What's the point?

[Moods]

One game into the season and ppl are questioning the point of trying to win games.

Maybe, just maybe the young blokes will come along a lot quicker if we are trying to win at all costs. Maybe if they work to get a game rather than be gifted games, they will realise the value of hard work and will be truly valuable to our club. Your post may well be relevent in Rd 11 Teflon, but every year ALL teams should strive to make the finals and win as many games as possible. If that means that Peake, Polo etc etc are no longer good enough, then fair enough. If they are, they get a game as far as I'm concerned.

[dcstkfc]

Look we cant win the flag but really even if we just won yesterday it wouldnt have changed that. The window shut at the end of 2010 when the players mentally just couldnt go on.Easy in hindsight to see that but I think it is pretty obvious to me.

The question is how do you handle it. We could just play young guys and would probably win 6 to 8 games or we could blood them gradually having 4 to 5 in the side at once and maybe win 10-12 games. I would go with the second option. The young guys who deserve a game get one instead of just giving them away and the better young players will get plenty of experience anyway and more likely in a competitive or winning culture. The other way will get games into guys that mightnt be good enough anyway and we will have some very bad loses which may not help the young players.

Nice stuff plugg

[asiu]

nicely worded .... i'm more than ofay with this

...

Ok let's not tank..... Let's... Develop like mad in coincidentally the same year as a super draft is said to be upon us...

obviously we trade out eveyone we can , as well.

like .... see ya nick , bj * and whoever else has currency.


* go for the clubs sake.

[Dr Spaceman]

“Tank tank and tank tank tank ...”

[ThePunter]

Losing becomes a hard habit to break. We may see this with the Gold Coast this year, and with GWS in the future.

Also, I think some supporters would like to see us "play for the future" because it is a defence mechanism. We don't want to see our team bust their backsides and still lose, we'd rather have the built in excuse that "we're rebuilding/playing for draft picks".

I wasn't that disappointed after Sunday, for a number of reasons:

1. I wasn't expecting that much
2. AAMI Stadium remains an unhappy hunting ground for St Kilda
3. We lost to Port Adelaide at AAMI Stadium in 2010 and drew the Grand Final

[kosifantutti]

I may be old fashioned, but I still believe in going out to win every game. I know it doesn't always turn out that way! The average age of the side has come down from recent seasons with the inclusion of the newer boys, and I'm patient enough not to expect too much from them in a short time. Now is the time for cool heads and strong nerve. One loss (in round one) at a ground where we traditionally struggle hasn't got me ready to call for us tanking for picks! 2000-2003 were seasons I'm not in too much of a hurry to go through again!

TOTALLY agree with your first sentence TJS.

But it's worth noting in terms of age that the round 1 team from this year is older than the round 1 team from last year so I don't know where this younger team that everyone talks about is.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

No point in tanking.

You get a far greater number of top draft picks now by trading players or 'letting them go' to GWS.

This (your latter point) is exactly what I wanted us to do after the 2010 GF loss to Collingwood. The first part of what plugger66 said is exactly what I said immediately after that 2010 loss, to those I was talking to on the train ride home and then on here that night. It was very clear to me that day that that group was mentally/emotionally/spiritually cooked and that there was little chance or likelihood of them getting off that canvas and genuinely contending again and I felt our best move was to act immediately and try to trade one or two from our list that still had "currency", for 2 or 3 high draft picks, in that good 2010 draft.

Gold Coast had a swag of top 15 picks in that draft (including the first 3) and I thought we had to try and get our hands on a couple of them (plus maybe one more relatively high pick), to give us a chance of contending again before the likes of Goddard, Dal, Fisher, Gilbert, Gwilt, Joey and so on retired. As I said here that night, I would have even strongly considered trading Roo, because, as great as he's been for us, it was also clear to me that night that he was never going to be mentally strong enough to lead us to a premiership and that by the next time we were in serious flag contention, he would probably be retired, so I felt that, purely list-wise, he was our biggest "asset", that Gold Coast may have been prepared to trade us a couple of high picks for. Only the emotional/loyalty side of things would have stopped me from trading him, if I'd been in charge then and if GC had offered us two appropriate picks for him (especially one that would have gotten us Sam Day, who could be another "Nick Riewoldt", at CHF).

Nothing that I've seen since then has really caused me to change that opinion at all, on either the group as a whole, or Nick (who has gone a lot worse than even I was expecting him to), even though I hoped I was wrong and that they they would find a way to get their spark and spirit back. And again on Sunday, that was clearly missing again. This group are just mentally/emotionally/spiritually shot, still. I was hoping that Scott and others coming on board, plus the introduction of some good young talent, would spark them back to life, but it doesn't appear to have (yet). I still believe they can find that spark and belief and desire to climb that mountain again, and that we could still contend again this year, but something pretty significant needs to happen very quickly for that to happen.

