New list manager - Reply

[Vazelos]

I work in sport at a football club and i can tell you supporters know 50% of what goes on. Why decision are made, how they are made etc

Internet forums give the average bloke a chance to feel like he is Mike Sheahan, Scott Watters or Westaway for a moment but in reality we are all just supporters reading the news, not making it.

There are some intelligent people on this forum but do not be deluded in thinking your opinion matters or has any relevance in the decisions of our club.

Your membership dollar contributes to the club, and your voice on match day contributes to inspiring the players but other than that keep it in perspective.

I can see how you all get irritated by Big Mart but if everyone spoke the obvious and supported the club blindly then this would be a dull forum.

[BigMart]

Dear oh dear plugger66

At least I finally got some footy commetary, but gee

KPP players not important??? at a time when Structure is at a paramount....one thing in footy will NEVER change....a good big bloke will always be more important than a good small bloke

lets look at each teams MOST important player....and its not always their best natuaral player....its the ones they cant be without...and usually the one the bucks go to....and if they play well, their team wins

Think of the GF as the most recent example

Travis Cloke dominates the first quarter and a half, and single handedly puts collingwood in the picture......the next most important player IMO then was Lonergan, he quelled Cloke who was the most dangerous man on the ground....Then Hawkins won 4 massive contests and hit the scoreboard....

the aim of the game is to score
And still....the Power Fwd is the most dangerous man on the ground.....and his fwd partner
therefore they are the most important players on the ground, and the responsibilty of stopping them becomes just as important....the Key Backs

Midfielders run around the ground getting kicks.......forwards have to beat defenders....

[Spinner]

I work in sport at a football club and i can tell you supporters know 50% of what goes on. Why decision are made, how they are made etc

Internet forums give the average bloke a chance to feel like he is Mike Sheahan, Scott Watters or Westaway for a moment but in reality we are all just supporters reading the news, not making it.

There are some intelligent people on this forum but do not be deluded in thinking your opinion matters or has any relevance in the decisions of our club.

Your membership dollar contributes to the club, and your voice on match day contributes to inspiring the players but other than that keep it in perspective.

I can see how you all get irritated by Big Mart but if everyone spoke the obvious and supported the club blindly then this would be a dull forum.

Thanks guy who works in sport at a football club.

And here I was thinking what I posted on here had an impact to the decisions made at the club. Phew.

Are you able to let me know if the sometimes heated discussions between myself and my old man driving back from the game (wait for it...) in our car, have an input into the decisions made by the club?


People on forums like to talk, discuss and find information. It's what we think - no one is under the illusions it gets an automatic feed into the club boardroom.



Oh but on numerous times the club & media have acknowledged reading this site be is information, views, opinions and the simple and enforced taking down of a thread.

So it's pleasing to know you and your buddies are reading this site and what we say with vested interest.

[joffaboy]

I work in sport at a football club and i can tell you supporters know 50% of what goes on. Why decision are made, how they are made etc

Internet forums give the average bloke a chance to feel like he is Mike Sheahan, Scott Watters or Westaway for a moment but in reality we are all just supporters reading the news, not making it.

There are some intelligent people on this forum but do not be deluded in thinking your opinion matters or has any relevance in the decisions of our club.

Your membership dollar contributes to the club, and your voice on match day contributes to inspiring the players but other than that keep it in perspective.

I can see how you all get irritated by Big Mart but if everyone spoke the obvious and supported the club blindly then this would be a dull forum.

Thanks guy who works in sport at a football club.

And here I was thinking what I posted on here had an impact to the decisions made at the club. Phew.

Are you able to let me know if the sometimes heated discussions between myself and my old man driving back from the game (wait for it...) in our car, have an input into the decisions made by the club?


People on forums like to talk, discuss and find information. It's what we think - no one is under the illusions it gets an automatic feed into the club boardroom.



Oh but on numerous times the club & media have acknowledged reading this site be is information, views, opinions and the simple and enforced taking down of a thread.

So it's pleasing to know you and your buddies are reading this site and what we say with vested interest.

[thirty-seven!?]

