Dear Ross Lyon

[Con Gorozidis]

The thing I don't like is Ross distancing himself from the losses these days...

They were his players, implementing his game plan, following his instructions.

It was us, now it's they.

He sounds like a bank! Privatise their profits but then want to publicise their losses.

Id just call the bloke an a$$hole. I think the footy world is slowly catching on this guy's charade.

[desertsaint]

Thanks Ross....................

for Scott Watters.

BTW things must have been desperate for the Dockers if Zac kicked a goal.

This is a typical stop gap Lyon match move - he hasn't shown much imagination - sometimes it works - Gilbert in the first final in 2010; sometimes it doesn't - Gilbert in the replay; or bomb it to roo in the last quarter 09.

I reckon lyon's coaching got us there, and did very well in the first half of 09 (agree basically got there on roo's effort in the prelim), but failed us when the tussle required attack in the last quarter, rather than defence. An extra handy inside ball winner not sitting on the pine in that last quarter may have helped us too.

Yeah it's probably harsh to criticise 09 and 10, even with the saga of ball, maxy, kym, new zealand, and lovett.
The years leading up to it also were validated. He had a plan and stuck at it, got the players to adopt it and believe in it, and almost snagged two flags.
The events of 2011 showed up deeper problems and the players and himself didn't seem to have their hearts in it.
We missed a golden opportunity and many thought our time was done and the fall would be rapid.
But new blood, on and off the field, has shown we have a future, and it looks much healthier now than in 2011.
Without Ross.

[Scollop]

What fricken acknowledgement is there from Lyon that his ultra defensive gameplan or his coaching on the day, or his coaching groups preparation of the players was half to blame for the result in the derby on the weekend? Dickexcoach has only been there for 9 rounds and he's already talking of 'moving players on'...he's already talking of a 'rebuild'. Fair dinkum......nfi how to teach, develop and coach young blokes and turn them into confident footballers. How would you feel listening to that crap if you are on the list? Reeks of negative energy, blameshifting and is typical of the bloke.

[skeptic]

Like it or lump it RL in the GF in both 09 and 10 was poor

And like i said which has been glossed over... Ray play ONE good half of football... as in 50%... that is not a good game

And I never at any point said RL was a crap coach or that he didn't do well in 2009-10... again licence to illustrate on your respective parts

He was a good coach with a clear weakness that cost us dearly in Sept 2009-10

Alan Didak 17d, 5t and 1 goal - yeah totally shut out of the game

McQualter 10 possessions, 10t (his super saving grace supposedly) no goals,

Ray 13 possessions (11 of them handballs) but a "Super second half". That completely justified his nothingness in the 1st half. Wonder how possessions of his 21... Swan actually got in the 2nd half

Gram = 11 possessions, no goals, 6 tackles

Jones = 19 possessions including 10 handballs... not much effect

Eddy (not previously mentioned) = 10 possessions and 3 tackles


Let me us you plainly... Farren Ray, how do you rate his OVERALL game?

Let me get this straight because I had to re read your post. You're saying that Ross Lyon coached poorly in the drawn grand final? Is that what you are saying? That is so funny. Keep going because I really need a laugh today.... You are really covering yourself in glory.

You're looking for the perfect game of football played, the perfect game of football coached and the perfect season. It does not exist. However, the perfect posts do and you should refer to what was written previously by some others and you might get a clue.

Actually, I'm saying he picked a poor team for the drawn grandfinal with a handful of players that would have minimal effect that was plain for everyone to see. He did this on the back of a season where he persevered with some players that sustained poor form and consequently didn't devlop the players that could play better, hence he ultimately ran out of options.

Passenger = a player who performs below reasonable expectation and realies on the performance of others to make up for it.

We had a few of them that day covered by Herculean efforts from Roo and Goddard.

