Ross Lyon on The Couch this Monday

[crippa2sipa]

What you are saying is unclear, Redeemer. If you think he lied, spell it out. What fibs?

[The Redeemer]

What you are saying is unclear, Redeemer. If you think he lied, spell it out. What fibs?

The second portion of my post. It displays potential fibbing due to not having a job despite his financial problems and his excuse of being 'emotionally out' despite his dire financial conditions as previously posted in my post.

He was 'emotionally out' much much earlier than what he is suggesting considering he swiftly jumped to another team within hours of being 'emotionally out' considering his financial issues and the need for bread on table etc.

Nettlefold is a bumbling twat. Where there is smoke there is fire and he certainly seems like a poor manager and certainly not a leader. The way he began announcing that the club was opening its door post-Bossco reeked of a yes man who says whatever necessary in the situation despite himself looking quite ridiculous. If the club was so insular why did Nettlefold not at least attempt to open the club a little considering the way he as paraded around now, it must have been a concern to him prior.

[saintbrat]

One cannot tell me that with his financial problems he blindly quit a position in hope of securing another position in the same industry whereby only 17 others exist and most were contracted/if not all?

That bit irks me. He is telling fibs and it is rather easy to see.

he was very clearly in hand of the new contract before he Quit the Saints- by 6pm pm the Thursday

I wonder what the situation may have been had there NOT been an out supplied by Freo.

[wasaintsfan]

Ross Lyon stated before the game on Sunday he was approached by Fremantle for the head coaching Role - 6 weeks before the finals, he responded that they approach him at the end of the season.

Now im no genius but i believe that would've made it around early August........

So pretty sure he wouldve had an idea of the contract on offer from Fremantle and the payment involved.
Maybe i misheard him.

[IluvHarvey]

I hope he has a winless year at Fremantle.

[SainterK]

For those saying they 'didnt like how Ross went about it'... How exactly else would you go about it. In fact he went about it perfectly.

He had to say last night that he didn't wake up and decide that he wanted to hurt St Kilda, why did he say that, because general consensus out there was that he was hurt so hurt back.

If the fact is that one person grossly offended him (Nettlefold) he certainly made sure he exposed and humiliated the football club in it's entirety.

Set up for a press conference they were, one agreed to by Ross, a celebration party that instead ended up with no VIP as he was flying probably over SA at that point....and left Seaford swarming with journos doing live crosses as the club reeled.

I reckon it could of been done better, which I understand is just my plain old little lowly supporter opinion, which I'm actually getting a little tired of being scolded for at every opportunity truth be known. Given I'm choosing to express it on a football forum...not with any grand illusions that I am significant or speak on behalf of the football club.

[skeptic]

What you are saying is unclear, Redeemer. If you think he lied, spell it out. What fibs?

The second portion of my post. It displays potential fibbing due to not having a job despite his financial problems and his excuse of being 'emotionally out' despite his dire financial conditions as previously posted in my post.

He was 'emotionally out' much much earlier than what he is suggesting considering he swiftly jumped to another team within hours of being 'emotionally out' considering his financial issues and the need for bread on table etc.

Nettlefold is a bumbling twat. Where there is smoke there is fire and he certainly seems like a poor manager and certainly not a leader. The way he began announcing that the club was opening its door post-Bossco reeked of a yes man who says whatever necessary in the situation despite himself looking quite ridiculous. If the club was so insular why did Nettlefold not at least attempt to open the club a little considering the way he as paraded around now, it must have been a concern to him prior.

have to remember that he still had another year on his contract

[maverick]

All things considered I was a huge fan of Ro$$y's time at our club.
That said, how Ro$$y left does not sit well.
I think that it is important for the club to sort this out, rather than us just say he's gone now and we should move on, coz as we know those who don't learn from the mistakes of history are condemned to repeat them.
Now, we have some people with sources that say he was offered a deal better than the minimum he sort, others saying Ro$$y was offered a contract for less $$$ than his previous one...
So to all you Saintsationalists out there with contacts, inside info, whatever... which is it???
My thanks in anticipation.

Dave, you seem to be confused by the dollar signs in your eyes, which you are oddly projecting onto Ross's ("RoSSy's") name.
It looks very odd.

