The night I finally lost the plot over those Milney comments

[Dave McNamara]

M10 and behind the goals at the Punt Rd end have been issues for ages...last yar the M10 hawks fans were deplorable..they congregate there cos its close to the bar..nuff said

Good on you for your steadfastness...keep us posted if you hear anything back. I know if the MW behaved like that the Club would rightfully jump on us quick smart

Well here's Hawthorn's resposne which has just come through-

Says it all really

Your message

To: Hawthorn
Subject: Hawthorn supporters Saturday May 5
Sent: Sunday, 6 May 2012 3:40:47 PM (UTC+10:00) Canberra, Melbourne, Sydney

was deleted without being read on Monday, 7 May 2012 5:37:53 PM (UTC+10:00) Canberra, Melbourne, Sydney.

If I did that in my jog, my employer would be less than happy.

Hi Trace, I reckon to try sending it again both by email and posted letter addressed to the Hawthorn Board (with copies to AD if you can't get a satisfactory response).

Maybe don't attack, but appeal to their sense of justice and doing the right thing? Just reiterate the unfairness and hurt this causes no only to Milney himself, but also to people in the situation of Mr & Mrs Seaford Saint. People such as Mr & Mrs SS are bravely getting on with their lives, and the last thing they need nor deserve is to be confronted by this sort of carry on at a public event. And the are not the only ones in such a situation...

Hawthorn are proud to call themselves the 'Family Club', and the AFL is continually trying to be more family friendly. Whilst Hawthorn FC has no direct control over these people, the Pres' could come out on behalf of the club and disown their behaviour - Eddy did this re similar actions by some of the Collingwood supporters.

HFC's (and the AFL's) support in this matter would be greatly appreciated by many many people who have in one way or another suffered due to sexual assault. Their (HFC &AFL's) leadership could be providing a positive and strong moral leadership in this area.

Anyway Trace, the above needs some tidying up, it's a rushed job at work, but something along those lines...? Hope it helps...

PS: Serendipitously I've just been speaking to a former Richmond player from the 1950's. Realy nice bloke and still connected with the club. I didn't name the clubs involved, except to say Richmond wasn't one. He agreed the email 'response' was poor. Advised ringing the club, letting them know you have a concern you'd like addressed, and what would be the best way to bring this matter to their attention? He added that all clubs are extremely concerend about their reputations 'in this day and age'.

[ozrulestrace]

M10 and behind the goals at the Punt Rd end have been issues for ages...last yar the M10 hawks fans were deplorable..they congregate there cos its close to the bar..nuff said

Good on you for your steadfastness...keep us posted if you hear anything back. I know if the MW behaved like that the Club would rightfully jump on us quick smart

Well here's Hawthorn's resposne which has just come through-

Says it all really

Your message

To: Hawthorn
Subject: Hawthorn supporters Saturday May 5
Sent: Sunday, 6 May 2012 3:40:47 PM (UTC+10:00) Canberra, Melbourne, Sydney

was deleted without being read on Monday, 7 May 2012 5:37:53 PM (UTC+10:00) Canberra, Melbourne, Sydney.

If I did that in my jog, my employer would be less than happy.

Hi Trace, I reckon to try sending it again both by email and posted letter addressed to the Hawthorn Board (with copies to AD if you can't get a satisfactory response).

Maybe don't attack, but appeal to their sense of justice and doing the right thing? Just reiterate the unfairness and hurt this causes no only to Milney himself, but also to people in the situation of Mr & Mrs Seaford Saint. People such as Mr & Mrs SS are bravely getting on with their lives, and the last thing they need nor deserve is to be confronted by this sort of carry on at a public event. And the are not the only ones in such a situation...

Hawthorn are proud to call themselves the 'Family Club', and the AFL is continually trying to be more family friendly. Whilst Hawthorn FC has no direct control over these people, the Pres' could come out on behalf of the club and disown their behaviour - Eddy did this re similar actions by some of the Collingwood supporters.

HFC's (and the AFL's) support in this matter would be greatly appreciated by many many people who have in one way or another suffered due to sexual assault. Their (HFC &AFL's) leadership could be providing a positive and strong moral leadership in this area.

