Dear Ross Lyon

[BigMart]

Hamill,Gehrig, Voss, Hudghton,Harvey were all 30 odd

Morabito, Hill, Fyfe and other on the way up.... They are not in dire straits but not 'with a bullet either'

Things can change in 3 months

[skeptic]

As far as freo go, they are far from finished

the concern is that traditionally RL teams are reliant on their stars... Freos best in Pav, Sandilands, etc are ageing and in decline

the question is will their next batch of potentials... and they have a few go from good players to great ones

Certainly RL is more than capable of developing at least that middle tier... Milne, Dawson, Blake, Gardiner all went from query their spot to established

[Winmar]

There's been a lot of rewriting of history going on since he left. I'm not sure many of us were complaining about the Ross' ability as a coach or the team's playing style in 2009. I certainly wasn't.

[saintly]

thanks Saintly

does the history still go back that far?

it would be a while to get back to it. but currently there are 634 pages that could be trawled through. I am sure you you only have to get back to two yeats ago, or sometime even last year.

[saintly]

There's been a lot of rewriting of history going on since he left. I'm not sure many of us were complaining about the Ross' ability as a coach or the team's playing style in 2009. I certainly wasn't.

I also wasn't in 2009. But 2009, was the only year where i felt confident in going to a game and expecting even knowing we would win.

In 2010 i wasn't confident, and somehow we got to the grand final and i knew that we were knowwhere near the same as in 2009.

Except in 2009, there were many who complained about his style, who was picked in the team, who was drafted etc

[ralphsmith]

He chose to leave, so F*** off.

Good coach, but coaching somewhere else.... So F*** him

Eloquent and to the point.

[Johnny Member]

As far as freo go, they are far from finished

the concern is that traditionally RL teams are reliant on their stars... Freos best in Pav, Sandilands, etc are ageing and in decline

the question is will their next batch of potentials... and they have a few go from good players to great ones

Certainly RL is more than capable of developing at least that middle tier... Milne, Dawson, Blake, Gardiner all went from query their spot to established

Not sure I agree with that.


Milne is pretty much the same player he's always been. Just slightly more mature.

Dawson was, and still is a 'query' to many people.

Blake was coached well by Lyon. He fit the mould of 'don't do anything that involves instinct or flair' perfectly. It worked for him.

Gardiner? Not sure what Lyon did there? He was a gun who had bad knees at West Coast. With us, he was a 'good' player with bad knees and bad hammies and bad feet!

[Johnny Member]

There's been a lot of rewriting of history going on since he left. I'm not sure many of us were complaining about the Ross' ability as a coach or the team's playing style in 2009. I certainly wasn't.

I was.


Well, perhaps not complaining as such, but certainly worried about it.

Worried about the inabiluity to score freely and when required. And worried about the total reliance on individual (namely Roo) performance.

[Johnny Member]

Ross was judged to be one of he best coaches based on his coaching performance and the perception of the St Kilda list. Throughout his tenure at the Saints most thought the top end talent was very good however dropped off significantly after that. Basically he coached an above average team (not great) to successive grand finals, almost winning two in the process however ultimately falling short on both occasions.

Myth and misconception.

Average team my arse.


Full of AAs and finalists for several years. Add 2 full pre-seasons and another 40 games of experience into Roo, Kosi, Dal, BJ, etc. etc. etc. and anyone who thought he was taking over an 'average' list and/or took an 'average' list into 2009 is mad.

The 'average' part of it is what he recruited and selected each week.

[Johnny Member]

I have no doubt that without RL's game plan we would probably have made the first week of the finals and gone no further. That was how we were tracking under GT I reckon.

GT was done. I would have kept in for the 07 season and if we didn't win the flag that year his time was up.

So I don't know what GT's coaching ability or ideals have to do with Lyon. the only thing GT's time at the club had to do with Ross Lyon was that it provided him with the calibre of player that was able to make Grand Finals despite a flawed game plan.

[SainterK]

There's been a lot of rewriting of history going on since he left. I'm not sure many of us were complaining about the Ross' ability as a coach or the team's playing style in 2009. I certainly wasn't.

I was.


Well, perhaps not complaining as such, but certainly worried about it.

Worried about the inabiluity to score freely and when required. And worried about the total reliance on individual (namely Roo) performance.

Yes, like skeptic who had reservations long before 2011, Rodger was always concerned about the 'kick it to Roo' gameplan and how the GP appeared built around one guy.

[Johnny Member]

Yes, like skeptic who had reservations long before 2011, Rodger was always concerned about the 'kick it to Roo' gameplan and how the GP appeared built around one guy.

This Rodger Fox dude sounds pretty switched on. Sounds handsome too.

[SainterK]

Yes, like skeptic who had reservations long before 2011, Rodger was always concerned about the 'kick it to Roo' gameplan and how the GP appeared built around one guy.

This Rodger Fox dude sounds pretty switched on. Sounds handsome too.

Well as much as people have a go at me for never criticising Lyon, they cannot deny I had similar concerns to this handsome dude, and constantly posted threads with inside 50 targets (from pro-stats which is unfortunately not operating anymore) and how Roo was the target much more than he should of been.