Dear oh dear plugger66

At least I finally got some footy commetary, but gee

KPP players not important??? at a time when Structure is at a paramount....one thing in footy will NEVER change....a good big bloke will always be more important than a good small bloke

lets look at each teams MOST important player....and its not always their best natuaral player....its the ones they cant be without...and usually the one the bucks go to....and if they play well, their team wins

Think of the GF as the most recent example

Travis Cloke dominates the first quarter and a half, and single handedly puts collingwood in the picture......the next most important player IMO then was Lonergan, he quelled Cloke who was the most dangerous man on the ground....Then Hawkins won 4 massive contests and hit the scoreboard....

the aim of the game is to score
And still....the Power Fwd is the most dangerous man on the ground.....and his fwd partner
therefore they are the most important players on the ground, and the responsibilty of stopping them becomes just as important....the Key Backs

Midfielders run around the ground getting kicks.......forwards have to beat defenders....

Yet Bartel won the Norm Smith.... With Joel Selwood a close 2nd! Funny that...

And IIRC, I midfielder also won the Brownlow...

What Plugger says is correct - what is the point of recruiting a tall player if that tall player is never going to make it, just for the sake of list balance??

Unfortunately, the 2011 draft was HORRIBLE for tall players. It was a mids draft. Patton was great, but the next best was Tomlinson, who is still somewhat speculative. Elton, who we were repeatedly linked to, is very very average. I was so happy we did overlook him on draft day, and this is coming from someone who has actually watched him!

He reminded me of Steven Gaertner - a great athlete, but his football skills and his general awareness is average. His highlights package might look nice, but you should see some of the other stuff. He made some terrible turnovers in defence throughout the year, had some unco moments where he tripped over himself when running for the ball. And my favourite - flinching and sticking his arms in the air when he got caught in a contested situation... But perhaps that is exactly what we need as he is 197cm....

I don't think so. We will get MUCH more out of Ross. I promise you.

And FWIW, next year is actually a very strong draft for talls (and it is uncompromised), so my guess is our recruiters have an eye on that draft to stock up on talls.

[Dr Spaceman]

Dear oh dear plugger66

At least I finally got some footy commetary, but gee

KPP players not important??? at a time when Structure is at a paramount....one thing in footy will NEVER change....a good big bloke will always be more important than a good small bloke

lets look at each teams MOST important player....and its not always their best natuaral player....its the ones they cant be without...and usually the one the bucks go to....and if they play well, their team wins

Think of the GF as the most recent example

Travis Cloke dominates the first quarter and a half, and single handedly puts collingwood in the picture......the next most important player IMO then was Lonergan, he quelled Cloke who was the most dangerous man on the ground....Then Hawkins won 4 massive contests and hit the scoreboard....

the aim of the game is to score
And still....the Power Fwd is the most dangerous man on the ground.....and his fwd partner
therefore they are the most important players on the ground, and the responsibilty of stopping them becomes just as important....the Key Backs

Midfielders run around the ground getting kicks.......forwards have to beat defenders....

Yet Bartel won the Norm Smith.... With Joel Selwood a close 2nd! Funny that...

And IIRC, I midfielder also won the Brownlow...

What Plugger says is correct - what is the point of recruiting a tall player if that tall player is never going to make it, just for the sake of list balance??

Unfortunately, the 2011 draft was HORRIBLE for tall players. It was a mids draft. Patton was great, but the next best was Tomlinson, who is still somewhat speculative. Elton, who we were repeatedly linked to, is very very average. I was so happy we did overlook him on draft day, and this is coming from someone who has actually watched him!

He reminded me of Steven Gaertner - a great athlete, but his football skills and his general awareness is average. His highlights package might look nice, but you should see some of the other stuff. He made some terrible turnovers in defence throughout the year, had some unco moments where he tripped over himself when running for the ball. And my favourite - flinching and sticking his arms in the air when he got caught in a contested situation... But perhaps that is exactly what we need as he is 197cm....

I don't think so. We will get MUCH more out of Ross. I promise you.

And FWIW, next year is actually a very strong draft for talls (and it is uncompromised), so my guess is our recruiters have an eye on that draft to stock up on talls.

I must say I know nothing about any of these kids thirty-seven.

I must also say that I'm finding your posts about them extremely informative and interesting.

