Jason Gram's game

[bergholt]

Anyone calling any AFL footballer soft is a fool.

it's all relative - some of them must be softer than others, right?

[Little Dozer]

Gram is infuriating because he has more natural ability than probably 50% of any listed AFL player. If Gram attacked the footy and put in 100% of the time he would be a favourite son. The fact that he doesn't, and his at times woeful disposal, is the reason this topic is often discussed. He should make way for Fisher on Saturday's effort.

[joffaboy]

Anyone calling any AFL footballer soft is a fool.

it's all relative - some of them must be softer than others, right?

No AFL footballer is soft. it is only anonymous armchair critics on an internet forum who could only dream of playing at that level who call them soft.

[joffaboy]

Gram is infuriating because he has more natural ability than probably 50% of any listed AFL player.

How was that measured? By one of your brain farts?

Subjective rubbish.

[Little Dozer]

You absolute imbecile Joffa. It was measured by his outstanding form earlier in his St Kilda career and his GF performance in 2009, which would have resulted in a Norm Smith and a premiership medallion if not for our horrendous luck. It's a safe bet that 50% of current AFL players wouldn't ever dream of reaching those heights, you cretin. Now offer something to the discussion other than cliches about AFL players being soft or jog on bellend.

[Dave McNamara]

No AFL footballer is soft. It is only anonymous armchair critics on an internet forum who could only dream of playing at that level who call them soft.

Totally agree JB. That's why I wouldn't call him soft. I do however question his commitment to the cause and his effort. I base this on how he comes across from my observations - which I've expressed in other posts so won't bore peeps' again with another rant. Not knowing Grammy personally nor anyone who does, I (rightly I think) have to leave it at being my perception based on my observations. I'm happy to leave the statements of fact to those who do know better...

Gram is infuriating because he has more natural ability than probably 50% of any listed AFL player.

How was that measured? By one of your brain farts? Subjective rubbish.

In defence of LD..., though whilst composing this I spotted that he/she can defend themselves...

More personal observation based opinion here JB... I reckon Grammy is extremely talented - basketball also I hear... but as a footballer... booming (if sometimes wayward) long kick, accurate short kick, very fast (with ball in hand) and one of the best subtle baulks in the game. He can also be a committed defender - eg 2009 GF v a Geelong team that actually were not pussies. He can also tag effectively plus hurt the opposition the other way (Judd).

So, yeah, I reckon the bloke can really play. That's why the Grammy that I have observed this year frustrates the hell outta' me...

[rexy]

Always find the Gram posts interesting, I like many find him infuriating but understand why we pick him, comparing him to Geary as someone did is laughable, Geary is our hard nosed small defender. I like what gram brings but dont like what he refuses to do at times. If we can unearth someone who can bring the run but be harder when needed then he will be in trouble IMO.

[Ross who?]

Scott Watters was very keen to get Gram back in the team.

Reason being because he can run and carry through the press and can penetrate with his kicking.

He is ideal with our setup. Carry 20-30 metres, kick it 50, and we have it in the forward fifty with Milera, Saad, and Milne attacking off the crumbs from Riewoldt and Kosi.

Really some of you people dont really understand our setup and its counter to the forward press that most teams employ.

Would be very suprised if Gram was out.

Anyone calling any AFL footballer soft is a fool.

Gram has 8 tackles from his 5 games in 2012. Not enough for a defender IMO. Please tell point out to me where I could find vision of Gram making a hard ball get. Softness is like a disease. "Grammy is not required to do the hard stuff, why should I?"
0.4 kicking at goal is not great either, as from my memory they were all better than 50/50 chances.

I think that Raph would give the team more than Gram is presently.
Just my 2 cents worth.....

[vacuous space]

Despite reputations, Gram has the second lowest rate of turnovers on our team (behind Roo, ahead of BJ and Dal). Out of our defenders, he's behind Fisher and Blake in terms of contested possession (Fisher 6.2, Blake 5.9, Gram 5.8). He's old and outside and therefore uncool, so he's the popular choice for people trying to wedge their favourite kids into the team. On performance he's nowhere close to being dropped.

IMO, the only changes from our current team to our best 22 would be Cripps and Siposs for Fisher and Schneider.