[joffaboy]

Yes, like skeptic who had reservations long before 2011, Rodger was always concerned about the 'kick it to Roo' gameplan and how the GP appeared built around one guy.

This Rodger Fox dude sounds pretty switched on. Sounds handsome too.

No Mr Member he was a total knob.

Why wont you address the fact that in the 09 GF we were 7.7 to 7.1 at halftime, with many of those behinds easy goals?

That is not inability to score just extremely poor kicking for goal. We should have been at least four goals up at halftime.

The second half was a slog because of the extremely bruising affair the GF was and the fact that it had rained for a lot of the first half and most of the second.

We could score but the players not the coach cost us that GF. The execution was the issue. It is plain to see 7.7 to 7.1.

Players fault and players fault ONLY.

[markp]

Roger Fox also said it didn't matter who was in our bottom 6... now we don't really have one and we're doing ok, so I guess maybe he was right about that!

[SainterK]

You are so wrong this time JB

Everything about the blueprint of a GF is the coach, not just Ross, but every premiership won or lost is as much about the guy in the box as the players.

The players he selects, the game plan he implements, how fatigued/fresh the players are, who he decides he wants in the middle, how he handles half time, matchups, positioning...

You cannot wash hands of it after the fact.

You just can't.

I even found Mick doing the same earlier this year about last years GF distasteful, talking about player weaknesses and how they'd of won if so-and-so did this or that.

Well he selected them, he knew their strengths/weakenesses.

Much the same with Ross.

I don't buy this 'I was perfect, the players weren't' rubbish....that is self preservation talk.

[Johnny Member]

Roger Fox also said it didn't matter who was in our bottom 6... now we don't really have one and we're doing ok, so I guess maybe he was right about that!

Did he?


Well I cant speak for him, but I will say this..


Our 'top 6' are playing really good footy. And when the 'top 6' play good footy, the 'bottom 6' don't seem to look like a 'bottom 6'.

When the 'top 6' are out of form or not on the park, and the 'bottom 6' are required to become a 'middle 6', teams struggle.

If a guy like Milera for example, was forced to play a role such as Jack Steven's, he would really look like a 'bottom 6' player and our depth would suddenly be questioned.

But currently, with out good players playing well, he's able to play a cameo role which is within his means and his ability. So he's able to do it well and not stand out as a 'bottom 6' player.



Have a look at Dawes at Collingwood. Deadset turnip and I'd say in the 'bottom 6' (figuratively speaking) at Collingwood. But, due to the way their gun players were giving him the ball, and the way Cloke would take 3 opponents, he looked good!

They've been out of form (late last year) and Cloke han't been dominating, and suddenly Dawes looks like a 'bottom 6' player.

[saint75]

You are so wrong this time JB

Everything about the blueprint of a GF is the coach, not just Ross, but every premiership won or lost is as much about the guy in the box as the players.

The players he selects, the game plan he implements, how fatigued/fresh the players are, who he decides he wants in the middle, how he handles half time, matchups, positioning...

You cannot wash hands of it after the fact.

You just can't.

I even found Mick doing the same earlier this year about last years GF distasteful, talking about player weaknesses and how they'd of won if so-and-so did this or that.

Well he selected them, he knew their strengths/weakenesses.

Much the same with Ross.

I don't buy this 'I was perfect, the players weren't' rubbish....that is self preservation talk.

Excellent post. As much as 'bad kicking is bad footy', mistakes in the coaches box also cost games. Ross got us to a GF, but he wasn't able to win us one. The players who played in all 3 GF's had nothing left to give so their effort cannot be questioned. What if's are pointless. We didn't win one so it is time to move on from Ross and the GF losses.

Hopefully Watters can rectify this. I like his match day coaching so far, time will tell exactly how capable he is.

[Johnny Member]

Yes, like skeptic who had reservations long before 2011, Rodger was always concerned about the 'kick it to Roo' gameplan and how the GP appeared built around one guy.

This Rodger Fox dude sounds pretty switched on. Sounds handsome too.

No Mr Member he was a total knob.

Why wont you address the fact that in the 09 GF we were 7.7 to 7.1 at halftime, with many of those behinds easy goals?

That is not inability to score just extremely poor kicking for goal. We should have been at least four goals up at halftime.

The second half was a slog because of the extremely bruising affair the GF was and the fact that it had rained for a lot of the first half and most of the second.

We could score but the players not the coach cost us that GF. The execution was the issue. It is plain to see 7.7 to 7.1.

Players fault and players fault ONLY.

Firstly, how many of those behinds were rushed?

We only had 3 more scoring shots than Geelong. We had 4 rushed behinds for the match, they had none.

So the 'we kicked ourselves out of it' thing may have been exaggerated a bit over time.


The other thing to address is that we only had 3 more shots, but had 16 more Inside 50s!!! 16! Our efficiency going forward was woeful. It always was under Lyon. There was no system. It was up to Roo to outmark 4 players for us to score.

