Ross Lyon on The Couch this Monday

[VERDUN]

come on guys move on - this how forum should not be consumed by R Lyon - the season is about to start lets talk about L Hayes, A Sipposs, S Ross, D Armitage, R Stanley, etc

I am excited by the upcoming season lets get in to it

Carn the Saints

[8856brother]

Where are you Clarkey?

Ross needs some love.

[saintly]

All things considered I was a huge fan of Ro$$y's time at our club.
That said, how Ro$$y left does not sit well.
I think that it is important for the club to sort this out, rather than us just say he's gone now and we should move on, coz as we know those who don't learn from the mistakes of history are condemned to repeat them.
Now, we have some people with sources that say he was offered a deal better than the minimum he sort, others saying Ro$$y was offered a contract for less $$$ than his previous one...
So to all you Saintsationalists out there with contacts, inside info, whatever... which is it???
My thanks in anticipation.

Dave, you seem to be confused by the dollar signs in your eyes, which you are oddly projecting onto Ross's ("RoSSy's") name.
It looks very odd.

There were 2 separate offers put by Nettlefold to Ross.
The original one, in March, was for a 2 year extension with a PAY-CUT plus incentives.
Six months later, Nettlefold was forced to discard that insulting offer and replace it with something approaching market-value as rumours were rife that a rival club was pursuing Ross aggressively for a 4 or 5-year multimillion deal.
Ross never dreamt of making demands remotely approximating his true worth. He is not that kind of man.
So in that sense, yes, the deal he was offered was better than the minimum he sought.
That, however, was only because Nettlefold's hand was forced as he'd left it too late and other clubs were now chasing.

Ultimately, however, money was not the reason Ross left.
Terms had been agreed, Then when pen was about to be put to paper, something occurred that cut Ross to the core.
He disappeared and went to Fremantle. It was an emotional decision, the background to which I have described in a previous post.
For Ross to have gone into the details would have looked very, very bad for our club.
But no inside information is needed to know that Ross was morally and legally entitled to do what he did.

The suggestion that Ross "screwed his management" and "screwed the club" are laughable.
My reasons for saying so are explained elsewhere, in a post to SainterK on BF:

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthrea ... 02&page=18

You keep referring to this incident that cut ross to the core.
Put up or shut up IMO.

If STKFC signed Ross Lyon to a multi million dollar contract in May 2011 amongst declining membership and performances on the pitch that put supporters off then we deserve the loser tag forever bestowed upon us. He had another year we should not have even entertained the idea of extending his contract at that stage.

I agree. in fact as at May 2011 he had 1.5 years left on his contract. The st kilda hierarchy should not have even entertained extending his contract until at a minimum Oct 2011

[crippa2sipa]

C2S. Unless you have a similar work background..as distinct from just hearing rumours 3rd hand from friends of friends..Im afraid all you are is speculating..and hopefully not just twisting your speculation to suit your constant pro-RL agenda

Your entitled to your opinion of course..but lets not get opinion and fact mixed up eh? Happens far too much

Oh please. BackFromUSA is relying on inside information. My responses to him rely on undisputed facts in the public domain. I am yet to see anyone dispute those facts.

There are no rumours or inside information needed to establish this:

1. Ross did not "screw his management" (see posts containing reasoning, not rumours).

2. Ross was legally and morally entitled to do what he did - and that includes walking out whenever he chose, at whatever point, for whatever reason (and no-one is in a position to prove the reason).

3. If the club wanted to keep Ross, the onus was on the club to do whatever it took BEFORE the money got out of hand. The failure to deliver was the club's failure yet insiders keep looking to lay the blame elsewhere.

4. If the club did not really want Ross, then the whole negotiation was a farce and a fraud on Ross. That is the height of immorality and the mark of a corrupt organization, as opposed to a merely incompetent one.


Now if people will kindly stop spewing mindless garbage as opposed to reasoned analysis I shall be happy to move on, as Verdun has wisely suggested.

[saintbrat]

[
1. Ross did not "screw his management" (see posts containing reasoning, not rumours).

2. Ross was legally and morally entitled to do what he did - and that includes walking out whenever he chose, at whatever point, for whatever reason (and no-one is in a position to prove the reason).

3. If the club wanted to keep Ross, the onus was on the club to do whatever it took BEFORE the money got out of hand. The failure to deliver was the club's failure yet insiders keep looking to lay the blame elsewhere.

4. If the club did not really want Ross, then the whole negotiation was a farce and a fraud on Ross. That is the height of immorality and the mark of a corrupt organization, as opposed to a merely incompetent one.

