JB.

the lyon hate here is strong, but we competed for premierships. At the midway point we are competing for a finals spot.

That said, Lyons first year we didn't make the finals and I along with others hated lyon at that stage.

We saw a transition out of the team during the end of Thomas start of lyon's era of Loewe, burke, FG, Thomo, Frankie, hammil and many expected a down slide in the team.

I love the fact we are raining goals on the opposition, but yes you are correct, our defence leaks.

So Dan you seem to think it may take a year or so for Watters to get the right cattle on board before we compete again?

Possibly. Hope so

Do we have the benefit of another core group coming into maturity though? Probably not...

To me it is just crap timing considering the top end talent are closer to the end than the beginning of their careers.

I dislike how we can score a million points and the opposition scores a million plus one.

Also our defenders bar Fisher are being shown up for their actual talents.

[Dan Warna]

Dan how many players of the 22 that played last night do you believe will be retired by the end of 2014?

Lets have a look at ages at the end of 2014:
Blake 35
Clarke 29
Dal Santo 30
Dempster 30
Fisher 32
Gilbert 29
Goddard 30
Gram 30
Hayes 34
C. Jones 30
Kosi 32
Milne 35
schneider 32
Monty 31
Peakes 31
Roo 32
--------------
Not saying any will be gone or not, but injury, form, free trade etc would suggest that at least 1/2 of the above players will be gone by or at the end of 2014.

Some of the above players represent once in a generation talent.

[saint66au]

I think right now were paying the price for a couple of years of shocking drafting..and a couple more years of ordinary drafting and ordinary trading. Weve "skipped a generation" draft-wise

Our crop of "mid-age" players are Ok, honest battlers, triers, but no real "stars"

from 22-25 we have no Riewoldts, Dangerfields or Sidebottoms...of course they dont all have to be but tbh we need one or two to really stand out from the pack. Its what takes a Top 8 side and makes them a Top 4 side...and tbh its pretty obvious if we are going to have players of that calibre they will cone from the group currently 21 and under...which means to genuinely challenge in the next 3-4 years we are going to ask for hurculean efforts from a bunch of blokes in their 30's

[The Craw]

I will take our 6-6 2012 Watters first year any day of the week compared to 2007 Lyon first year.

Gotta be fair here but comparing 2009 to 2012 is a bit harsh...... let the bloke settle in for Christ sake !!!!

[Leo.J]

I think we'll get right this year, and I believe we did against Carlton, I just hope we don't leave our run to do it consistently too late.

Stanley's return is important IMO.

He makes us alot more versatile and harder to match up on.

He will make Kosi alot more dangerous also.

While we haven't been able to lock down a top 4 side we've shown that we can score heavily and fast against 3 of the top 4 sides and beaten one of them.

We haven't scored heavily against top sides since the GT era.

IMO we're not far away from getting the balance right, which is reducing our opponents by a goal or two a quarter.

A key defender is my only concern, as most of the key forwards are lining up to kick bags on us.

I don't know why this has to be reduced to a black/white issue, it's too simplistic imo.

I don't like losing, I do like kicking goals, where as last year we lost and didn't kick many big scores.

This year we've done more of both so far compared to last year.

Ask me at the end of the year when it's all over where we stack up compared to a 09/10.

[perfectionist]

As a matter of fact, our problem in 2012 is exactly the same as it was in 2009/10. Our inability to convert. Without doubt, every team misses shots they should get, but we have made an art-form out of it. It goes back many years. The only time when we were relatively good was when Tony Lockett was up front. Even then, on the one day that it mattered, he kicked 9 goals 5 behinds and 2 complete misses, all bar one were sitters for him (it remains the best display of FF play I have ever seen). We were better in 2004/05 because of one man - no, not Fraser - but Aaron. He was a real crunch goal getter. If we needed a goal and he got the ball, it would invariably go through - and in big games. In 2009, Geelong beat us on the day because they made the most of their opportunities (and even got a little help from a goal umpire). On the other hand, we made the least of about ten.

It was obvious to anyone who could think that Jason Blake was never going to be a match for Kurt Tippett (it should have been Sam). It was also obvious that Jason has been our best ruckman so far this year, with the possible exception of one game from Rhys Stanley. Whatever abilities Scott Watters might have, picking the best team doesn't seem to be one of them.