Well done sir

[Middo]

Dear oh dear plugger66

At least I finally got some footy commetary, but gee

KPP players not important??? at a time when Structure is at a paramount....one thing in footy will NEVER change....a good big bloke will always be more important than a good small bloke

lets look at each teams MOST important player....and its not always their best natuaral player....its the ones they cant be without...and usually the one the bucks go to....and if they play well, their team wins

Think of the GF as the most recent example

Travis Cloke dominates the first quarter and a half, and single handedly puts collingwood in the picture......the next most important player IMO then was Lonergan, he quelled Cloke who was the most dangerous man on the ground....Then Hawkins won 4 massive contests and hit the scoreboard....

the aim of the game is to score
And still....the Power Fwd is the most dangerous man on the ground.....and his fwd partner
therefore they are the most important players on the ground, and the responsibilty of stopping them becomes just as important....the Key Backs

Midfielders run around the ground getting kicks.......forwards have to beat defenders....

Yet Bartel won the Norm Smith.... With Joel Selwood a close 2nd! Funny that...

And IIRC, I midfielder also won the Brownlow...

What Plugger says is correct - what is the point of recruiting a tall player if that tall player is never going to make it, just for the sake of list balance??

Unfortunately, the 2011 draft was HORRIBLE for tall players. It was a mids draft. Patton was great, but the next best was Tomlinson, who is still somewhat speculative. Elton, who we were repeatedly linked to, is very very average. I was so happy we did overlook him on draft day, and this is coming from someone who has actually watched him!

He reminded me of Steven Gaertner - a great athlete, but his football skills and his general awareness is average. His highlights package might look nice, but you should see some of the other stuff. He made some terrible turnovers in defence throughout the year, had some unco moments where he tripped over himself when running for the ball. And my favourite - flinching and sticking his arms in the air when he got caught in a contested situation... But perhaps that is exactly what we need as he is 197cm....

I don't think so. We will get MUCH more out of Ross. I promise you.

And FWIW, next year is actually a very strong draft for talls (and it is uncompromised), so my guess is our recruiters have an eye on that draft to stock up on talls.

Funny what abit of logic will do against guess work .. find your posts interesting ....

[thirty-seven!?]

Thanks!

Happy to help!

[Hammer]

Good post 37!
Good to hear another perspective.
Agree we will get more out of Ross, and certainly more from talent than size.

[saintspremiers]

37 what do you know about Lever, as he is our token ruckman selection?

[thirty-seven!?]

37 what do you know about Lever, as he is our token ruckman selection?

Unfortunately, or fortunately, Lever is not so much as ruckman as he is a KPP. He is actually quite talented as far as athletics and ball-use go (sub 3 second 20m sprint for a guy 200cm is ridiculously good), but it was his 2011 form, combined with his inability to cement a position that slid him down the order.

He is quite good with the football in his hands - quite creative and uses the pill well, but struggles a bit to read the play when it's coming at him. Played CHB for the falcons and was actually very impressive - OK one-on-one (his speed helps), but great at rebounding and choosing options. He was then played as a ruckman at state footy and struggled. By his own admission he struggled in the role and his influence on most games was poor. So he slid.

However, with the form shown at CHB, and the fact he has some good skills, creativity and height to play with, I'm pretty happy with his value at pick #60. Still has plenty of work to do, but he will certainly be a player the academy will really do wonders for. First and foremost he needs a position - if they want him to play ruck, then someone needs to teach him the caper. As it was he was thrown in without a huge amount of coaching - it was more, 'the guy is 200cm, surely he can play ruck.'

[Bernard Shakey]

Middo - seriously... your comment is quite silly

every teacher along the way would have come into contact with future success stories, its inevitable....what does that actually mean?

you do realise these kids have to go to a school somewhere???

and by chance a couple ended up in my classes along the line - thats all

Did I say I was at all responsible for any of their successes??..they also have up to 50 other teaching staff who come into contact with them in high school....
Of course over 15 years I have had the pleasure of knowing or teaching many talented kids...as have every other staff member at the same school
Some musically, some academically, some sporting.....is that a surprise?? its just a statistical certainty....

does that make the teachers special??? the school special??? or the kids special???......