As I said on another thread after the miserable game on Sunday, I think Watters maybe needs to do a bit less of the touchy feely stuff (that I believe has a place at the right times) and get a bit aggro at some of the lacklustre performances we're dishing up at the moment (including the pre-season games, which were apparently well below what he was expecting). I believe this group have it in them somewhere to get that spark and hunger back, but it might take something pretty dramatic for that to happen (maybe like when Dal and Milne were sent back to the VFL a few years back).

I thought that Watters was on the right track with the implications that we'd be playing plenty of "youth", but it's fair to say I was disappointed to see Ray and Polo in the side at the weekend, especially at the expense of Siposs, who I felt had clearly done enough to warrant a spot in the 22, if not the 18. I don't believe we should be "gifting" any of the younger ones games, but I would be playing pretty much all the ones that could be better by the end of the year than the likes of Polo and Ray are likely to be. (ie Siposs, Ledger, Cripps, Stanley, Simpkin, Milera) and putting a big rocket up the senior brigade to LIFT and play like they really desperately want it.

[Old Mate]

At a guess we will make a play for draft picks in this years draft and trade period. It's the right year to do it. I'm not saying that we'll look at offloading players such as Dal Santo and Goddard - I reckon we'll do the same as last year and attempt to load up on pick's in the 30's and 40's and back our judgement and youth academy.

[plugger66]

At a guess we will make a play for draft picks in this years draft and trade period. It's the right year to do it. I'm not saying that we'll look at offloading players such as Dal Santo and Goddard - I reckon we'll do the same as last year and attempt to load up on pick's in the 30's and 40's and back our judgement and youth academy.

Those picks will not replace our stars though. It will a very long process and 2 or 3 years at the bottom of the ladder.

[To the top]

We have a disconnect across our player list with the result that we are reliant on the performances of our elite players to be competative (and if they all have very good seasons we will be competative) and to provide the structure to introduce players with little AFL experience to date.

These elite players are professional footballers, and they go out to contribute to a winning side each and every week.

That is what they are paid for.

There is a concern with our lack of potential KPP players, noting the age of Riewoldt, Koschitzke and Fisher.

To me, a couple of things became obvious from my weekend of football, football and more football in Adelaide, going with my hosts (a former Port Adelaide SANFL player of some repute) to watch Sturt play Port Adelaide where Cahill kicked 3 including 2 clutch goals in the last quarter to give Sturt a 4 point win, watching the Legs knock of Centrals at Elizabeth for the first time in 9 years and then going to West Lakes on Sunday.

Firstly, there are players in the SANFL who can replicate the likes of Duigan and Puopolo and be instant contributing players in the AFL.

Milera, who my mate does not rate on SANFL form last year because he is an outside player and does not take his turn (a Port Adelaide absolute requirement!), is another case in point.

Secondly, it is time to give our younger brigade opportunity in the same side as our elite players and to move past the likes of Blake, Geary, Polo, Peake, Jones and Milne.

The players named do not bring the intensity, the pace, the skills, the going when it is their turn and the disposal skills which are all non negotiable requirements in the current game - even at SANFL standard (which should not be discounted).

Ray I excuse, because judging him off being a substitute is not fair - he is not suited to such an impact role (witness Rodan).

I would look to give Armitage time in the guts, under the ruckmen, because that is his style.

We will regain Clarke, Gram and Gwilt which will assist. They are all AFL quality players.

And that leaves scope for 3/4 who are showing the attributes at VFL level to transition into this side.

What we really need is for our elite players to be given support - and to give support because they are the leaders of the club.

Starting with the Captain.

[plugger66]

Just had to get Milne in again but you excuse Ray. Of course the AA one game a go was aberration.

[Teflon]

I don't think I used the term tank. In fact I'm sure I didn't. This thread has had the 'tank mafia' out at all costs!! We've had Punter suggest its a psychological supporter attempt at handling fear of failure..... fascinating stuff that!!

Reality is we need to go forward with youth who can improve our skills so we bridge the gap to the better sides. We are no longer the 'better side' the question is: How?

I see only 1 way - take some short term pain and play kids (of course only those demanding a game) If fit, I thought Ledger had done enough to demand a game on weekend. Secondly, find the decent, mid 20's players from wherever to bolster our gaping list hole to support ageing stars and kids. Thirdly, go hard in this draft for highest pick we can and don't be afraid to offload a name to do it.