Finally, winning is the only satisfactory outcome of any Saints game for me. I've never been bored by a win, but I am always disappointed in a loss. This trait was evident in the 60s when I was a boy. If we lost, I would come home, go into my bedroom, slam the door and cry into the pillow. This would last about half an hour, just as the replay was beginning and dinner was ready. But as we get older, things change. I can no longer watch a replay of a loss.

[desertsaint]

Did think we went about he crows and tigers game completely wrong, but still just missed out. Should've done our usual strangulation on the crows. Played as we did vs Carlton, or even tighter. We know that's the way to beat Adelaide.
Why we didn't? Perhaps too tired? Whatever the reason we played into their hands.
But back to the topic...
Saints 2012 > saints 2007 by some way!
Watters needs time, unfortunately with our list he doesn't have enough.

[mad saint guy]

In 2009 we averaged 96 points per game. 14 goals and 12 behinds. Our opponents averaged 62 points (9.8). Sure there was incredible defence but by no means was that "boring."

I don't think anyone was bored when we utterly dominated the opposition in almost every aspect of the game. People were bored when we used to get two goals up in the first quarter and defend that lead for the rest of the game. Or the games when Lyon made the judgement that we were too undermanned to win on merit so he just tried to shut the game down completely to drag the opposition down with us.

Overall I think we're playing a much better style of footy this year than in '10 and '11. But we've been sorely lacking a gorilla FB, the composure to convert opportunities and any real impact from the likes of Goddard and Montagna (players who can genuinely turn a game around). Having Schneider's elite skills back is huge, getting Saad and Stanley (our two best forward pressure players) back will also make our forward line much more potent. I'm glad that we've finally stopped persisting with the likes of Peake and Polo and given Siposs some decent game time as well as giving Armo a decent go in the midfield. Now if only Ledger could replace Jones..

[plugger66]

In 2009 we averaged 96 points per game. 14 goals and 12 behinds. Our opponents averaged 62 points (9.8). Sure there was incredible defence but by no means was that "boring."

I don't think anyone was bored when we utterly dominated the opposition in almost every aspect of the game. People were bored when we used to get two goals up in the first quarter and defend that lead for the rest of the game. Or the games when Lyon made the judgement that we were too undermanned to win on merit so he just tried to shut the game down completely to drag the opposition down with us.

Overall I think we're playing a much better style of footy this year than in '10 and '11. But we've been sorely lacking a gorilla FB, the composure to convert opportunities and any real impact from the likes of Goddard and Montagna (players who can genuinely turn a game around). Having Schneider's elite skills back is huge, getting Saad and Stanley (our two best forward pressure players) back will also make our forward line much more potent. I'm glad that we've finally stopped persisting with the likes of Peake and Polo and given Siposs some decent game time as well as giving Armo a decent go in the midfield. Now if only Ledger could replace Jones..

But Jones has been very good this year.

[skeptic]

This thread seems a bit silly

Sure we're scoring more and opposition are scoring more against us then what we've become used to but:

- Our backline is really unsettled. Dawson has gone with no obvious replacement brought back. Simpkin is being trialled, our most experienced defender in Blake has alternated to cover the ruck, McEvoy hasn't been around to drop back, Gwilt and Clarke are returning from injury, Fisher has been out injured, Geary is the new guy but has missed a week too, Gilbert is trying despartely to find form and looks to be doing a bit better... Newnes is having a go.

The bottom line for our backs is: we all knew preseason that we were a bit short down back... and due to injuries, the line up has been unsettled.

We really should wait until the end of the season before measuring their performance

Further to that, I think it's incorrect to infer that people are happy with losing in high scoring games. People are feeling buoyant and optimistic because our much maligned "no talent" coming through youth... well some of them are looking pretty good.
Geary and Stanley have gone from likely delistees to almost cemented in the seniors
Newnes looks promising
Armo and Steven have continued to improve
Milera and Saad have both come out of nowhere
Simpkin looks a winner

All in all, there's reason to happy with performance even if we;ve fallen short a bit

[SaintPav]

This isn't a silly thread at all but anyway....we are clearly playing a better "brand" of footy and I expect us to now play more Friday night games next year because of it but bottom line is that I want to WIN...so I guess I'd take the boring footy anyday as long as we bank the points and get a chnace to play off..btw, it wasn't always that boring...