Anyway Trace, the above needs some tidying up, it's a rushed job at work, but something along those lines...? Hope it helps...

PS: Serendipitously I've just been speaking to a former Richmond player from the 1950's. Realy nice bloke and still connected with the club. I didn't name the clubs involved, except to say Richmond wasn't one. He agreed the email 'response' was poor. Advised ringing the club, letting them know you have a concern you'd like addressed, and what would be the best way to bring this matter to their attention? He added that all clubs are extremely concerend about their reputations 'in this day and age'.

Thanks Dave McNamara and the others who have followed up with suggestions.
I agree my email contained more than a little anger when I sent it on Sunday, but Hawthorn still has an obligation to respond even if it's a "blah blah" letter.
So I think snail mail to Sue Clark at the AFL (she deals with the women's policies) a la the "Respect and Responsibility" policy, but looks like the Hawthorn Ceo needs to get a copy as well.
It's becoming clear, the clubs poo themselves if there is even a sniff of misconduct involving a player because of the negative publicity.
But to the supporters it's like "not my problem" and then continue to market themselves as "family friendly".
We're going to have to be patient whilst I write my letters and actually venture out to a post officer

[spert]

Send your letter and the response from Hawthorn to Current Affair, as they are always on the lookout for sensational stories, and this would be right up their alley and would at least put a deserved negative focus on the Hawthorn club...

[No1_Saint]

At the end of the Bulldogs game a group of immature prepubescent pups were abusing some young Saints girls by saying the club was a bunch of rapists and rudely gesturing to their crotches.

My cousin was at a game against Sydney last year where an opposition supporter was whispering into her mobile that the rapist had the ball. It's just sooooo wrong.

As has been said it's been getting worse. The problem is that there is no clear story on what happened. And it's in this horrible grey area that horrible people have been free to talk smack. Now this entire issue brushes us all with the same dirty cloth of inuendo and ignorance.

I don't know how the AFL can deal with this, but something has to be done.

[Life Long Saint]

Send your letter and the response from Hawthorn to Current Affair, as they are always on the lookout for sensational stories, and this would be right up their alley and would at least put a deserved negative focus on the Hawthorn club...

Wouldn't hurt that the host is a mad St Kilda supporter too!

[saintspremiers]

Supporters from most clubs hate Milne and think he is a rapist.

Let's face it, we are all biased and stick up for the little fella who is a champion player whom we all love.

BUT there have been serious allegations that the process with regards to his non-committal/non-charging may have not been 100% kosher.

I can fully understand other club's supporters taking their viewpoint, and I am not for one minute saying I think Milne has done anything wrong.

That's not to say what they are doing is right, but it is not completely baseless either.

I reckon this is the reason the AFL haven't made a stance on the issue.

[Eastern]

Supporters from most clubs hate Milne and think he is a rapist.

Let's face it, we are all biased and stick up for the little fella who is a champion player whom we all love.

BUT there have been serious allegations that the process with regards to his non-committal/non-charging may have not been 100% kosher.

I can fully understand other club's supporters taking their viewpoint, and I am not for one minute saying I think Milne has done anything wrong.

That's not to say what they are doing is right, but it is not completely baseless either.

I reckon this is the reason the AFL haven't made a stance on the issue.

WHAT HAPENED TO "INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY"?. The process you speak of is about police paperwork, NOT whether or not a crime was committed. Don't just take the Herald-Sun version of events. !!

[Thinline]

Supporters from most clubs hate Milne and think he is a rapist.

Let's face it, we are all biased and stick up for the little fella who is a champion player whom we all love.

BUT there have been serious allegations that the process with regards to his non-committal/non-charging may have not been 100% kosher.

I can fully understand other club's supporters taking their viewpoint, and I am not for one minute saying I think Milne has done anything wrong.

That's not to say what they are doing is right, but it is not completely baseless either.

I reckon this is the reason the AFL haven't made a stance on the issue.

There is no excuse. Understanding in any form simply justifies things.