Is that anything to brag about???
NO, It is more to do with the kids talent and determination....and the ONLY real thing I pass on is giving them the info to help them pass the subject matter needed...and hopefully forming a positive relationship.....


EVERY teacher in Victoria would have taught multiple success stories along the way, by chance......did they influence their success, maybe....were they responsible.....not likely...

I have also taught many at the other end of the spectrum....kids who are now in gaol, drug addicts, committed suicide....

am I also responsible for that???
if I am taking credit for one, I should then take the blame for the other

Parents can be proud of a kids ultimate success

I am proud of them if they do well in my subject

So really - I am not sure about you point

If you are a school teacher, why do you come on internet forums and make out you know all there is to know about football recruitment? What exactly do you teach? Do you not think your students are aware of your posts here? If so, your credibility in class is shot.

[Middo]

Quote :Big Mart

EVERY teacher in Victoria would have taught multiple success stories along the way, by chance......did they influence their success, maybe....were they responsible.....not likely...



Do they post about it on an internet forum....not likely

[Mackaysaint]

I respect Marto and his opinion.
I think that we all have a tendency to bristle at hearing something contrary to our beliefs / opinions. Marto tells it as he sees it.

I don't doubt that his opinion is more informed than many of ours at times. This is by virtue of the inside information that he gets from association with the kids concerned or through talking to kids who might play with or against the kids concerned.

I feel priveliged that he shares this with us. Thank you Marto.

I too thought that the club should have been looking at recruiting to our needs. I also agree that our needs were to address the lack of depth in our ruck and our KP stocks and we have chronically needed another quality forward or two.

The club did address some of our needs (Wilkes fills a hole immediately while Lever offers a less immediate but a more long term answer). That they did not snap up the KPP's of this year suggests to me that they simply didn't rate them. Markworth might fill our need for depth up forward and Webster looks like a forward/mid in the making.

I also like the fact that the club have returned to finding quality kids with "character" rather than simply recruiting a type of player. In the long term the club is better off having high quality people who better mold to a team ethic. These sort of facts are not often on the bulletin boards, nor can they be seen when watching replays of the championships.

The club is making decisions using a lot more information than is available to us (generally) now that Lyon has left. I tend to defer to them because of this extra knowledge.

[BigMart]

If anyone believes KPP are not worth more than midfielder to a teams structure, either hasnt played much footy or been involved in the game, I would think....probably supporters who take Champion Data/SC points seriously, I dont know.....

Midfielders are great - but there are an abundance of good ones....because there is an abundance of humans 180-188cm tall, so on weight of numbers they grow on trees.....humans who are 192-198cm who are highly skilled are a rare commodity.......

We have one - who has won 5 best and fairests ..... which is why we have been outstanding

Give you an example
The Kangaroos best performed, most consistent player since 2009 is clearly Andrew Swallow....2 * Best and Fairests, Leading almost every stat category
Their Most important player, and the one theywould least prefer to lose is who???????
A 197cm Key Fwd Ruckman who takes CONTESTED marks and brings smaller players into the game

37 - How are you associated with the TAC Cup??

Middo - You begged the question, and needed some clarification....seeing as you tried to intimate that I was bragging....which as I indicated and then explained was RIDICULOUS...

Mackay Saint - Thanks for being objective post...not as easy to have your own opinion, even harder to give it.....if its not the popular one

[PJ]

If anyone believes KPP are not worth more than midfielder to a teams structure, either hasnt played much footy or been involved in the game, I would think....probably supporters who take Champion Data/SC points seriously, I dont know.....

Midfielders are great - but there are an abundance of good ones....because there is an abundance of humans 180-188cm tall, so on weight of numbers they grow on trees.....humans who are 192-198cm who are highly skilled are a rare commodity.......

We have one - who has won 5 best and fairests ..... which is why we have been outstanding

Give you an example
The Kangaroos best performed, most consistent player since 2009 is clearly Andrew Swallow....2 * Best and Fairests, Leading almost every stat category
Their Most important player, and the one theywould least prefer to lose is who???????
A 197cm Key Fwd Ruckman who takes CONTESTED marks and brings smaller players into the game

37 - How are you associated with the TAC Cup??