Don't get me wrong, nobody criticises RL for picking players like Peake who deserved their spot but were beaten on the day but...
McQualter was out of form
Ray was nothing special
Gram was unfit or playing poorly
Gardiner was ineffective
Dempster was not estblished (he didn't become the player he is until 2011)

(one could also make an argument for Jones but he at least played occasional decent games)

that's 5 players that one could easily anticipate poor to average games based on a sustained form throughout the season... of them all the best performance was = Ray's half a game of football which appears to have marvelled you despite the obvious flaw in the argument that his second half "got us back into the game" is countered by his 1st half of ineffectiveness which contributed to us being behind at half time.

What can I say... forgive me thinkning that half a game f football is not good enough

[starsign]

I am not sure that Freo is the best location for Ross.
His style of football is very tiring and I am not sure it will be easy to implement week in week out on the large open WACA ground.
It is very hard to stifle the opposition when there is so much room to play with.

Good point
It would seem to make it more difficult particularly over 4 quarters as witnessed against W C

[Garibaldi]

Was great for our club and should have been our 2nd premiership coach.

I can't hold any ill feeling towards the bloke. He did his best for us.

If only he knew how to use the other half of the paddock we may have two more cups.

In all seriousness though, the way the club has treated coaches over the years you would be looking to cover your butt if you thought you'd already given your best shot.

[IluvHarvey]

My thoughts on Lyon are -

He was good for our club at the time. He did what he needed to get us to 2 GF's.
He proved last year that he has no other tricks up his sleeve, therefore his time with us was up!
I think the game has moved on from his style and Freo will struggle to make a real impact with him.
They will probably play the odd finals series but will not be a serious contender.

My thoughts on Watters are -

He has shown some really promising things. We now play attacking football with a defensive style to it.
He is committed to playing "developing" players. Something Ross wasn't (you could argue right or wrong here).
Personally I enjoy Watters' game plan.

Lyon was good for the club not great (Great would have got us a premiership) but he is gone and I for one am glad.
He had nothing left at St Kilda and now we can start a new era.

However the way he went about leaving was terrible and I hope he fails at Fremantle!!!!

[saintly]

just looking at some of the Docker discussions on big footy or on dockerland.com and the same talk that was going on about ro$$ when he came in is exactly the same talk thats going on now. it very funny reading their comments. especially from those that are justifying his coaching appointmetn.

what i found also funny is Ro$$'s comments after Freo's loss that they need to rebuild their midfield. He went their becuase becuase they had a better list then the saints. We were at the so called 'end of an era'. their CEO at their AGM said they would be top 4 this year!

[markp]

He went their becuase becuase they had a better list then the saints. We were at the so called 'end of an era'.

He went there because they made what he considered an offer too good to refuse, and in his mind he obviously felt he could justify accepting.... a decision which most people here probably would have also made, if they didn't have their supporters hats on.

[skeptic]

The interesting thing about it is that i doubt with the way things went, they would have had much of an opportunity to i/v him and get his thoughts on the direction he felt the club needed to go... they just kind of signed him

[matrix]

potentially...this has the chance to beat the GT thread for number of pages

i await with baited breathe

[roxanne]

Gerard Healy said it on The Couch last night. All we were hearing when Ross walked was that Freo had a better list than the Saints. No one is saying that now.

[FortiusQuoFidelius]

Now i look back i actually wonder if ross may have cost us a premiership.. he never had a back up plan and rarely toyed with players in new areas or new players...... i believe thats what stuffed us in 09, we became to predictable....then in 2010 ill admit he made the right moves in gf1 but they werent by choice... he made the obvious moves due to injury..... gf2 well again wouldnt make changes then when decided to... tried to make exact same ones.. again predictable

Ross Lyon cost us a premiership when he decided not to give Luke Ball game time in the '09 grand final. In fact in hindsight this probably cost us 2 premierships because had Luke Ball not left St Kilda he most certainly would have made the difference in '10.