There were 2 separate offers put by Nettlefold to Ross.
The original one, in March, was for a 2 year extension with a PAY-CUT plus incentives.
Six months later, Nettlefold was forced to discard that insulting offer and replace it with something approaching market-value as rumours were rife that a rival club was pursuing Ross aggressively for a 4 or 5-year multimillion deal.
Ross never dreamt of making demands remotely approximating his true worth. He is not that kind of man.
So in that sense, yes, the deal he was offered was better than the minimum he sought.
That, however, was only because Nettlefold's hand was forced as he'd left it too late and other clubs were now chasing.

Ultimately, however, money was not the reason Ross left.
Terms had been agreed, Then when pen was about to be put to paper, something occurred that cut Ross to the core.
He disappeared and went to Fremantle. It was an emotional decision, the background to which I have described in a previous post.
For Ross to have gone into the details would have looked very, very bad for our club.
But no inside information is needed to know that Ross was morally and legally entitled to do what he did.

The suggestion that Ross "screwed his management" and "screwed the club" are laughable.
My reasons for saying so are explained elsewhere, in a post to SainterK on BF:

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthrea ... 02&page=18

You keep referring to this incident that cut ross to the core.
Put up or shut up IMO.

If STKFC signed Ross Lyon to a multi million dollar contract in May 2011 amongst declining membership and performances on the pitch that put supporters off then we deserve the loser tag forever bestowed upon us. He had another year we should not have even entertained the idea of extending his contract at that stage.

[BackFromUSA]

crippa2sipa

The only thing laughable is what you wrote on Big Footy.

"As soon as contract talks with Freo began, Ross and his manager (Craig Kelly of ESP) - who also manages Mark Harvey - mutually agreed to terminate their relationship as a conflict of interest had arisen."

This is 100% untrue. ESP was totally unaware of even an approach from Fremantle.

Furthermore, ESP were appointed as his sole mangement and were the only party that any "moral" organisation should deal with in terms of the renegotiation of the contract OR in terms of making any gresh offers. Melbourne had the decency to go through ESP. Fremantle did not. It was Lyon's choice (and his alone) to not involve ESP. As a result ESP has a legitimate claim that Lyon should pay ESP agency commissions on the deal Lyon brokered using the leverage that he had (a contract in hand ready to sign) on Tuesday night to finalise the giant offer from Fremantle.

One final note to clear up any confusion:

March 2011 - St Kilda offered Ross Lyon a contract with a lowerr guaranteed base but with reasonable and large incentives (similar to the way Player contracts are structured) to increase his earning capacity.

May 2011 - Contract negotiations were placed on hold at Lyon's suggestion and with the club's agreement with about 18 months left on the existing contract.

On the recommencing of negotiations (forced forward by the Melbourne offer) the 2 parties ESP and St Kilda reasonably quickly came to mutually agreed contract that MORE than met Ross Lyon's briefed minimum requirement to ESP as his sole representatives of his coaching contract.

On the Tuesday Lyon indicated to both ESP and St Kilda that he would be in on Wednesday morning to sign that contract.

Crippa2Sipa

You claim that something then happened that cut Ross Lyon to the core between Tuesday afternoon and Wednesday morning.

My good sources believe that on Tuesday night Lyon was made a financial and operational offer from Fremantle that anyone would be mad to refuse and especially tempting for someone (through no fault of the clubs and purely his fault) had lost his life savings on poor investments.

You claim that Lyon was in his right to use his 3 month out clause - and he was i.e. he was contractually obligated to give 3 months notice. He did not give such notice. St Kilda had the legal right to insist that he could not take up his new position with Frematle until December 15, 2011.

I personally advocated that the club enforce that clause. I was told that the AFL and the St Kilda Board did not share my view.

Lyon should be grateful that he was released from this obligation by the wicked CEO.

Lyon (IMHO) should have paid ESP for their management work on his behalf by paying the agents commission on the contract negotiated with St Kilda and if he really had some morals - he would pay them the commission rate based on the mega $ deal he leveraged off of ESP's work.

Unless you can state what horrible deed the club or our CEO undertook that cut Lyon "to the core", I shall continue to believe the story that on Tuesday night Lyon took the money and ran.