Tough times call for it, head in the sand 'we might win flag' this year hurts us later.

There ya go... Not 1 tank mention!!

[Old Mate]

One thing SainterK mentioned which I agree with....Watters coached and selected a very safe team...because he was scared of failure and wanted to get his first win under his belt....typical for a coach in his first game (obviously). The PA loss could be what Watters and the team needed. Heres hoping.

(What I mean by this is Watters will now pick players on form and not experience. Ledger has clearly been better than Ray on preseason form).

[prwilkinson]

Interesting game on Sunday... Shame we started so slowly really... Could have quite easily come away with the points had a few more players cracked in and really contributed.... I think that's what Scott was alluding too in his press conference. Just a few too many passengers. When you look at the break down of stats it says a lot... smashed in contested footy, clearances, lost the inside 50's by 8. 11 extra free kicks Port Adelaide's way.... I know free kicks aren't meant to be even but still... annoying. And yet... Only lost by 4 points. Had we got just a bit more effort from a few players we'd have got over the line easily. Joey's stats are pretty ordinary for a senior player... Expect him to be close to best on ground this weekend. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water just yet.

[Austinnn]

Well thank heavens our coach doesn't agree. Prior to the first game, he stated (I'm paraphrasing) "You will never hear me talking about a rebuild this year".

Hopefully, he has a bit more backbone than some on this forum and won't go back on his word. He has already stated that this is the last chance saloon for a few players and some have already spurned their first, perhaps only opportunity. He's not going to be patient with the older guys I'd imagine so it may be that what you suggest ends up happening anyway. But don't expect to see Dunnell in for Armo or Peake any time soon. That is pure knee jerk, whereas real management needs a cool head and an ability to assess continuously, not just at the start.

ONE GAME. That's all its taken for some of you to throw in the towel. In the 15 or so years I've followed St Kilda, that's the most pathetic show of support I've seen, even in the early aughts. If you need an excuse to jump off, just do it now and save yourself the stress.

We will be better. Much better. The whole team was taking its first steps last Sunday. Getting to grips with the new plays, the new style. Ledger will come in. Gwilt will come back. Saad and Simpkin may come in. Lenny's confidence will increase with each solid hit out. McEvoy and Cripps will settle. The captain will not go out like this. This isn't blind faith or pure optimism, just sense. You know he won't. What it takes to become what he has, you don't just lose that one day. Not talking about foot skill, but his determination and pride. You honestly think he's done?

Foot skills and decision-making across the board will be analysed and tweaked when possible, and players with these will be favoured. Watters is no fool, hasn't been here long enough to be loyal to under-performing players. His is a mandate to win, to finish off what Thomas started, what Lyon nearly achieved. But any new coach's mandate is one of change, and he will react, not by panicking, but by doing what we have trusted him to do.

The measure of a man is not how he goes down but what he does when he gets up. Same for a club.

You get to Etihad on Sunday and you cheer and carry-on like you believe we'll thrash the bejesus out of the Suns and you celebrate when we do. You get your head together and show determination to beat setbacks and jump obstacles. Our club needs you too.

[prwilkinson]

Well thank heavens our coach doesn't agree. Prior to the first game, he stated (I'm paraphrasing) "You will never hear me talking about a rebuild this year".

Hopefully, he has a bit more backbone than some on this forum and won't go back on his word. He has already stated that this is the last chance saloon for a few players and some have already spurned their first, perhaps only opportunity. He's not going to be patient with the older guys I'd imagine so it may be that what you suggest ends up happening anyway. But don't expect to see Dunnell in for Armo or Peake any time soon. That is pure knee jerk, whereas real management needs a cool head and an ability to assess continuously, not just at the start.

ONE GAME. That's all its taken for some of you to throw in the towel. In the 15 or so years I've followed St Kilda, that's the most pathetic show of support I've seen, even in the early aughts. If you need an excuse to jump off, just do it now and save yourself the stress.

We will be better. Much better. Ledger will come in. The captain will not go out like this. This isn't blind faith or pure optimism, just sense. You know he won't. What it takes to become what he has, you don't just lose that one day.

Foot skills and decision-making across the board will be analysed and teamed when possible, and players with these will be favoured. Watters is no fool, hasn't been here long enough to be loyal to under-performing players. His is a mandate to win, to finish off what Thomas started, what Lyon nearly achieved. But any new coach's mandate is one of change, and he will react, not by panicking, but by doing what we have trusted him to do.