[mad saint guy]

Gram's disposal has been a bit better this year than in '10 and '11 but I still don't think he deserves a spot on the back of his poor intensity. He is an expert at running loose and gathering kicks at half back but his ball use still isn't particularly good and he can't break the lines like he used to. The real killer is his poor attack on the ball and weak defensive efforts. I'd rather we bring Schneider or Raph into the team at Gram's expense. At least with Schneider you get elite ball use and with Raph you get excellent defensive skills and courage.

[noob]

I'd be more inclined to swap fisher for gilbert than gram.

[spert]

Gram is quietly doing the job down back, and like most of his team-mates, makes the odd mistake and doesn't land every tackle.

[BigMart]

God there's some f***ing rubbish on this thread.

I'll say it again

The myth that Gram haven't played well since the 09 GF is completely wrong. Some should do a tad of research before continually bringing it up. Maybe it was the worst thing he did, as his performances have been measured against a BOG every week. Should he get thirty every game?? It reminds me of the Kosi syndrome, he's suffered for 7 years...

Do we also remember he was a Runner up B&F a michael tuck medallist and 4 years in a row top 8 in the B&F.

He was not fully fit in 2010-2011 but looks reasonably fit again

He is easily in our best 22
easily in our best 18
Probably in our best 12
Possibly in our best 10

Ross Lyon rated him Top 6

[SainterK]

Happy with Gram since his return.

Getting enough of it, working hard on his kicking, keeping his opponent honest.

Only thing I'd like to see from him is more goals, kicked 20 in 08, then 12, 9, 5...none so far in his 5 games so far.

[Freebird]

Gram needs another spell in the VFL. He missed so many tackles last night, avoided a few body on body clashes and I am always nervous when he is one on one. Yes, he can be swung into the midfield and can break the lines through his run and carry but if Sam Fisher is fit perhaps Gram is the one to go as he lacks the physicality and defensive skills of others in the team.

Thoughts?

Spot on, great post.
As soft as butter. disposal is hit and miss. Others could do a better job IMO. Raph at least has courage, and at his best is very good. Chips is a certainty if fit anyway. Gram looks like the only weak link in the team ATM for mine.
Gram out is the only option unless we push BJ up the ground.

Dont think Chips replaces Gram. I must be watching a different player but I think he had a very consistant year and more importantly seems to always beat who he plays on. I reckon some here go into games hoping someone will play bad and then talk themselves into the fact they did play bad. Maybe I am the other way because I think Gram is important. Only the selectors know the true answer.

this

[skeptic]

On a little side note, you do realise JB that when ppl criticise players and label them in critical ways they mean it by "AFL standards".

Over the last few seasons I questioned and have been critical of Andrew McQualter who I felt was a player that wasn't effective and wasn't good enough to be playing for us.

I stand by that but that doesn't mean he's a terrible footballer. He's a guy that was a 1st round pick, played what... 100 odd games for 2 clubs over 5 seasons and 2 grandfinals in the most elite sport in Australia... even if he can't/couldn't cut it at AFL level he's still a phenominal footballer... one of the best in the country... as is Jones, Kosi, Raph and all the maligned players in the AFL.

Most ppl just reach that conclusion silently on their own and understand it... u seem to have missed it

[desertsaint]

So if Chips is fit and Geary ain't injured, who goes out?
Not Simpkin, not Blake, not Ray, not Gwilt, not Dempster, not BJ.
So unless we go even more defensive and leave out cripps or siposs (which we may), who is it - gilbert or gram?
I see more upside in Gilbert and think Gram needs to be given a smack on the bum.
Imagine how good he could be if he had Blake's heart or Geary's courage, or at least pretended he had.

[Dave McNamara]

So if Chips is fit and Geary ain't injured, who goes out?
Not Simpkin, not Blake, not Ray, not Gwilt, not Dempster, not BJ.
So unless we go even more defensive and leave out cripps or siposs (which we may), who is it - gilbert or gram?
I see more upside in Gilbert and think Gram needs to be given a smack on the bum.
Imagine how good he could be if he had Blake's heart or Geary's courage, or at least pretended he had.

Solid 24 carat rolled gold!