You, of course, can continue to believe whatever you like.

What we can agree on is that our CEO has had a terrible 12 to 18 months and that he probably has 12 months to redeem himself and I would go as far to SPECULATE anything under 35,000 members and an increase in sponsorship revenue might result in his sacking or at minimum result in an immediate restructuring of the Membership and Sponsorship department in June or July to allow a new team to start planning early for 2013.

[SainterK]

All things considered I was a huge fan of Ro$$y's time at our club.
That said, how Ro$$y left does not sit well.
I think that it is important for the club to sort this out, rather than us just say he's gone now and we should move on, coz as we know those who don't learn from the mistakes of history are condemned to repeat them.
Now, we have some people with sources that say he was offered a deal better than the minimum he sort, others saying Ro$$y was offered a contract for less $$$ than his previous one...
So to all you Saintsationalists out there with contacts, inside info, whatever... which is it???
My thanks in anticipation.

Dave, you seem to be confused by the dollar signs in your eyes, which you are oddly projecting onto Ross's ("RoSSy's") name.
It looks very odd.

There were 2 separate offers put by Nettlefold to Ross.
The original one, in March, was for a 2 year extension with a PAY-CUT plus incentives.
Six months later, Nettlefold was forced to discard that insulting offer and replace it with something approaching market-value as rumours were rife that a rival club was pursuing Ross aggressively for a 4 or 5-year multimillion deal.
Ross never dreamt of making demands remotely approximating his true worth. He is not that kind of man.
So in that sense, yes, the deal he was offered was better than the minimum he sought.
That, however, was only because Nettlefold's hand was forced as he'd left it too late and other clubs were now chasing.

Ultimately, however, money was not the reason Ross left.
Terms had been agreed, Then when pen was about to be put to paper, something occurred that cut Ross to the core.
He disappeared and went to Fremantle. It was an emotional decision, the background to which I have described in a previous post.
For Ross to have gone into the details would have looked very, very bad for our club.
But no inside information is needed to know that Ross was morally and legally entitled to do what he did.

The suggestion that Ross "screwed his management" and "screwed the club" are laughable.
My reasons for saying so are explained elsewhere, in a post to SainterK on BF:

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthrea ... 02&page=18

You keep referring to this incident that cut ross to the core.
Put up or shut up IMO.

If STKFC signed Ross Lyon to a multi million dollar contract in May 2011 amongst declining membership and performances on the pitch that put supporters off then we deserve the loser tag forever bestowed upon us. He had another year we should not have even entertained the idea of extending his contract at that stage.

I'm not confident there will be answer to what cut him to the core, it's been alluded to that the contract was somehow changed at the last minute, but I don't see how that would cause all the 'emotion' that everyone keeps talking about.

I'd also like to know...

"For Ross to have gone into the details would have looked very, very bad for our club"

Our club, or our CEO?

[CJC]

It's not in Ross' interest to bag the club.

It's not in the clubs interest or supporters interest to keep worrying about him and everything he does.....

[Con Gorozidis]

Ross Lyon stated before the game on Sunday he was approached by Fremantle for the head coaching Role - 6 weeks before the finals, he responded that they approach him at the end of the season.

Now im no genius but i believe that would've made it around early August........

So pretty sure he wouldve had an idea of the contract on offer from Fremantle and the payment involved.
Maybe i misheard him.

hate how he says "i was headhunted" like that means anything or makes any difference to anything.

lets say by the sydney game he was 100% sure he was going to freo - so wanted the season over asap. cue - dempster to the fwd line.

[plugger66]

Ross Lyon stated before the game on Sunday he was approached by Fremantle for the head coaching Role - 6 weeks before the finals, he responded that they approach him at the end of the season.

Now im no genius but i believe that would've made it around early August........

So pretty sure he wouldve had an idea of the contract on offer from Fremantle and the payment involved.
Maybe i misheard him.

hate how he says "i was headhunted" like that means anything or makes any difference to anything.

lets say by the sydney game he was 100% sure he was going to freo - so wanted the season over asap. cue - dempster to the fwd line.

How you would know that? Lets face it only RL would know that. My guess is he wanted to win 100%. Makes a lot more sense than wanting the season over asap.

