Zac to the rescue

[Old Mate]

In 2009 the team was on a slow decline after we beat the cats. it was obvious that we were running out of puff and some players couldnt keep up their output. We were lucky to make the gf in the end. the cats managed their team better throughout the year and it showed witg them running games out and looking fresher.

[SaintPav]

In 2009 the team was on a slow decline after we beat the cats. it was obvious that we were running out of puff and some players couldnt keep up their output. We were lucky to make the gf in the end. the cats managed their team better throughout the year and it showed witg them running games out and looking fresher.

I don't know about that..we had the much harder prelim remember plus we coped injuries during the week and during the game. We definitley peaked a bit early though...

[dcstkfc]

Sorry Saint Pav and VS - didn't note ur responses til now.

Pav, got inside the bubble in my bedside draw - next book to go.

Are u guys actually saying that u were happy with the quality of the game that they played in 2010???

maybe we'll have to disagree but I just cna't fathom the logic. They had no positive impact!!! McQualter laid 5 tackles in the second half of the 2010 GF and we're ooo'hing and aah'ing about that.

If these guys were such great players how come they were just delisted like that???
Did their impact on games just suddenly drop off???

And Pav... mate why can't it be that he got that aspect of his coaching wrong? He got other things right but RL's value of Eddy/mini role was wrong. We lost two grandfinals and Mini/Eddy did bugger all in all of them

Armitage and Steven were both preferred at times to McQualter and Eddy but neither had the requisite fitness to play finals footy.

Everyone was talking Eddy up after he played a solid preliminary final anyway.

[The Redeemer]

In 2009 the team was on a slow decline after we beat the cats. it was obvious that we were running out of puff and some players couldnt keep up their output. We were lucky to make the gf in the end. the cats managed their team better throughout the year and it showed witg them running games out and looking fresher.

I don't know about that..we had the much harder prelim remember plus we coped injuries during the week and during the game. We definitley peaked a bit early though...

We had to see how much we could potentially improve though?

In a perfect world the first half of the season would be swapped with the second however we were coming off a year (2008) where yes we made a prelim but no we did not look like winning the flag. So through this we needed to play much better and we did.

[Scollop]

In the end it was pleasing.....no hang on....it was bullsh1t...What's the point of winning 19 in a row!!?? Ross was handed the blueprint and he failed. The fact that the team played in pre-lims before he arrived and the fact that we had such an awesome year in 2009, tells me that it was all wasted on the wrong coach. In the end, he isn't a great coach.

For me personally, the loss in GF 09 wiped out any good memories of matches attended in 09 and I'd give back all those wins in a row anyday, if we could have ended up with the premiership. We won well and we smashed teams and we kept winning until we had 13 in a row, 14 in a row, 15 in a row... At what point do you reckon it was time for the match committee and the senior coach to start thinking about the possibilty of a GF challenge?

Who is responsible in the club for taking a step back and saying; "OK, we have our best chance this year of winning a flag. Alright, let's plan for September right now. None of this bu11sh1t talk about taking it one week at a time. We don't need to be afraid of losing 3 or 4 out of the next 7. We don't need to focus on winning round 16. We have to plan to rest players who do not want a rest. We need our rucks and mids and our second tier players and of course our stars like Roo and Dal to be in tip top shape. We want the guys busrting out of their skin when finals come along and at the same time, we don't need to tell the footy public that this is in fact our strategy. Let them challenge each other and push themselves in the last few home and away matches. Let's plan for the team to be firing on all cylinders and manage and maintain our peak form deep into September."

The taxing nature of the game plan and the forward press had to take it's toll sooner or later. The fact that he made 8 or 9 changes was an admission that the old phurphy about 'not flirting with form' was dead. The era of defensive zones and running from end to end had changed the game and Ross's game plan was going to have a cost. Everything always come at a cost. Why did Ross wait until Round 19 to force some changes? Why didn't he have the cojones to make the changes in Round 16? Why didn't he roll the dice and go for the ultimate prize? In the end he wasn't good enough to lead the side to victory.