The measure of a man is not how he goes down but what he does when he gets up. Same for a club.

You get to Etihad on Sunday and you cheer and carry-on like you believe we'll thrash the bejesus out of the Suns and you celebrate when we do. You get your head together and show determination to beat setbacks and jump obstacles. Our club needs you too.

Good Stuff. Like the attitude.

[gringo]

No point in tanking.

You get a far greater number of top draft picks now by trading players or 'letting them go' to GWS.

We are better off making sure we have 4-5 young kids in the side every week, maybe even scraping into the finals, but giving us options to trade at the end of the year. We trade a big name and it will give us 2-3 picks inside the top 20 (potentially), which is better than 1 very high pick and then nothing else.

Agreed.

Especially now the priority pick has gone, there are now 18 clubs to get picks as opposed to 16, and there are loads of these 'extra' picks knocking around.

Anyhow, even if you look at the 2001 Superdraft the A grade talent pool was spread right through the draft....

1. Luke Hodge
2. Luke Ball
3. Chris Judd
8. Jimmy Bartel
13. NDS
17. James Kelly
24. Steve Johnson
33. David Rodan
36. Sam Mitchell
37. Leigh Montagna
40. Gary Ablett*
58. Dane Swan
60. Adam Schneider

Swan and Schnieder look incredible value that late.

[SainterK]

One thing SainterK mentioned which I agree with....Watters coached and selected a very safe team...because he was scared of failure and wanted to get his first win under his belt....typical for a coach in his first game (obviously). The PA loss could be what Watters and the team needed. Heres hoping.

(What I mean by this is Watters will now pick players on form and not experience. Ledger has clearly been better than Ray on preseason form).

Did I say that?

I must of forgotten what I said and haven't said.

I think Watters is working his way through the list, making his own opinions.

[hungry for a premiership]

Jonathon Brown - drafted with pick no. 30

Simon Black - pick no. 31

Sam Mitchell - pick 36

Cameron Ling - 38

Gary Ablett (Jnr) - 40

Adam Goodes - 43

Mathew Scarlett - 45

Cameron Bruce - 64

Brian Lake - 71

James Hird - 79

Doug Hawkins - 84

David Rodan - 86

Chris Grant - 105



The draft is not an exact science whatsoever. Just because you get the first pick, doesn't mean you'll get the best player, and just because you have low picks, doesn't mean you wont get any quality players.

Look at Melbourne, a team loaded up with high draft picks, and it working for them?

No, because a winning culture and attitude outweigh flashy skills. "A team of champions doesn't make a champion team." The moment St.Kilda takes the attitude of "Let's not try to win to get higher draft picks," we are gaaaawwwwwnnn. We're far better off sneaking into the 8 and playing a final than finishing 12th-16th. The team must be trying to constantly improve, not go backwards.

[crippa2sipa]

Just had to get Milne in again but you excuse Ray. Of course the AA one game a go was aberration.

MIlne is the heart of soul of this club both in spirit and in ability. But only those with a heart and soul can recognize that.

[ralphsmith]

When we started the downward spiral in 1998 it was hard to escape from. You all remember the pain of 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002.....

The losing attitude becomes a dangerous infection throughout the club.

But on the other hand, if we had battled through those years to limp into the finals every year we probably wouldnt have been able to reload properly.

Anyway, this year has just started. I am not convinced enough that we are that bad.
Watters needs to seriously address the kicking skills issues. Schneider and Gwilt can kick very well, they are yet to return.

We need to absolutely destroy gold coast this weekend. Not one of these ross lyon esque doing enough, icing the clock, passing in the backline efforts. We need our guys switched on ready to steamroll this mcdonalds franchise of a football club.

Then with a bit of confidence, we go into round 3 with a kindling of belief....

[Enrico_Misso]

71 Brian Lake

And of course
49 Josh Houlihan

[supersaints]

Abysmal attitude, lose one game and give away the season. ( admittedly one we should have won) Hope the players and coaches have a bit more faith. Port have always been a bit of a bogy side for us. It's not the end of the world just the begining of the season

[stinger]

One game into the season and ppl are questioning the point of trying to win games.

Maybe, just maybe the young blokes will come along a lot quicker if we are trying to win at all costs. Maybe if they work to get a game rather than be gifted games, they will realise the value of hard work and will be truly valuable to our club. Your post may well be relevent in Rd 11 Teflon, but every year ALL teams should strive to make the finals and win as many games as possible. If that means that Peake, Polo etc etc are no longer good enough, then fair enough. If they are, they get a game as far as I'm concerned.

my view also....

[matrix]

welcome back stinger