[joffaboy]

Now i look back i actually wonder if ross may have cost us a premiership.. he never had a back up plan and rarely toyed with players in new areas or new players...... i believe thats what stuffed us in 09, we became to predictable....then in 2010 ill admit he made the right moves in gf1 but they werent by choice... he made the obvious moves due to injury..... gf2 well again wouldnt make changes then when decided to... tried to make exact same ones.. again predictable

Ross Lyon cost us a premiership when he decided not to give Luke Ball game time in the '09 grand final. In fact in hindsight this probably cost us 2 premierships because had Luke Ball not left St Kilda he most certainly would have made the difference in '10.

Absolute GARBAGE.

What cost us in 09 was 7.7 to 7.1 at halftime. 10.4 or 11.3 and we wouldn't have lost.

And Luke Ball wasn't the difference between St.Kilda and Collingwood in 2010. The difference was we got lucky with Gardiner getting injured, throwing Kosi into the ruck, Gilbo up forward, and Lenny and bj almost getting us ovr the line.

Collingwood were far and away the best team of 2010 and if we won the flag we would have pinched.

these idiot statement about Luke Ball are banal and assanine

[SainterK]

He went their becuase becuase they had a better list then the saints. We were at the so called 'end of an era'.

He went there because they made what he considered an offer too good to refuse, and in his mind he obviously felt he could justify accepting.... a decision which most people here probably would have also made, if they didn't have their supporters hats on.

True.

Could of done it a bit better though...

Rather frazzeled during his last few moments was Rossy.

Retiring players that didn't want to be retired, playing Dempster in the forward line, convincing himself it was the end of an era to justify his decision to himself, accidently texting St Kilda that he was ready to sign...

Pretty busy fortnight or so.

[SainterK]

What cost us in 09 was 7.7 to 7.1 at halftime. 10.4 or 11.3 and we wouldn't have lost.

I think what some people are arguing though JB, is that it was incredibly hard to score under Ross...

You had to take those opportunities because they were limited under his gameplan...that brings with it it's own pressures, fatigue etc

He very cleary distances himself from the loss now, saying it's 'visions of players running into open goals and missing' that was the difference.

Well they were players he selected, implementing his game plan, having to make the most of those limited opportunties, so the mantle of falling agonising short belongs to him as well....however much he or anyone on here tries to argue otherwise.

[dragit]

What cost us in 09 was 7.7 to 7.1 at halftime. 10.4 or 11.3 and we wouldn't have lost.

I think what some people are arguing though JB, is that it was incredibly hard to score under Ross...

You had to take those opportunities because they were limited under his gameplan...that brings with it it's own pressures, fatigue etc

He very cleary distances himself from the loss now, saying it's 'visions of players running into open goals and missing' that was the difference.

Well they were players he selected, implementing his game plan, having to make the most of those limited opportunties, so the mantle of falling agonising short belongs to him as well....however much he or anyone on here tries to argue otherwise.

Bit counter-intuitive I think K, we had 31 inside 50's to 15 at half time… Hardly 'limited' opportunities to score. We missed the goals when we were on top, that is all.

[SainterK]

What cost us in 09 was 7.7 to 7.1 at halftime. 10.4 or 11.3 and we wouldn't have lost.

I think what some people are arguing though JB, is that it was incredibly hard to score under Ross...

You had to take those opportunities because they were limited under his gameplan...that brings with it it's own pressures, fatigue etc

He very cleary distances himself from the loss now, saying it's 'visions of players running into open goals and missing' that was the difference.

Well they were players he selected, implementing his game plan, having to make the most of those limited opportunties, so the mantle of falling agonising short belongs to him as well....however much he or anyone on here tries to argue otherwise.

Bit counter-intuitive I think K, we had 31 inside 50's to 15 at half time… Hardly 'limited' opportunities to score. We missed the goals when we were on top, that is all.

Inside 50's doesn't mean shots on goal though dragit, especially in those conditions.

The whole dominating in the first half v Cats coming back in second half lends itself to backing up it was fairly fatiguing to operate at that kind of level for too long?