[saintspremiers]

Ross Lyon stated before the game on Sunday he was approached by Fremantle for the head coaching Role - 6 weeks before the finals, he responded that they approach him at the end of the season.

Now im no genius but i believe that would've made it around early August........

So pretty sure he wouldve had an idea of the contract on offer from Fremantle and the payment involved.
Maybe i misheard him.

hate how he says "i was headhunted" like that means anything or makes any difference to anything.

lets say by the sydney game he was 100% sure he was going to freo - so wanted the season over asap. cue - dempster to the fwd line.

How you would know that? Lets face it only RL would know that. My guess is he wanted to win 100%. Makes a lot more sense than wanting the season over asap.

He wanted to win but heart was not in it. Simple plugger.

You need to be at the top of your game mentally as a coach in a final.

[saintspremiers]

What we can agree on is that our CEO has had a terrible 12 to 18 months and that he probably has 12 months to redeem himself and I would go as far to SPECULATE anything under 35,000 members and an increase in sponsorship revenue might result in his sacking or at minimum result in an immediate restructuring of the Membership and Sponsorship department in June or July to allow a new team to start planning early for 2013.

Do you think we can get to 35K from where we are now?

IMO 33K would be tops....maybe winning the first 5 games will get us the extra 2K???

[crippa2sipa]

crippa2sipa

The only thing laughable is what you wrote on Big Footy.

"As soon as contract talks with Freo began, Ross and his manager (Craig Kelly of ESP) - who also manages Mark Harvey - mutually agreed to terminate their relationship as a conflict of interest had arisen."

This is 100% untrue. ESP was totally unaware of even an approach from Fremantle.

Calm down. Didn't you read the next post? Flyingsaint alerted me to the fact that my timeline was muddled. This was my reply:

"Woops! You're right about the timeline. I should have stated the point as follows:

After Ross struck the deal with Freo, Ross and ESP mutually agreed to terminate their relationship. Privately with Ross, ESP agreed that for Ross to have involved ESP in talks with Freo would have been inappropriate as there was a clear conflict of interest.

ESP nevertheless chose, when speaking to the media in Melbourne, to portray Ross as the villain - as someone they had to "sack" for speaking to the Dockers without their knowledge - as if Ross had done something sneaky or unlawful or inappropriate or underhand, when the opposite was in fact the case.

If there were any villains in the piece so far as management were concerned, it was ESP, for acting as if they had an unconditional right to represent Ross in all contract talks, which they did not."

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthrea ... 02&page=18

[crippa2sipa]

have to remember that he still had another year on his contract

Skeptic, this was not a normal contract. As I wrote in another post:

"Those who accuse Ross of being "duplicitous" for talking to St Kilda and Freo at the same time are being silly. Ross was a free agent. He was free to walk at any time, to negotiate with 10 clubs at a time, and to disappear from one negotiation and show up at another. He was free to do so thanks to the clause we put in his contract which allowed him to leave at any time in return for the right to sack him at any time. This joke of a contract - Ross's "reward" for coaching a near perfect season and bringing us to the brink of a premiership in 2009 - denied Ross the security of a contract-payout that even the worst coaches in the League (such as Matthew Knights - who was paid $1m for being sacked) enjoy.

True, such a "contract" could only have been written by retards - the same retards who offered Ross a pay-cut in recognition of his efforts in 2010 in coaching us to a draw in the grand final despite Riewoldt being out for most of the season and Collingwood stealing all our IP.

But that was the situation we created. Not only that, we knew Ross was being pursued by another club for unheard of figures. So the onus was on us to act, and act quickly. We didn't. We faffed about.... He left."

[SainterK]

Firstly, I don't like the use of the word retard.

I also know where many would place the blame of Collingwood stealing the Saints IP.

[SaintPav]

have to remember that he still had another year on his contract

Skeptic, this was not a normal contract. As I wrote in another post:

"Those who accuse Ross of being "duplicitous" for talking to St Kilda and Freo at the same time are being silly. Ross was a free agent. He was free to walk at any time, to negotiate with 10 clubs at a time, and to disappear from one negotiation and show up at another. He was free to do so thanks to the clause we put in his contract which allowed him to leave at any time in return for the right to sack him at any time. This joke of a contract - Ross's "reward" for coaching a near perfect season and bringing us to the brink of a premiership in 2009 - denied Ross the security of a contract-payout that even the worst coaches in the League (such as Matthew Knights - who was paid $1m for being sacked) enjoy.