[SaintPav]

In the end it was pleasing.....no hang on....it was bullsh1t...What's the point of winning 19 in a row!!?? Ross was handed the blueprint and he failed. The fact that the team played in pre-lims before he arrived and the fact that we had such an awesome year in 2009, tells me that it was all wasted on the wrong coach. In the end, he isn't a great coach.

For me personally, the loss in GF 09 wiped out any good memories of matches attended in 09 and I'd give back all those wins in a row anyday, if we could have ended up with the premiership. We won well and we smashed teams and we kept winning until we had 13 in a row, 14 in a row, 15 in a row... At what point do you reckon it was time for the match committee and the senior coach to start thinking about the possibilty of a GF challenge?

Who is responsible in the club for taking a step back and saying; "OK, we have our best chance this year of winning a flag. Alright, let's plan for September right now. None of this bu11sh1t talk about taking it one week at a time. We don't need to be afraid of losing 3 or 4 out of the next 7. We don't need to focus on winning round 16. We have to plan to rest players who do not want a rest. We need our rucks and mids and our second tier players and of course our stars like Roo and Dal to be in tip top shape. We want the guys busrting out of their skin when finals come along and at the same time, we don't need to tell the footy public that this is in fact our strategy. Let them challenge each other and push themselves in the last few home and away matches. Let's plan for the team to be firing on all cylinders and manage and maintain our peak form deep into September."

The taxing nature of the game plan and the forward press had to take it's toll sooner or later. The fact that he made 8 or 9 changes was an admission that the old phurphy about 'not flirting with form' was dead. The era of defensive zones and running from end to end had changed the game and Ross's game plan was going to have a cost. Everything always come at a cost. Why did Ross wait until Round 19 to force some changes? Why didn't he have the cojones to make the changes in Round 16? Why didn't he roll the dice and go for the ultimate prize? In the end he wasn't good enough to lead the side to victory.

Yep, it's that easy isn't it...maybe you should just let go now.....it's 2012 now.

[SaintPav]

In the end it was pleasing.....no hang on....it was bullsh1t...What's the point of winning 19 in a row!!?? Ross was handed the blueprint and he failed. The fact that the team played in pre-lims before he arrived and the fact that we had such an awesome year in 2009, tells me that it was all wasted on the wrong coach. In the end, he isn't a great coach.

For me personally, the loss in GF 09 wiped out any good memories of matches attended in 09 and I'd give back all those wins in a row anyday, if we could have ended up with the premiership. We won well and we smashed teams and we kept winning until we had 13 in a row, 14 in a row, 15 in a row... At what point do you reckon it was time for the match committee and the senior coach to start thinking about the possibilty of a GF challenge?

Who is responsible in the club for taking a step back and saying; "OK, we have our best chance this year of winning a flag. Alright, let's plan for September right now. None of this bu11sh1t talk about taking it one week at a time. We don't need to be afraid of losing 3 or 4 out of the next 7. We don't need to focus on winning round 16. We have to plan to rest players who do not want a rest. We need our rucks and mids and our second tier players and of course our stars like Roo and Dal to be in tip top shape. We want the guys busrting out of their skin when finals come along and at the same time, we don't need to tell the footy public that this is in fact our strategy. Let them challenge each other and push themselves in the last few home and away matches. Let's plan for the team to be firing on all cylinders and manage and maintain our peak form deep into September."

The taxing nature of the game plan and the forward press had to take it's toll sooner or later. The fact that he made 8 or 9 changes was an admission that the old phurphy about 'not flirting with form' was dead. The era of defensive zones and running from end to end had changed the game and Ross's game plan was going to have a cost. Everything always come at a cost. Why did Ross wait until Round 19 to force some changes? Why didn't he have the cojones to make the changes in Round 16? Why didn't he roll the dice and go for the ultimate prize? In the end he wasn't good enough to lead the side to victory.