Lenny was tagged after half time, Luke Ball (the other inside mid) sat on the bench spectating for a lot of it...which also was someone elses fault I believe?

I just don't like how he is removing himself from it only now, you're all in together IMO.

Good on him for coaching them to 3 grand finals, his responsibility doesn't end at the opening bounce though, it ends at the final siren.

[dragit]

Inside 50's doesn't mean shots on goal though dragit, especially in those conditions.

It should mean shots on goal, what else are we trying to do once it's inside 50? We had 14 shots, mostly getable

[SaintPav]

Very easy to point the finger now in 2012 and say he should have done this and should have done that. This conversation doesn't prove anything anyway and is all just a load of self serving sanctimonious tripe.

No one said that the game plan or Ross and his strategies and tactics were perfect. They clearly weren't but that is not the reason we lost.

The arguments are nonsensical in the first place becuase while there is recognition that Ross stuffed up fron these people, on the other hand it was his game plan that go us there in that position to play off in the first place. The point is that while it wasn't perfect, it worked and worked very well but the forwards failed to execute on the day.

Did posters like Septic and others make these call at the time? I'd say no...At least SainterK has the guts to back certain players in.

What are they proposing that Watters and the club do now, today as in the year 2012. Any useful ideas becuase I'd love to hear them or are they just going to wait until 2015 and say that Watters should have played this player and should have done that?

Well, I'm waiting.

[dragit]

Well, I'm waiting.

In
Ledger, Newnes, Siposs, Ross, Markworth
Out
Jones, Gram, Montagna, Milne, Kosi

[gringo]

I grew to love the Ross while he was with us but remember the teething year when he kept saying he was going to exit our players that failed to adhere to his structure. I just remember the lack of compassion when Jayden Attard had been his pet -tagging any one that looked half decent out of the game. Did his knee and Ross helped see him out the door.

He seems to have a borderline sociopathic personality at times. He doesn't subscribe to the old school Aussie mateship and bonding team ethos more the each cog in the machine is a part that can easily be up graded to a more precise or better engineered one.

hope he gets bit on the bum by them cashed up westies and he and Wallsey can get a TV gig reminiscing about their days as attack dog and master.

[Sobraz]

Ross and Zac's relationship is one that Im thoroughly enjoying from the opposite side of the country...

Zac is playing some sh1t football at the moment ('cos he's a sh1t footballer), and the Freo fans have him in there sights... All the while, we have a probable 10 year brutal bull of a fullback who doesn't man watch and take cheap shots...

Also loving how Ray is now released from playing Ross roles and using his natural talent and flair... The last few weeks have been the best footy of his career... Seems revitalized as a player... The whole team does..

[Spinner]

Best coach in the AFL.

[skeptic]

Did posters like Septic and others make these call at the time? I'd say no...At least SainterK has the guts to back certain players in.

One frustrating thing is that the answer was yes... didn't like the team selected at the time and I said so... can't prove it now and you just go on and on about calling me a hindsight specialist whilst forumites that have been here longer like Sainter K can at least remember that my criticism started growing a lot more mid 2010.



My issue in 09 was a simple one. As the game at TD in 09 showed Geelong were a strong finishing team which meant we needed run. Anything less than an 6-7 goal 3/4 time lead was going to go down to the wire.

The team we selected had both king and Gardiner who were average at best then... Dempster as a forward utility (not the close checking defender we have since come to love). 2 of 3 of them shd have made way for runners.

In the last 1/4 we fatigued, lost the ability to run and spread and could barely get our hands on the pill... which was compounded by the decision to take Ball off which was a MISTAKE the coaches acknowledged although in my opinon they did it deliberately

It never ceases to amaze me that some of you guys simply cannot fathom that RL made some poor decisions on the day and that it wasn't just the players missing goals... it's such a simplistic argument. If one of those goals had gone through obviously the game would have changed but we'd still have a team that would run out of steam