True, such a "contract" could only have been written by retards - the same retards who offered Ross a pay-cut in recognition of his efforts in 2010 in coaching us to a draw in the grand final despite Riewoldt being out for most of the season and Collingwood stealing all our IP.

But that was the situation we created. Not only that, we knew Ross was being pursued by another club for unheard of figures. So the onus was on us to act, and act quickly. We didn't. We faffed about.... He left."

Without seeing the actual contract and talking to MN and the board directly about why they put this type of contact to Ross earlier you don't have the full picture.

I prefer to believe Nathan Burke's version of events.

For what it's worth, I have no idea how MN got this job in the first place. I'm not hearing good things. If MN reneged on a deal done earlier with the President it's time for him to go.

[crippa2sipa]

Firstly, I don't like the use of the word retard.

I also know where many would place the blame of Collingwood stealing the Saints IP.

Thanks SainterK. I hate that word too. And the IP issue can be ignored: it's immaterial. Glad to see your objections are confined to these stylistic and tangential points.

[SaintPav]

Firstly, I don't like the use of the word retard.

I also know where many would place the blame of Collingwood stealing the Saints IP.

Thanks SainterK. I hate that word too. And the IP issue can be ignored: it's immaterial. Glad to see your objections are confined to these stylistic and tangential points.

I'm loving your patronising and sanctimonious posts. Excellent work.

[crippa2sipa]

ESP was totally unaware of even an approach from Fremantle.

Furthermore, ESP were appointed as his sole mangement and were the only party that any "moral" organisation should deal with in terms of the renegotiation of the contract OR in terms of making any gresh offers. Melbourne had the decency to go through ESP. Fremantle did not. It was Lyon's choice (and his alone) to not involve ESP.

Stop taking the Mickey!

You do know that ESP managed Mark Harvey as well as Ross Lyon?
One word from Fremantle to ESP that they were headhunting Lyon and ESP would have been duty bound to tell Harvey and with all confidentiality gone, that would have been the end of the negotiation.
If Melbourne had been in that position they would have approached Lyon directly as well, so please don't pretend this anything to do with Melbourne's "decency" or with Fremantle's not being a "moral organization".
It just adds to the general hysteria and misinformation.

As for Lyon's decision not to involve ESP, it is for the CLIENT and not the manager to decide whether a conflict of interest is a disabling one.
That is a fundamental tenet of sports law.
Lyon had no other choice but to make that call.
And ESP have no legal or moral right to object to it.
Craig Kelly (of ESP) was himself quite up front about this in an interview with the WA media in which he was very sympathetic and understanding of Lyon's position.

[saint66au]

I unreservedly support backfromUSA's version of events. I know him, know his profession..and support 100% that he has the knowledge to make the statements he has

C2S. Unless you have a similar work background..as distinct from just hearing rumours 3rd hand from friends of friends..Im afraid all you are is speculating..and hopefully not just twisting your speculation to suit your constant pro-RL agenda

Your entitled to your opinion of course..but lets not get opinion and fact mixed up eh? Happens far too much

[loris]

I unreservedly support backfromUSA's version of events. I know him, know his profession..and support 100% that he has the knowledge to make the statements he has

C2S. Unless you have a similar work background..as distinct from just hearing rumours 3rd hand from friends of friends..Im afraid all you are is speculating..and hopefully not just twisting your speculation to suit your constant pro-RL agenda

Your entitled to your opinion of course..but lets not get opinion and fact mixed up eh? Happens far too much

+ 1

[SaintPav]

I unreservedly support backfromUSA's version of events. I know him, know his profession..and support 100% that he has the knowledge to make the statements he has

C2S. Unless you have a similar work background..as distinct from just hearing rumours 3rd hand from friends of friends..Im afraid all you are is speculating..and hopefully not just twisting your speculation to suit your constant pro-RL agenda

Your entitled to your opinion of course..but lets not get opinion and fact mixed up eh? Happens far too much

+ 1

+1