The other thing to address, is that Lyon recruited Schneider, who was questionable under pressure when we got him. Sydney let him go without a fight. So when he misses easy goals under pressure, is it really fair for the bloke who recruited him and selected him and knows he has a history of it - to sit back and say 'Whoa! What a shocking surprise! Schneider missed a sitter in a big game??!'. I don't think so.

Milne ditto. McQualter not much different.

These guys had known flaws. Flaws that people were foolishly believing the Ross Lyon hype that he'd fixed. He hadn't fixed them. We'd seen awesome seasons from some 'top 6' players that masked the flaws in other players' games and flaws in the game plan.

With Lenny tagged by Bartel in the 2nd half, and Roo not having an impact, we managed only 9 goals in a game of football. 9 goals when you win pretty much all the 'KPIs' surely tells us there is a flawed system in place.

How can you win every KPI and have 16 more Inside 50s - yet only have 3 more shots at goal than your opponent? How can that happen if you have a solid, balanced and effective game plan?

If Roo was fit, dare I say having 16 more Inside 50s would have meant at least more than just the 3 extra scoring shots we had. But he wasn't fit. And when he couldn't single handedly drag us over the line (see the Collingwood final that year, and the Bulldogs Prelim) we were stuffed. Lyon had nothing, and guys with known flaws in their game suddenly (but not surprsingly) had those flaws bob up.

[Johnny Member]

Note also, that in the forst 11 games of 2009 we kicked 100+ points in 7 out of the 11 matches.

For the remainder of the season (including 3 finals) we only managed it in 5 of the 14 games.

We lost 0 games in the first 11, but lost 3 of that next 14.

The signs were there.


So what happened in the finals and on GF day wasn't, or shouldn't have been, a huge surprise. We'd clearly shown signs that we were either slowing down, being worked out by our opponents or simply had a game plan that had neglected offence.

[Johnny Member]

In the first half of 09, we never kicked less than 80 points either. Infact we only kicked less than 90 points once.

In the second half (including finals) we were unable to kick more than 80 points on 5 occasions.


The signs were there. But Lyon I believe, preferred to ignore tham and believe his own hype.


He's doing it again at Freo. And fingers crossed for us and the rest of the footy world, he continues to do so.

[dragit]

[samoht]

St Kilda should have improved as it became accustomed to and grown familiar with RL's defensive game plan, that was the expectation at least - yet as we all know we went from 20 wins down to 15 wins down to 12 wins in 3 consecutive years.
Ray's stats are also interesting (as they followed a similar downward path under RL) - in his first season Ray averaged 20 possessions per match then went down to 15 then 12.

Freo is injury free and should be flying this year compared to last year when it was plagued with injuries.
Is it ?
Will Freo improve as they get used to his game plan, did St kilda, did Ray ??

[joffaboy]

You are so wrong this time JB

Everything about the blueprint of a GF is the coach, not just Ross, but every premiership won or lost is as much about the guy in the box as the players.

The players he selects, the game plan he implements, how fatigued/fresh the players are, who he decides he wants in the middle, how he handles half time, matchups, positioning...

You cannot wash hands of it after the fact.

You just can't.

I even found Mick doing the same earlier this year about last years GF distasteful, talking about player weaknesses and how they'd of won if so-and-so did this or that.

Well he selected them, he knew their strengths/weakenesses.

Much the same with Ross.

I don't buy this 'I was perfect, the players weren't' rubbish....that is self preservation talk.

Rubbish.

Lyon is being lambasted by revisionism from RodgerFox.

heres some stats for you.

Conversion

St.Kilda 39.1%
Geelong 60%

Inside 50's per goal

St.Kilda 6.44
Geelong 3.5

% Inside 50 Score

St.Kilda 32.8%
Geelong 47.6%

% Inside 50 per goal

St.Kilda 15.5%
Geelong 28.6%

First half - Scoring efficiency

St.Kilda 58.1%
Geelong 87.5%


Every indicator showed that we got the ball into an attacking position very often in that game but wasted it terribly.

You want to abbrogate blame from the players when it was down to them to kick the friggin goals when they had the opportunity.

Yes it was all Ross Lyons fault.

He instructed Schneider to miss from the goal square, for McQualter to miss a sitter, for Milne to dribble it from 40 metres into an open goal square and not even make the goal line.

Fair Dinkum some of you people are incredible for your forgiveness of the real culprits - the players and the way they CHOKED in front of goals.

Open your bloody eyes

[joffaboy]

St Kilda should have improved as it became accustomed to and grown familiar with RL's defensive game plan, that was the expectation at least - yet as we all know we went from 20 wins down to 15 wins down to 12 wins in 3 consecutive years.
Ray's stats are also interesting (as they followed a similar downward path under RL) - in his first season Ray averaged 20 possessions per match then went down to 15 then 12.

Freo is injury free and should be flying this year compared to last year when it was plagued with injuries.
Is it ?
Will Freo improve as they get used to his game plan, did St kilda, did Ray ??

No Tommy Walsh would have won us a premiership if only that dastardly villian Lyon had have seen the potential that you spotted.

Too bad Lyon didn't grow a twirly moustache for you people.