Yep, it's that easy isn't it...maybe you should just let go now.....move on it's 2012

[plugger66]

In the end it was pleasing.....no hang on....it was bullsh1t...What's the point of winning 19 in a row!!?? Ross was handed the blueprint and he failed. The fact that the team played in pre-lims before he arrived and the fact that we had such an awesome year in 2009, tells me that it was all wasted on the wrong coach. In the end, he isn't a great coach.

For me personally, the loss in GF 09 wiped out any good memories of matches attended in 09 and I'd give back all those wins in a row anyday, if we could have ended up with the premiership. We won well and we smashed teams and we kept winning until we had 13 in a row, 14 in a row, 15 in a row... At what point do you reckon it was time for the match committee and the senior coach to start thinking about the possibilty of a GF challenge?

Who is responsible in the club for taking a step back and saying; "OK, we have our best chance this year of winning a flag. Alright, let's plan for September right now. None of this bu11sh1t talk about taking it one week at a time. We don't need to be afraid of losing 3 or 4 out of the next 7. We don't need to focus on winning round 16. We have to plan to rest players who do not want a rest. We need our rucks and mids and our second tier players and of course our stars like Roo and Dal to be in tip top shape. We want the guys busrting out of their skin when finals come along and at the same time, we don't need to tell the footy public that this is in fact our strategy. Let them challenge each other and push themselves in the last few home and away matches. Let's plan for the team to be firing on all cylinders and manage and maintain our peak form deep into September."

The taxing nature of the game plan and the forward press had to take it's toll sooner or later. The fact that he made 8 or 9 changes was an admission that the old phurphy about 'not flirting with form' was dead. The era of defensive zones and running from end to end had changed the game and Ross's game plan was going to have a cost. Everything always come at a cost. Why did Ross wait until Round 19 to force some changes? Why didn't he have the cojones to make the changes in Round 16? Why didn't he roll the dice and go for the ultimate prize? In the end he wasn't good enough to lead the side to victory.

As you obviously a sports scientist can you tell us what the difference would have been on their performance on GF day had some of those players had a break earlier in the season. Can you also tell me how they would have kicked for goals better with a break earlier in the season.

[SainterK]

Dunno if Scollop knows those answers, but Chris Scott seems to subcribe to the theory.

[plugger66]

Dunno if Scollop knows those answers, but Chris Scott seems to subcribe to the theory.

So 3 years ago everything was the same as it is now in footy. Cant remember to many clubs resting players even 2 years ago and I certainly cant remember you even suggesting resting players. Matter of fact everything RL did had your blessing.

[Scollop]

Yep, it's that easy isn't it...maybe you should just let go now.....move on it's 2012

Ok thanks for letting me know what year we are in. What's your point...times change...Yep, I agree. Lyon should have figured it out, but he was stuck back in 2005/6 wasn't he? If he cleared his mind of his bias and his stubborness... it could have been...well...not easy, but maybe not as excruciatingly frustrating for Saints supporters. And...I was just thinking exactly what SainterK was thinking...Chris Scott proved that a fresh approach and challenging preconceived ideas can work. His management of his playing list and especially the senior group last year was clinical and calculated.

Chris Scott wanted the ultimate success, but he would not sacrifice the development of their younger players. I have no doubt that Scott's talks with the senior blokes in early 2011 meant that they basically went for broke. I also have no doubt that in July 2011, his planning would have been focussed on 'winning' the GF if they got in, not just trying to get there. In 2010 we also saw Malthouse challenge all his players and work the whole list. As head coaches, they were empowered to lead and inspire and encourage the whole list so that the team could win the ultimate prize. They did there job. Lyon failed

[SainterK]

Dunno if Scollop knows those answers, but Chris Scott seems to subcribe to the theory.

So 3 years ago everything was the same as it is now in footy. Cant remember to many clubs resting players even 2 years ago and I certainly cant remember you even suggesting resting players. Matter of fact everything RL did had your blessing.

I wasn't suggesting anything.

I simply expressed that Chris Scott thinks it's neccessary, and was a huge part of what he brought to Geelong, to add to the discussion.

Else I would of said I think we should of rested players, and offered MY opinion.