My question: re Ross and His management- whilst he may not have' screwed his management' he did not deal in Good faith- he had them negotiating with the Saints up to and including the Thursday untill the announcement was made, how this is an entitlement as you suggest I am not sure?
if you are 'paying someone to manage your affairs' I would assume they would think that was what they were doing?
ys there was an agreement POST the decision and announcment that they agreeed to part ways.. but it was only AFTER the fact- ESP were caught out as were media and maybe it was Media who ahve driven the angst..

Ross has spoken to his 'audience' where ever that may be... his appearance on Monday would appear to be a strategy either of Ross? or Fox Footy? or Paul Roos? for what ever their reasons
But one question he has used differant answers to over the last couple of months dependant on his 'audience' is the simple one of ' Seaford how far..."
On WA radio ( and yes Ross we do get podcasts from there to here..) he stated 'Yeh it's great here I only have to listen to One song as I live close to the ground. '- To me intimating that it's great to be close to work
Yet Monday Night he was trying very hard to say the 30 min drive was great.. and better than it had been to Linton st--
I did note he said " We loved Linton st"

[Spinner]

For those saying they 'didnt like how Ross went about it'... How exactly else would you go about it. In fact he went about it perfectly.

He had to say last night that he didn't wake up and decide that he wanted to hurt St Kilda, why did he say that, because general consensus out there was that he was hurt so hurt back.

If the fact is that one person grossly offended him (Nettlefold) he certainly made sure he exposed and humiliated the football club in it's entirety.

Set up for a press conference they were, one agreed to by Ross, a celebration party that instead ended up with no VIP as he was flying probably over SA at that point....and left Seaford swarming with journos doing live crosses as the club reeled.

I reckon it could of been done better, which I understand is just my plain old little lowly supporter opinion, which I'm actually getting a little tired of being scolded for at every opportunity truth be known. Given I'm choosing to express it on a football forum...not with any grand illusions that I am significant or speak on behalf of the football club.

How. How could he have done it better? Its such an easy line to say.

There is nothing better he could have done it. He left the club, to coach another club. Bar not walking away, which was the decision he made, how could he have handled that situation better?

*Not sure what the last paragraph is on about....

[SaintPav]

C2S. Unless you have a similar work background..as distinct from just hearing rumours 3rd hand from friends of friends..Im afraid all you are is speculating..and hopefully not just twisting your speculation to suit your constant pro-RL agenda

Your entitled to your opinion of course..but lets not get opinion and fact mixed up eh? Happens far too much

Oh please. BackFromUSA is relying on inside information. My responses to him rely on undisputed facts in the public domain. I am yet to see anyone dispute those facts.

There are no rumours or inside information needed to establish this:

1. Ross did not "screw his management" (see posts containing reasoning, not rumours).

2. Ross was legally and morally entitled to do what he did - and that includes walking out whenever he chose, at whatever point, for whatever reason (and no-one is in a position to prove the reason).

3. If the club wanted to keep Ross, the onus was on the club to do whatever it took BEFORE the money got out of hand. The failure to deliver was the club's failure yet insiders keep looking to lay the blame elsewhere.

4. If the club did not really want Ross, then the whole negotiation was a farce and a fraud on Ross. That is the height of immorality and the mark of a corrupt organization, as opposed to a merely incompetent one.


Now if people will kindly stop spewing mindless garbage as opposed to reasoned analysis I shall be happy to move on, as Verdun has wisely suggested.

The only spewing I'm reading here is you trying to pass off your opinion as fact and that we should all just accept this as exactly what happened.

There is no such thing as facts, only interpretations.

[Spinner]

[
1. Ross did not "screw his management" (see posts containing reasoning, not rumours).

2. Ross was legally and morally entitled to do what he did - and that includes walking out whenever he chose, at whatever point, for whatever reason (and no-one is in a position to prove the reason).

3. If the club wanted to keep Ross, the onus was on the club to do whatever it took BEFORE the money got out of hand. The failure to deliver was the club's failure yet insiders keep looking to lay the blame elsewhere.

4. If the club did not really want Ross, then the whole negotiation was a farce and a fraud on Ross. That is the height of immorality and the mark of a corrupt organization, as opposed to a merely incompetent one.

My question: re Ross and His management- whilst he may not have' screwed his management' he did not deal in Good faith- he had them negotiating with the Saints up to and including the Thursday untill the announcement was made, how this is an entitlement as you suggest I am not sure?
if you are 'paying someone to manage your affairs' I would assume they would think that was what they were doing?
ys there was an agreement POST the decision and announcment that they agreeed to part ways.. but it was only AFTER the fact- ESP were caught out as were media and maybe it was Media who ahve driven the angst..