[Moods]

I was a huge Lyon fan, and still am. Unlike many I will always be grateful for what he brought to our club - which was steely professionalism and the first real chance of a flag in my lifetime. I loved those years. I loved going to those finals. Call me a masochist but I even loved being part of competitive GF's. I was proud to be a sainter, and RL gave us that pride. We earnt the respect of the footy world.

HOWEVER - 2011 showed that this list was no longer capable of that style for whatever reason. It was time to move on. Watters has brought a new game. Yes it is more exciting, and to an extent I agree with what you are saying Joffa - nothing beats winning. I'm not convinced (and it will forever be a mute argument) that we would have been any more successful this year under Lyon.

To say that you enjoyed the game does NOT mean you enjoyed watching the saints lose last night or any other night. What I can see in these losses is hope though. Some of the losses last year looked like the players were stale. This year we're fighting to the bitter end. As a supporter I reckon that's all you can ask from your team. Different players are being used. Younger players. Finally some of the players we despaired over appear to look like they can play, ie Armo, Stanley, Geary even.

I hated losing FRiday night. I was nearly thrown out with the dog due to my appalling language and thumping of furniture whilst watching the game. Who could bare to watch that many easy shots go astray? I can reconcile that loss and similar lossess far easier though as I can see what Watters is trying to do. As a supporter you always have to have hope. I may not believe that we will win the flag this year, but I have hope for the future. In the mean time my team is giving me value for money.

[skeptic]

the results are not mutally exclusive

boring footy doesn't mean we win or lose... had plenty of boring/slower games with both sets of results

ditto exciting footy.

I'd say our results at the moment reflect more where we're at as a team rather than the style of footy we play

[saintsRrising]

HOWEVER - 2011 showed that this list was no longer capable of that style for whatever reason. .

No, the list was very capable of that style too..though hampered without Lenny and Gwilt plus a fit Roo.

What had changed was that opposition coaches had worked out how to beat that gameplan.

The beauty of AFL is that it keeps changing. Stagnate and you get left behind, and we saw that too with the GT "streak"...unbeatable till opposition coaches worked out how to beat it.

Like you I am a fan of what Lyon did with the Saints (though I hate how he left). He innovated, and in his innovation he made the most of our strengths and also overcame our weaknesses. But any gameplan, and structure has a lifespan.

Footy is not like diving.

You do not win by being judged the most aesthetic. You win by being the most effective.

It just so happens that at present that gameplans and structures favours football that is very aesthetic to watch. But be in no doubt. AFL will evolve and evolve again. Sooner or later an "ugly" gameplan may well emerge that may be dominant.

But even with the current attacking dominance good defense is important. Yes we missed easy goals, but equally we failed to block Tippets run at the ball.
The Blues were rampant and flag favourites, but the Dons worked out to deny space to their fast smalls was how to overcome them. We did likewise and dominated them. It is not just lack of form as tho why the Blues are losing, but that their gameplan has been countered.

Now with Lyon
His gameplan was innovative, and it gave us a competitive adavantage. It should have delivered a flag...an amazingly dominant year, and then dominated the Cats in the GF to only let them back into the game by stupid misses like Mini running into an open goal and butchering it. Game should have been over at half-time.

With Watters

i like very much what he has done. But a key point to note is that while it has replaced the outmoded, and now ineffective Lyon Gameplan, and that it has made us competitive that it is not unique and does not provide us with any competitive advanatage.

We have to win with it by being better in our execution. With Lyon's Gameplan for a couple of seasons it gave us an extra edge, and meant our opponents were handicapped.

In 2012 the playing field is level gameplan wise, and this is why skill errors are so costly....because it is through players playing well you win. If you have the right players, that is. We have addressed pace and skill deficiencies in our team to a large extent, but our structure lacks for a good ruckman and fair dinkum full back.

But do not get blinded just by the attack...if players do not zone, block and myriad of other team oriented acts the team will get ripped part.