[plugger66]

Yep, it's that easy isn't it...maybe you should just let go now.....move on it's 2012

Ok thanks for letting me know what year we are in. What's your point...times change...Yep, I agree. Lyon should have figured it out, but he was stuck back in 2005/6 wasn't he? If he cleared his mind of his bias and his stubborness... it could have been...well...not easy, but maybe not as excruciatingly frustrating for Saints supporters. And...I was just thinking exactly what SainterK was thinking...Chris Scott proved that a fresh approach and challenging preconceived ideas can work. His management of his playing list and especially the senior group last year was clinical and calculated.

Chris Scott wanted the ultimate success, but he would not sacrifice the development of their younger players. I have no doubt that Scott's talks with the senior blokes in early 2011 meant that they basically went for broke. I also have no doubt that in July 2011, his planning would have been focussed on 'winning' the GF if they got in, not just trying to get there. In 2010 we also saw Malthouse challenge all his players and work the whole list. As head coaches, they were empowered to lead and inspire and encourage the whole list so that the team could win the ultimate prize. They did there job. Lyon failed

Can you give us a rundown of all the pies players rested in 2010? I would guess you were one of these supporters gloating to your mates in 2009 that will go through the season undefeated and you probably even upset when they rested those players against the hawks. But in hindsight that cost us a flag in your opinion because they should have been rested earlier. I actually think the worst thing we did was rest those players. There is nearly more proof that cost us momentum than some trumped up rubbish that being rested in round 16 would have helped us on GF day kick straighter.

[SaintPav]

Yep, it's that easy isn't it...maybe you should just let go now.....move on it's 2012

Ok thanks for letting me know what year we are in. What's your point...times change...Yep, I agree. Lyon should have figured it out, but he was stuck back in 2005/6 wasn't he? If he cleared his mind of his bias and his stubborness... it could have been...well...not easy, but maybe not as excruciatingly frustrating for Saints supporters. And...I was just thinking exactly what SainterK was thinking...Chris Scott proved that a fresh approach and challenging preconceived ideas can work. His management of his playing list and especially the senior group last year was clinical and calculated.

Chris Scott wanted the ultimate success, but he would not sacrifice the development of their younger players. I have no doubt that Scott's talks with the senior blokes in early 2011 meant that they basically went for broke. I also have no doubt that in July 2011, his planning would have been focussed on 'winning' the GF if they got in, not just trying to get there. In 2010 we also saw Malthouse challenge all his players and work the whole list. As head coaches, they were empowered to lead and inspire and encourage the whole list so that the team could win the ultimate prize. They did there job. Lyon failed

Geelong on Collingwood had the choice to play the younger players and we didn't for the same reason that those young players are no longer at the club. It's called depth.

You can't compare the St Kilda 0f 2009 with the Geelong of 2011.

We could not have started resting palyers in round 16 becuase we did not have top position secured. It was unheard of resting players on masse in 2009 and from what I remember it was a little controvesrial at the time.

You are suffering from hindsight bias.

[Scollop]

One thing I'm not is one-eyed and one other thing I'm not is stupid. Ever heard of Edward De Bono? As I've said many times before...I didn't see the logic in keeping Rooy and King and Gardiner and Dal and BJ and Gilbo and Joey and Schneids and others out there each week after we'd won 15 in a row.

Only a blinkered one-eyed 'follower' ( and by that I mean follower in every sense of that particular word) would have hoped that we'd go through the season undefeated. And again...I've said it before...what's the point of winning 19 in a row if you're a not planning properly to win the ultimate

[plugger66]

One thing I'm not is one-eyed and one other thing I'm not is stupid. Ever heard of Edward De Bono? As I've said many times before...I didn't see the logic in keeping Rooy and King and Gardiner and Dal and BJ and Gilbo and Joey and Schneids and others out there each week after we'd won 15 in a row.