Ross has spoken to his 'audience' where ever that may be... his appearance on Monday would appear to be a strategy either of Ross? or Fox Footy? or Paul Roos? for what ever their reasons
But one question he has used differant answers to over the last couple of months dependant on his 'audience' is the simple one of ' Seaford how far..."
On WA radio ( and yes Ross we do get podcasts from there to here..) he stated 'Yeh it's great here I only have to listen to One song as I live close to the ground. '- To me intimating that it's great to be close to work
Yet Monday Night he was trying very hard to say the 30 min drive was great.. and better than it had been to Linton st--
I did note he said " We loved Linton st"

I disagree with a lot of that. A benefit of being close to work is still a benefit. One comment doesn't make it a reason to fly 4hrs west and make a massive career change.

Regarding the management. ESP managed Mark Harvey. A massive issue. No one person here would risk going to them for their own negotiating. How were they able to deal someone in whe dealing someone out.


It's like people wanted him to not negotiate with the saints. Resign. Take a holiday. Then apply for the Freo job. He obviously took a better offer, but it he hadn't he'd be the coach in 2012 without anyone knowing.

What happens if Freo change their mind last minute? He did what was best for himself. It cuts me - but there was no other better way of handling it. Realistically anyways.

[crippa2sipa]

[
1. Ross did not "screw his management" (see posts containing reasoning, not rumours).

2. Ross was legally and morally entitled to do what he did - and that includes walking out whenever he chose, at whatever point, for whatever reason (and no-one is in a position to prove the reason).

3. If the club wanted to keep Ross, the onus was on the club to do whatever it took BEFORE the money got out of hand. The failure to deliver was the club's failure yet insiders keep looking to lay the blame elsewhere.

4. If the club did not really want Ross, then the whole negotiation was a farce and a fraud on Ross. That is the height of immorality and the mark of a corrupt organization, as opposed to a merely incompetent one.

My question: re Ross and His management- whilst he may not have' screwed his management' he did not deal in Good faith- he had them negotiating with the Saints up to and including the Thursday untill the announcement was made, how this is an entitlement as you suggest I am not sure?
if you are 'paying someone to manage your affairs' I would assume they would think that was what they were doing?
ys there was an agreement POST the decision and announcment that they agreeed to part ways.. but it was only AFTER the fact- ESP were caught out as were media and maybe it was Media who ahve driven the angst..

Ross has spoken to his 'audience' where ever that may be... his appearance on Monday would appear to be a strategy either of Ross? or Fox Footy? or Paul Roos? for what ever their reasons
But one question he has used differant answers to over the last couple of months dependant on his 'audience' is the simple one of ' Seaford how far..."
On WA radio ( and yes Ross we do get podcasts from there to here..) he stated 'Yeh it's great here I only have to listen to One song as I live close to the ground. '- To me intimating that it's great to be close to work
Yet Monday Night he was trying very hard to say the 30 min drive was great.. and better than it had been to Linton st--
I did note he said " We loved Linton st"

I'm afraid Ross did act in good faith. The reason is this.
In every sports management contract there is an implied term (ie a term implied by law) that the manager is appointed as the sole manager EXCEPT where a conflict of interest arises which the client considers disabling.
ESP are not naive. They work within the framework of the law.
What they did not do (apparently) is account for the risk that Fremantle would be the ones to swoop.
Had they factored in that risk, they would have known that Ross COULD NOT disclose such an approach because ESP could not protect Ross's confidences without betraying Harvey's trust, and they could not keep Harvey's trust without breaching Ross's confidence. Breach of confidence and breach of trust are very serious offences.

Contractual negotiations require confidentiality. The law understand this. Many here do not.

Re Seaford: Nothing sinister there.
I heard Ross tell that story re how Seaford was so much easier for him than Moorabbin loads of times in radio interviews when he was our coach. He said it when there was all that hysteria about how everyone hated Seaford.
Ross spoke the truth to both "audiences". The 30 minute drive to Seaford was great compared to the drive to Moorabbin. The 3 minute drive to Fremantle was great compared to the 30 minute drive to Seaford. Big deal.

Honestly, why are people so obsessed with seeing something sinister in every word Ross utters?

[maverick]

C2S. Unless you have a similar work background..as distinct from just hearing rumours 3rd hand from friends of friends..Im afraid all you are is speculating..and hopefully not just twisting your speculation to suit your constant pro-RL agenda

Your entitled to your opinion of course..but lets not get opinion and fact mixed up eh? Happens far too much

Oh please. BackFromUSA is relying on inside information. My responses to him rely on undisputed facts in the public domain. I am yet to see anyone dispute those facts.