The rights and wrongs of how the police catalogue their evidence has NOTHING to do with the allegations which, clearly, were no more than that. The muddy water of what went on that fateful night is nothing more than muddy water. That is all. From his point of view and from hers. That's why things stopped cold legally. Whilst that might upset some grubs who just love a public lynching - seriously what kind of dick actually WANTS someone to be a rapist?? - the fact is the fact. No case to answer. In the circs not even close. Yet we are constantly fed Milne looking guilty under his hoodie without any analysis nor mention of the motivations of his accuser as truthful, concise, precise or whatever else. NONE. Sometimes people - young or old - behave regrettably. No more, no less.

The 'treatment' of Milne is no different to the vilification of Franklin or Raph Clarke on racial grounds or certain other players on sexuality grounds.

ALL are abhorrent behaviours practiced by the worst kind of deadbeat fuckwits whose cowardly institutions are too afraid to take an appropriate stand.

All it would take is one opposition club to show some balls and castigate their own for behaving disgracefully and the whole thing would probably stop.

Herein what made McGuire/Malthouse's behaviour so poor. The latter still hasn't apologised. What hope do we have when ringleaders are so immovable?

Meanwhile Milne answers his kids' questions as best he can....

It's frankly and shamefully horrible.

[saintspremiers]

Supporters from most clubs hate Milne and think he is a rapist.

Let's face it, we are all biased and stick up for the little fella who is a champion player whom we all love.

BUT there have been serious allegations that the process with regards to his non-committal/non-charging may have not been 100% kosher.

I can fully understand other club's supporters taking their viewpoint, and I am not for one minute saying I think Milne has done anything wrong.

That's not to say what they are doing is right, but it is not completely baseless either.

I reckon this is the reason the AFL haven't made a stance on the issue.

WHAT HAPENED TO "INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY"?. The process you speak of is about police paperwork, NOT whether or not a crime was committed. Don't just take the Herald-Sun version of events. !!

Sorry I wasn't referring to the latest saga. Moreso allegations (without proof of course) of our club/people conndcted with our club perverting the course of justice. This was from years ago. Naturally opposition supporters turn into the lynch brigade and will all turn into one big Herald-Sun type menatility!

[Sobraz]

There is no excuse. Understanding in any form simply justifies things.

The rights and wrongs of how the police catalogue their evidence has NOTHING to do with the allegations which, clearly, were no more than that. The muddy water of what went on that fateful night is nothing more than muddy water. That is all. From his point of view and from hers. That's why things stopped cold legally. Whilst that might upset some grubs who just love a public lynching - seriously what kind of dick actually WANTS someone to be a rapist?? - the fact is the fact. No case to answer. In the circs not even close. Yet we are constantly fed Milne looking guilty under his hoodie without any analysis nor mention of the motivations of his accuser as truthful, concise, precise or whatever else. NONE. Sometimes people - young or old - behave regrettably. No more, no less.

The 'treatment' of Milne is no different to the vilification of Franklin or Raph Clarke on racial grounds or certain other players on sexuality grounds.

ALL are abhorrent behaviours practiced by the worst kind of deadbeat fuckwits whose cowardly institutions are too afraid to take an appropriate stand.

All it would take is one opposition club to show some balls and castigate their own for behaving disgracefully and the whole thing would probably stop.

Herein what made McGuire/Malthouse's behaviour so poor. The latter still hasn't apologised. What hope do we have when ringleaders are so immovable?

Meanwhile Milne answers his kids' questions as best he can....

It's frankly and shamefully horrible.

Wonderful post Thinline... Hope you dont mind if I refer to your post and rationale when debating the situation with my friends/family...

[ozrulestrace]

Well I've sent my letters off to Stuart Fox, Hawthorn CEO now raising two issues, one the initial complaint and the other Hawthorn's inability to provide any kind of response to my email. I did concede my intial email was angry in tone, but I stuck by our decision not to move and standing to face those bullies and Hawhtorn has to deal with these supporters as they represent their team as much as the players do.
The other letter has gone to Sue Clark, AFL Cultural Strategy and Education Manager, pointing out the distress from the whole episode and if the AFL follows its "Respect & Responsibility" Policy dated 2005 (now there's an irony as was created to deal with particular incident in the first place) stating their policy includes administrators so they have responsibilities in dealing with this kind of matter as well.
I'm cynical enough to think I'll get nil response from either party,
I'll let you if I get a response.