[The darkness]

So if Chips is fit and Geary ain't injured, who goes out?
Not Simpkin, not Blake, not Ray, not Gwilt, not Dempster, not BJ.
So unless we go even more defensive and leave out cripps or siposs (which we may), who is it - gilbert or gram?
I see more upside in Gilbert and think Gram needs to be given a smack on the bum.
Imagine how good he could be if he had Blake's heart or Geary's courage, or at least pretended he had.

Solid 24 carat rolled gold!

Maybe there's a tatt for that ?

[andrewg]

Can't understand bigmarts blind faith in gram???? You defend him really passionately and it is a little strange because I watched gram live on Saturday and if I had to pick our 22nd best player he was it. Sorry to all te gram fans buuuuuut
He isn't worth the money we pay him
His negative tweet regarding the "no coach training" situation late 2011 gave me an insight into his poor attitude and to make it public was a disgrace. Unfortunately due to form, history and what his pay cheque could "cost" us, Gram is not on my favorite player list anymore.

[BigMart]

My faith comes from his record as a player...... I think this whipping boy stuff is hilarious

I also think that if you think he was our 22nd best last week, you're a bit blinkered in your analysis.

[andrewg]

Who was worse bigmart??

Supercoach scores don't usually lie and here we're the bottom four saints players
Kosi 51
Gram 50
Gilbert 48
Geary (only played half a game) 37
Siposs ( played half a Game) 33

[spert]

Gram for captain!

[Dave McNamara]

My faith comes from his record as a player...... I think this whipping boy stuff is hilarious

I also think that if you think he was our 22nd best last week, you're a bit blinkered in your analysis.

Sorry Mart, you're under seige from everywhere it seems. Actually re Grammy you do have the support of people like P66 (shock!, horror!, amazing!, I know) and Mrs G, and several others. That's a lot of posters, all of whom's footy knowledge I rate above my own.

That said, Grammy's record as a player...? If you mean 2009 GF and before, then I'm a fan. Since then, and especially of late, it's more a case of one could choose to laugh or cry... Good on you for choosing to laugh (as you wrote), but for me, it's tears now.

He no longer offers any offensive danger to the opposition, and even at least one of his supporters conceded not to expect anything resembling Lennyesque attack on the contest (player or ball).

For mine he's keeping one of our kids out. Put one of them in and their positive output would fairly soon (possibly immediately) be more than Grammy's currently is. Ie; no downside. And the upside of one of these kids c/f Grammy..., well that's a no brainer I reckon.

So Grammy and our best 22...? IMHO and in no particular order nor exclusively (and of course you don't have to agree ); Ben, Fisher, Schneider, Raph, Ledger, Curren, Newnes, Ferg, Rhys, Dunnell, Ross, Wilkes (up forward), D'arch would all offer more now and going forward. Peeps may argue the toss on some of those guys, but even so, that so many names could be throw up as preferable to Grammy is a disgrace and an indictment considering his talent!

Grammy should be in his prime now, not playing like someone well and truly sliding down the slippery slope, and having excuses made for him.

Come on Grammy! You can do it. What's holding you back???

Gram for captain!

Not sure about everyone else on here spert, but I could live with that... coz captains have to do the one percenters and captains have to show steely grit and determination, and captains have to lead from the front...!

[dragit]

Ben, Fisher, Schneider, Raph, Ledger, Curren, Newnes, Ferg, Rhys, Dunnell, Ross, Wilkes (up forward), D'arch would all offer more now and going forward. Peeps may argue the toss on some of those guys, but even so, that so many names could be throw up as preferable to Grammy is a disgrace and an indictment considering his talent!

Dave you're getting right off your tucker here mate…

Sounding a little like ToTheTop with Milne or Tweedledum with Joey…

8 of those have proved absolutely nothing so far, two of which can't even play unless we get a long term injury.

Gram is a running defender, he's not an inside mid… Averaging 21 touches a game (same as J.Steven), he's been going alright without vying for a brownlow.

For whatever reason you don't like his attitude & think he isn't trying hard enough, same is said about Montagna. There is some kind of tough-guy mentality that perpetuates this myth particularly regarding more outside type players. "He needs a good kick up the arse" … much easier at home on the couch or up in the stands that is for sure.

They both look like they are trying to me… & obviously the selection panel thinks so too or they wouldn't be picked.