Only a blinkered one-eyed 'follower' ( and by that I mean follower in every sense of that particular word) would have hoped that we'd go through the season undefeated. And again...I've said it before...what's the point of winning 19 in a row if you're a not planning properly to win the ultimate

Why is the magic figure 15? Obviously it cant be 18 as that would wreck your argument. There were plenty here that wanted to win 25 in a row. I certainly wasnt one of them but as I dont know how training was structured to maybe give plenty of rest to players I decided the coach knows more than us. You still havent given me a reason as to how resting would have made the players kick better for goal in the GF and also how many Pies players were rested before the 2010 GF.

[Scollop]

It's not a magic figure. It's what I thought at the time. If we were good enough to win 15 in a row...logic tells you we would probably win a few more from there. Logic also tells you you cannot get the best out of your playing group unless there is some fear involved in their motivation for wanting to be at their best and perform at their best. Some of the guys who are seen as 'regulars' perhaps didn't have that added motivation, because basically Lyon wasn't relegating them to the magoos. How are you meant to develop your youth if you don't give them opportunity. St Pav reckons they were'nt ready...well I saw a few of them played some damn fine footy but guess what...they were dropped back to the VFL the next week weren't they??

The coach didn't have faith in the youngsters on the list, didn't play younsters on the list and this was to the detriment of the whole team...here's where another point of footy philosophy comes into it...why is resting players seen only as a threat to winning, and why is playing and developing the youth mutually exclusive to winning. If Mick Malthouse stuck with Lockyer, Medhurst and O'bree and three or four of his other regulars all year in 2010, how the hell would he have seen how Blair or Sidebottom or Reid or others would've performed??? In actual fact these younger blokes added and aided their team.

[clarky449]

In 2009 the team was on a slow decline after we beat the cats. it was obvious that we were running out of puff and some players couldnt keep up their output. We were lucky to make the gf in the end. the cats managed their team better throughout the year and it showed witg them running games out and looking fresher.

Running out of puff? Good God..
I thought we played pretty good in the QF and the GF. Hardly teams that were out of puff.

[plugger66]

It'snot a magic figure. It's what I thought at the time. If we were good enough to win 15 in a row...logic tells you we would probably win a few more from there. Logic also tells you you cannot get the best out of your playing group unless there is some fear involved in their motivation for wanting to be at their best and perform at their best. Some of the guys who are seen as 'regulars' perhaps didn't have that added motivation, because basically Lyon wasn't relegating them to the magoos. How are you meant to develop your youth if you don't give them opportunity. St Pav reckons they were'nt ready...well I saw a few of them play some damn fine games but guess what...they were dropped back to the VFL the next week weren't they??

The coach didn't have faith in the youngsters on the list, didn't play younsters on the list and this was to the detriment of the whole team...here's where another point of footy philosophy comes into it...why is resting players seen only as a threat to winning, and why is playing and developing the youth mutually exclusive to winning. If Mick Malthouse stuck with Lockyer, Medhurst and O'bree and three or four of his other regulars all year in 2010, how the hell would he have seen how Blair or Sidebottom or others would've performed???

So now it isnt about resting players its about giving young kids a go. Who are these young kids. Jack was given a go and unluckily for him he had bad groins. Armo was given a go and was then dropped as RL tought he wasnt ready. I cant see anything wrong with that as I still not sure he is ready. Who are these other guys? Ben played but was raw as expected of a 19 year old ruckman. Heyne played and wasnt good enough. Still struggling to think of many others. Can you help me. Can you also help me on the guys that should have been dropped to the magoos in 2009. I am struggling to remember. Cant be Mini as he had a good year. Eddy was certainly servicable. Geary played a lot of games and was dropped as you seem to want.

[Scollop]

Armo is ready and was ready. Ben could've been given a few extra games. Blake and Eddy should've been dropped for a few extra games as could have Dempster and Luke Miles definitely deserved more games. Maybe Milney or Schneids should have been rested more in the latter part of '09. As for Jack and his groins...don't most players play with some niggles in Grand Finals...OHhHhhhhh, yeah, geeeee that would have been such a risk...why not just stick to the conservative viewpoint and just play the regulars...at least that way you won't get P66 offside

[Spinner]

In the end it was pleasing.....no hang on....it was bullsh1t...What's the point of winning 19 in a row!!?? Ross was handed the blueprint and he failed. The fact that the team played in pre-lims before he arrived and the fact that we had such an awesome year in 2009, tells me that it was all wasted on the wrong coach. In the end, he isn't a great coach.