There are no rumours or inside information needed to establish this:

1. Ross did not "screw his management" (see posts containing reasoning, not rumours).

2. Ross was legally and morally entitled to do what he did - and that includes walking out whenever he chose, at whatever point, for whatever reason (and no-one is in a position to prove the reason).

3. If the club wanted to keep Ross, the onus was on the club to do whatever it took BEFORE the money got out of hand. The failure to deliver was the club's failure yet insiders keep looking to lay the blame elsewhere.

4. If the club did not really want Ross, then the whole negotiation was a farce and a fraud on Ross. That is the height of immorality and the mark of a corrupt organization, as opposed to a merely incompetent one.


Now if people will kindly stop spewing mindless garbage as opposed to reasoned analysis I shall be happy to move on, as Verdun has wisely suggested.

You're right, when the mindless garbage stops we can move on, so are you finished then?
You could instead answer the one question directed at you if you wish to add any small value to this forum.

[dragit]

Opposition forum?

[Spinner]

Like your work C2S...

But who are you? Are people implying that you are Stinger? I havnt been kept up to speed...

[philtee]

I've now read this entire thread a second time, and I'm no wiser about anything.

[clarky449]

Okay to Sum up this thread and then we can close it.

Ross Lyon is an intelligent man, one who did great things for this club. It is a shame we dont have someone as good as Ross Now, i only hope Scott is on Par or even better. Ross spoke great on Monday but we all know that, we have seen him perform for a number of years now. We always learn from him. If Scott can be a bit like him then we have a winner. Freo are lucky to have Ross, i just hope we are Luckier to have Scott... Time will tell.




Lock thread now Mods

[plugger66]

[
1. Ross did not "screw his management" (see posts containing reasoning, not rumours).

2. Ross was legally and morally entitled to do what he did - and that includes walking out whenever he chose, at whatever point, for whatever reason (and no-one is in a position to prove the reason).

3. If the club wanted to keep Ross, the onus was on the club to do whatever it took BEFORE the money got out of hand. The failure to deliver was the club's failure yet insiders keep looking to lay the blame elsewhere.

4. If the club did not really want Ross, then the whole negotiation was a farce and a fraud on Ross. That is the height of immorality and the mark of a corrupt organization, as opposed to a merely incompetent one.

My question: re Ross and His management- whilst he may not have' screwed his management' he did not deal in Good faith- he had them negotiating with the Saints up to and including the Thursday untill the announcement was made, how this is an entitlement as you suggest I am not sure?
if you are 'paying someone to manage your affairs' I would assume they would think that was what they were doing?
ys there was an agreement POST the decision and announcment that they agreeed to part ways.. but it was only AFTER the fact- ESP were caught out as were media and maybe it was Media who ahve driven the angst..

Ross has spoken to his 'audience' where ever that may be... his appearance on Monday would appear to be a strategy either of Ross? or Fox Footy? or Paul Roos? for what ever their reasons
But one question he has used differant answers to over the last couple of months dependant on his 'audience' is the simple one of ' Seaford how far..."
On WA radio ( and yes Ross we do get podcasts from there to here..) he stated 'Yeh it's great here I only have to listen to One song as I live close to the ground. '- To me intimating that it's great to be close to work
Yet Monday Night he was trying very hard to say the 30 min drive was great.. and better than it had been to Linton st--
I did note he said " We loved Linton st"

If he decided he wanted out at the Saints I am unsure how he could include his management as they also managed Harvey.

[Con Gorozidis]

come on guys move on - this how forum should not be consumed by R Lyon - the season is about to start lets talk about L Hayes, A Sipposs, S Ross, D Armitage, R Stanley, etc

I am excited by the upcoming season lets get in to it

Carn the Saints

good call verdun!

[saintspremiers]

Okay to Sum up this thread and then we can close it.

Ross Lyon is an intelligent man, one who did great things for this club. It is a shame we dont have someone as good as Ross Now, i only hope Scott is on Par or even better. Ross spoke great on Monday but we all know that, we have seen him perform for a number of years now. We always learn from him. If Scott can be a bit like him then we have a winner. Freo are lucky to have Ross, i just hope we are Luckier to have Scott... Time will tell.




Lock thread now Mods

If Scott can be a bit like him?

LOL.

Go buy a blow up Ross Lyon doll from shockerland.com.au

That should satisfy your urgings I hope

Now that IS funny!

I think most of us want something a bit different, but nonetheless.