[Mrs_Seaford_Saint]

Well I've sent my letters off to Stuart Fox, Hawthorn CEO now raising two issues, one the initial complaint and the other Hawthorn's inability to provide any kind of response to my email. I did concede my intial email was angry in tone, but I stuck by our decision not to move and standing to face those bullies and Hawhtorn has to deal with these supporters as they represent their team as much as the players do.
The other letter has gone to Sue Clark, AFL Cultural Strategy and Education Manager, pointing out the distress from the whole episode and if the AFL follows its "Respect & Responsibility" Policy dated 2005 (now there's an irony as was created to deal with particular incident in the first place) stating their policy includes administrators so they have responsibilities in dealing with this kind of matter as well.
I'm cynical enough to think I'll get nil response from either party,
I'll let you if I get a response.

Well done for sticking with your guns - I sent off some emails with no response - I guess if I pretended I was 16 ( real age 31) and made up a story about dating a footballer who used me and then broke up with me it would be a little more juicy to run with then fact.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

I think you got the wrong I'm pression of me I agree it is Definatly Wrong and Milne unfairly cops it the point I'm making is the people doing it know it irks the saints supporters to no end and in turn do it more for that kind of reaction ... The reason the clubs won't look into it is because atwhat point do they deem what is acceptable ? I've seen our supporter give it to WCE players about drugs , I've seen supporters give it to Crawford for being gay ( even though he isn't ) taunting players and inturn supporters is as old as the hills it's a sad fact that til Milne retires we will cop it

true to a point, but there is a line.

BTW, but with due respect I think your response to that wonderful letter by ozrulestrace and your attitude is an absolute cop out. Imagine if Nicky Winmar had your attitude...the world will only change when good people stand up and do the right thing

Again I think Hawthorns reply is exactly what I said it would be .. I understand the story behind the original email but as I said the way it was worded and the emotion in it was always going to be the reason it got ignored ... Not discounting your complaint or saying it's not a worthy complaint but can you imagine the emails a football club gets on a daily basis no club will filter through the nutters the loopies the inane ramblings of people like Barks that they get every day to find your email .. End of the day you have a valid complaint but went through the wrong channels

[samuraisaint]

I’ve thought long and hard about posting the following as it may lead to people misconstruing my words and forming incorrect opinions about me. It may even lead to people uttering the other despised “R” word.

However it’s something I’ve believed for a long time.

When you consider Milne has been putting up with this stuff since 2004 and it’s actually getting worse.

When you consider the disgraceful Malthouse incident which took it to a new level.

And when you consider how abhorrent the abuse is, especially in a sport promoting itself to families.

When you consider all that I am absolutely stunned that the AFL has not stepped in.

And it is my view that if Milne was an indigenous player then they would have indeed stepped in a fair while ago.

I’m not knocking what the AFL does for the indigenous players, far from it.

However I think Milne is being left to his own devices on this because he is a little pasty white bloke from the outer suburbs of Melbourne. And that’s simply not good enough, especially when you consider the effects on his family and on parents attending games with their kids.

I may well be wrong. However I can’t imagine an indigenous player and his family having to put up with 8 years of this rubbish without the AFL displaying its paternal side.

It’s about time they stood up and did something for Stephen.

This is dead right...

Imagine if Lovett had been picked up by an AFL club and was subjected to this abuse...

I mean Andrew Krakouer made headlines last season when someone abused him about the incident that sent him to prison. Yet Milne has been subjected to these taunts since 2004 with no negative press from anyone.

Maybe we need our high profile president to have a go at someone in the crowd over some comments. That'll happen...Right?

Krakouer is indigenous so anti-racism occurs. He is now a sexy story whereby we have to seemingly give him a second chance despite being a piece of s***. Also he probably is deemed a good role model despite nearly killing someone.

If he was white he would have been chastised and it would have continued. Compared to being indigenous and now he is almost off-limits (See Eddie going nuts last year).

If indigenous boys look at him as a role model well an entire group of people are stuffed. A bloke that did what he did deserves no credit for apparently turning his life around blah blah blah. He has been to jail for a prolonged period of time and if that counts as a role model well I am from Mars.