For me personally, the loss in GF 09 wiped out any good memories of matches attended in 09 and I'd give back all those wins in a row anyday, if we could have ended up with the premiership. We won well and we smashed teams and we kept winning until we had 13 in a row, 14 in a row, 15 in a row... At what point do you reckon it was time for the match committee and the senior coach to start thinking about the possibilty of a GF challenge?

Who is responsible in the club for taking a step back and saying; "OK, we have our best chance this year of winning a flag. Alright, let's plan for September right now. None of this bu11sh1t talk about taking it one week at a time. We don't need to be afraid of losing 3 or 4 out of the next 7. We don't need to focus on winning round 16. We have to plan to rest players who do not want a rest. We need our rucks and mids and our second tier players and of course our stars like Roo and Dal to be in tip top shape. We want the guys busrting out of their skin when finals come along and at the same time, we don't need to tell the footy public that this is in fact our strategy. Let them challenge each other and push themselves in the last few home and away matches. Let's plan for the team to be firing on all cylinders and manage and maintain our peak form deep into September."

The taxing nature of the game plan and the forward press had to take it's toll sooner or later. The fact that he made 8 or 9 changes was an admission that the old phurphy about 'not flirting with form' was dead. The era of defensive zones and running from end to end had changed the game and Ross's game plan was going to have a cost. Everything always come at a cost. Why did Ross wait until Round 19 to force some changes? Why didn't he have the cojones to make the changes in Round 16? Why didn't he roll the dice and go for the ultimate prize? In the end he wasn't good enough to lead the side to victory.

LOL

Rest them until 2054, that way they would be super fresh.


They were planning for September from Round 18. How?

- Increased training loads
- Resting of players in R19
- Matches lost in the last weeks due to increased training amung other things

And these are the only facets we know about. So how on earth can you say we were not preparing for the finals? Because we kept winning? There are only three result possibilities, W, L and D.


You wouldnt know a good coach if it smacked you in the face. All GF are difficult to win. Just because you have a terrific season doesnt make them easier.

But I think Im explaining that to someone incapable of ever understanding....

[Scollop]

Your name is spot on. I think you are full of it

[Spinner]

Your name is spot on. I think you are full of it

Full of what exactly? Please enlighten me.

Great response though... Maybe you should rest from posting for a bit, it would make sure you are fresh, then I'd be able to respond to a post that actually had some sort of football concept in it rather than one with you making a simple reference to my name.

[plugger66]

Armo is ready and was ready. Ben could've been given a few extra games. Blake and Eddy should've been dropped for a few extra games as could have Dempster and Luke Miles definitely deserved more games. Maybe Milney or Schneids should have been rested more in the latter part of '09. As for Jack and his groins...don't most players play with some niggles in Grand Finals...OHhHhhhhh, yeah, geeeee that would have been such a risk...why not just stick to the conservative viewpoint and just play the regulars...at least that way you won't get P66 offside

Firstly Jacks groins were stuffed. if he played you would be hindsight whinging now. Armo IMO wasnt really ready and also had some minor injury concerns. Luke Miles was delisted and not picked up by another club because he wasnt good enough. kills were very poor. Didnt dempster play as many games as his body allowed due to injury. Really in the end you have just about proven your own argument as poor as you have given us bugger all that RL did wrong.

[Scollop]

I don't need to prove anything to you and you can have your opinion...it's just different to mine. As far as RLyon not doing anything wrong...well...great footy coaches are judged on premierships. Our team was ready to win one. He failed.

If you want to keep defending him, go ahead. Your argument that he did nothing wrong and your posts and Spinners and the child's clarky's posts don't mean squat to the vast majority of us who have witnessed lost opportunities and excuses and Lyin passin blame to others...