Clarkey, I'm sure you can buy a blow up Ross Lyon doll from either shockerland

[clarky449]

Okay to Sum up this thread and then we can close it.

Ross Lyon is an intelligent man, one who did great things for this club. It is a shame we dont have someone as good as Ross Now, i only hope Scott is on Par or even better. Ross spoke great on Monday but we all know that, we have seen him perform for a number of years now. We always learn from him. If Scott can be a bit like him then we have a winner. Freo are lucky to have Ross, i just hope we are Luckier to have Scott... Time will tell.




Lock thread now Mods

If Scott can be a bit like him?

LOL.

Go buy a blow up Ross Lyon doll from shockerland.com.au

That should satisfy your urgings I hope

Now that IS funny!

I think most of us want something a bit different, but nonetheless.

Clarkey, I'm sure you can buy a blow up Ross Lyon doll from either shockerland

I cant take you seriously any more. I have been trying hard to work around it. First it was about the cricket and now you show me that you have close to no knowledge about that game.

[Con Gorozidis]

clarky you dont actually say anything. you just say how lyon is intelligent and knows a lot about the game and everyone else is stupid and knows nothing about the game.

what exactly is it that you and ross know about the game that noone else does? if you tell us we will all know. or is it "secret" knowledge?

[clarky449]

clarky you dont actually say anything. you just say how lyon is intelligent and knows a lot about the game and everyone else is stupid and knows nothing about the game.

what exactly is it that you and ross know about the game that noone else does? if you tell us we will all know. or is it "secret" knowledge?

For a small fee im happy to conduct "Football Knowledge" Classes.

[SaintPav]

clarky you dont actually say anything. you just say how lyon is intelligent and knows a lot about the game and everyone else is stupid and knows nothing about the game.

what exactly is it that you and ross know about the game that noone else does? if you tell us we will all know. or is it "secret" knowledge?

Hilarious...No one really knows anything.

[Con Gorozidis]

clarky you dont actually say anything. you just say how lyon is intelligent and knows a lot about the game and everyone else is stupid and knows nothing about the game.

what exactly is it that you and ross know about the game that noone else does? if you tell us we will all know. or is it "secret" knowledge?

For a small fee im happy to conduct "Football Knowledge" Classes.

haha! love it. online learning? interactive?
open universities would love this! could be a money spinner clarky.

[MCG-Unit]

[
1. Ross did not "screw his management" (see posts containing reasoning, not rumours).

2. Ross was legally and morally entitled to do what he did - and that includes walking out whenever he chose, at whatever point, for whatever reason (and no-one is in a position to prove the reason).

3. If the club wanted to keep Ross, the onus was on the club to do whatever it took BEFORE the money got out of hand. The failure to deliver was the club's failure yet insiders keep looking to lay the blame elsewhere.

4. If the club did not really want Ross, then the whole negotiation was a farce and a fraud on Ross. That is the height of immorality and the mark of a corrupt organization, as opposed to a merely incompetent one.

......Ross......did not deal in Good faith he had them negotiating with the Saints up to and including the Thursday......

I disagree with a lot of that. A benefit of being close to work is still a benefit. One comment doesn't make it a reason to fly 4hrs west and make a massive career change.
Regarding the management. ESP managed Mark Harvey......No person here would risk going to them for their own negotiating. How were they able to deal someone in when dealing someone out.

It's like people wanted him to not negotiate with the saints. Resign. Take a holiday. Then apply for the Freo job. He obviously took a better offer.....
What happens if Freo change their mind last minute? He did what was best for himself. It cuts me - but there was no other better way of handling it. Realistically anyways.

I agree with you, more than the poster you quoted - regarding ESP managing Harvey as well and therefore having a conflict, and also the being close to work part.

[Sobraz]

Ross acted like a shonky business man in the manner he left the Saints, which is exactly what he is, which is why he's blown his lot once already (that we know of), and will more than likely be swindled out of his mass of Dockers money by some clever WA entrepreneur again and come back to Melbourne with no dollars or Premierships...

Would love to see him and Rudd in conversation to see who can out doublespeak each other... The 2 best in the business... Lucky Rudd has Therese and Ross has his wife's parents to bail them both out...

[plugger66]

Ross acted like a shonky business man in the manner he left the Saints, which is exactly what he is, which is why he's blown his lot once already (that we know of), and will more than likely be swindled out of his mass of Dockers money by some clever WA entrepreneur again and come back to Melbourne with no dollars or Premierships...

Would love to see him and Rudd in conversation to see who can out doublespeak each other... The 2 best in the business... Lucky Rudd has Therese and Ross has his wife's parents to bail them both out...

This is really good stuff.