While I don't see Krakouer as a role model, I don't see him as a piece of s*** either. I see him as one of a small group of aborigine kids kicking the footy outside the Saints clubrooms at Moorabbin in 1990 waiting for his Dad to come out and play. Sorry, can't hate the bloke. He did the wrong thing, sure. But that was a bit of a special case. It was a blue between the two families wasn't it?
And let's be honest, Jimmy probably isn't the greatest role model to have as a father.

[Dave McNamara]

...Again I think Hawthorns reply is exactly what I said it would be .. I understand the story behind the original email but as I said the way it was worded and the emotion in it was always going to be the reason it got ignored ... Not discounting your complaint or saying it's not a worthy complaint but can you imagine the emails a football club gets on a daily basis no club will filter through the nutters the loopies the inane ramblings of people like Barks that they get every day to find your email .. End of the day you have a valid complaint but went through the wrong channels

Hi Trav, the wording and the emotion never got a chance to come into it... The Family Club didn't even open Trace's heart-felt email in the first place. (See below.)

Re volumes of emails (and snail mail) received by a club, I have no idea of how much(?) But wouldn't a club surely have someone to check all likely communications coming in? I would have thought the answer'd be YES? Does anyone know???

Well here's Hawthorn's resposne which has just come through-

Says it all really

Your message

To: Hawthorn
Subject: Hawthorn supporters Saturday May 5
Sent: Sunday, 6 May 2012 3:40:47 PM (UTC+10:00) Canberra, Melbourne, Sydney

was deleted without being read on Monday, 7 May 2012 5:37:53 PM (UTC+10:00) Canberra, Melbourne, Sydney.

I think you got the wrong impression of me...

For me, not a case of getting anything wrong; see you as being very sympathetic towards Mr & Mrs SS and Trace... just being pragmatic re the behaviour of those Dawks and the chances of them being called to account... we hope pragmatism doesn't win out...

[st_Trav_ofWA]

It was deleted without being read because the clubs don't have the time or the want to read these kind of things .. Honestly there are ugly fans at every club (even ours) someone made mention of the stand Nicky made and how it changed footy and in part it did the media pushed it and the abuse was cut dramatically but to this day you can still hear racist comments from footy fans ( including ours) the problem will never end because people some times are not decent ... It's not a blight on Hawthorn or collingwood it's a blight on society

[To the top]

Have browsed he tone of these comments and agree that Hawthorn seem to have a lot of "Yuppie" (?) type supporters, and when you look around to see from what mouths the drivel is coming what you see is "supporters" who, from their physical appearance, get their only physical exursion from masturbating - and probably can not count to 99 to change hands.

They have most obviously never presented on a sporting field.

And the comment about them going to the bar at every opportunity and returning with beers is quite correct - and annoying as they push past blocking your view of the game.

As I have said somewhere else, the club is typical of the certified, egotist advertising person who heads it.

[stinger]

I agree my email contained more than a little anger when I sent it on Sunday, but Hawthorn still has an obligation to respond even if it's a "blah blah" letter.

why do you say that....? their obligations are to their club and their supporters.....we can get stuffed as far as the hawks football club is concerned....

[ozrulestrace]

Well there is one shining light, and strangely enough it is from the St Kilda Football Club Membership Support Services, who had taken a phone call from one of the other ladies about us moving seats. She said all the right things, and has agreed to us shifting for the Melbourne game and suggested taking the matter up with the MCG.
As for Hawthorn I did concede in my letter the email had an angry tone, but I stuck by my guns that no-one has to put up with the mob, and as a matter of courtesy they should respond.
And if they think that was an abusive in tone, they should join me at my day job.
Every day I get to read emails full of vitriol and I'm sure some scribes practice the art of trying to include every four letter word known to humankind in their correspondence.
So my email may have been angry but not, and I repeat not, abusive.
Therefore I am entitled to a reply.

But let's get back to the original issue that created the distress for a few of us.

I want to congratulate Mrs Seaford Saints for sending off emails as well.

[ozrulestrace]

Have browsed he tone of these comments and agree that Hawthorn seem to have a lot of "Yuppie" (?) type supporters, and when you look around to see from what mouths the drivel is coming what you see is "supporters" who, from their physical appearance, get their only physical exursion from masturbating - and probably can not count to 99 to change hands.

They have most obviously never presented on a sporting field.

And the comment about them going to the bar at every opportunity and returning with beers is quite correct - and annoying as they push past blocking your view of the game.

As I have said somewhere else, the club is typical of the certified, egotist advertising person who heads it.

I think you'll find one of the few comments I did make about these people over my shoulder was "well can tell these people from are not from Lisson Grove Hawthorn, or Lisson Grove anywhere. Not the chardonnay set, but the cardchard set"
Still not abusive and I don't want to portray myself as a snob but these people were not "Yuppie"

[samuraisaint]

Hawthorn supporters are just as likely to come from Deer Park or Melton as they are from Hawthorn or Mt Eliza.

[gringo]

There are a few issues here, one is that rapist is the term used to define a range of sexual assaults from a guy who stalks and hunts victims to a range of consent issues including alcohol and mistaken identity. Most people have forgotten the circumstances and unfortunately for Milne and Montagna they will always carry a stigma and because there is some question as to their innocence it makes it worse.

Secondly Doc the fact that you say if he was Aboriginal he would get special treatment is a bit low for you. Lovett hardly got great treatment from the AFL. They were happy to get him out and keep him out. Jurrah is not from the same world as most aboriginals in the AFL and is a different issue.

The AFL will never want to be seen to support anyone involved in sexual assaults because it is damaging to an image they have fought hard to create.

Claiming that Aboriginals get a better deal in society would be fairly insulting to most. If you turn up to rent a house and your Aboriginal you watch the real estate agent close the book. Even if you are employed and of good character people see the skin first. It's pretty ignorant to say they get a better deal.

[Dr Spaceman]

Secondly Doc the fact that you say if he was Aboriginal he would get special treatment is a bit low for you.

Never said that gringo and I'm shocked and hurt you've taken it that way. I tried very hard to explain myself.

The indigenous players don't get special treatment - they get the correct treatment. Milne on the other hand has been ignored and left to fend for himself.

And Lovett never played again, so there was little chance for the AFL to do, or not do, anything. But do you really think that if he had never been charged, and had've played on for another 8 years, and if he and his family had've copped the abuse directed at Milne, that the AFL would have remained silent?

Once again, I'm not criticising what the AFL does for the indigenous players. It's terrific. I just wish they'd use their influence and power to shut this stuff up. It's not good for the player, it's not good for his family, it's not good for his club and it's not good for the spectators.

[gringo]

Secondly Doc the fact that you say if he was Aboriginal he would get special treatment is a bit low for you.

Never said that gringo and I'm shocked and hurt you've taken it that way. I tried very hard to explain myself.

The indigenous players don't get special treatment - they get the correct treatment. Milne on the other hand has been ignored and left to fend for himself.

And Lovett never played again, so there was little chance for the AFL to do, or not do, anything. But do you really think that if he had never been charged, and had've played on for another 8 years, and if he and his family had've copped the abuse directed at Milne, that the AFL would have remained silent?

Once again, I'm not criticising what the AFL does for the indigenous players. It's terrific. I just wish they'd use their influence and power to shut this stuff up. It's not good for the player, it's not good for his family, it's not good for his club and it's not good for the spectators.

I have a cousin who is part aboriginal and a little sensitive. I just don't know what they can do. Other than sanction Malthouse strongly which they failed on they are powerless. Sexual assault isn't something they want to know about. Lovett was sacked and they could have pressured the Saints to keep him until the justice system had dealt with it. They are all touchy feely with special issues until it gets difficult then they run for the damage control curtain.

[St Ick]

Must say I was particularly shocked by the Hawks fans...

From the minute long berating of 'sooky lala' Roo when Rhys missed that mark running into goal, yep, he was resting on the bench and still copped it from a fool who doesnt even know who he was...to the constant Milne abuse. I have had a gutful of the Milne slander from pretty much every other clubs supporter. I really dont know how he copes as I struggle with the association. Innocent until proven guilty is a joke. Milney is not only one of the best ever small fwds in history he also is great at the clinics and camps that we do. Its such a shame that that r word will always stay with him regardless of when happened or he does in his life/career.