Middo - You begged the question, and needed some clarification....seeing as you tried to intimate that I was bragging....which as I indicated and then explained was RIDICULOUS...

Mackay Saint - Thanks for being objective post...not as easy to have your own opinion, even harder to give it.....if its not the popular one

You are right in that good/great KPP's are harder to find than mids but in balance you probably need more mids than them. Our mid set up at present is also not that great for reasons I've already stated. Clearly this draft didn't have the KPP's given that all clubs baulked at Frost, Boseley etc so taking Ross is giving us the best outcome in terms of forward planning IMO. Get players for needs only when and if they are there.

Elton looked to have too many unknowns or too much speculation about him - he may end up being a great pick but at present Ross has more certainty.

[matrix]

now i know why i didnt bother coming here for 2 days.........

[HitTheBoundary]

now i know why i didnt bother coming here for 2 days.........

Yep, can't wait for the footy to start. We can then have posts about football, not posts about posters.

[SaintPav]

Dear oh dear plugger66

At least I finally got some footy commetary, but gee

KPP players not important??? at a time when Structure is at a paramount....one thing in footy will NEVER change....a good big bloke will always be more important than a good small bloke

lets look at each teams MOST important player....and its not always their best natuaral player....its the ones they cant be without...and usually the one the bucks go to....and if they play well, their team wins

Think of the GF as the most recent example

Travis Cloke dominates the first quarter and a half, and single handedly puts collingwood in the picture......the next most important player IMO then was Lonergan, he quelled Cloke who was the most dangerous man on the ground....Then Hawkins won 4 massive contests and hit the scoreboard....

the aim of the game is to score
And still....the Power Fwd is the most dangerous man on the ground.....and his fwd partner
therefore they are the most important players on the ground, and the responsibilty of stopping them becomes just as important....the Key Backs

Midfielders run around the ground getting kicks.......forwards have to beat defenders....

Yet Bartel won the Norm Smith.... With Joel Selwood a close 2nd! Funny that...

And IIRC, I midfielder also won the Brownlow...

What Plugger says is correct - what is the point of recruiting a tall player if that tall player is never going to make it, just for the sake of list balance??

Unfortunately, the 2011 draft was HORRIBLE for tall players. It was a mids draft. Patton was great, but the next best was Tomlinson, who is still somewhat speculative. Elton, who we were repeatedly linked to, is very very average. I was so happy we did overlook him on draft day, and this is coming from someone who has actually watched him!

He reminded me of Steven Gaertner - a great athlete, but his football skills and his general awareness is average. His highlights package might look nice, but you should see some of the other stuff. He made some terrible turnovers in defence throughout the year, had some unco moments where he tripped over himself when running for the ball. And my favourite - flinching and sticking his arms in the air when he got caught in a contested situation... But perhaps that is exactly what we need as he is 197cm....

I don't think so. We will get MUCH more out of Ross. I promise you.

And FWIW, next year is actually a very strong draft for talls (and it is uncompromised), so my guess is our recruiters have an eye on that draft to stock up on talls.

I must say I know nothing about any of these kids thirty-seven.

I must also say that I'm finding your posts about them extremely informative and interesting.

Well done sir

+1

[plugger66]

Dear oh dear plugger66

At least I finally got some footy commetary, but gee

KPP players not important??? at a time when Structure is at a paramount....one thing in footy will NEVER change....a good big bloke will always be more important than a good small bloke

lets look at each teams MOST important player....and its not always their best natuaral player....its the ones they cant be without...and usually the one the bucks go to....and if they play well, their team wins

Think of the GF as the most recent example

Travis Cloke dominates the first quarter and a half, and single handedly puts collingwood in the picture......the next most important player IMO then was Lonergan, he quelled Cloke who was the most dangerous man on the ground....Then Hawkins won 4 massive contests and hit the scoreboard....

the aim of the game is to score
And still....the Power Fwd is the most dangerous man on the ground.....and his fwd partner
therefore they are the most important players on the ground, and the responsibilty of stopping them becomes just as important....the Key Backs

Midfielders run around the ground getting kicks.......forwards have to beat defenders....

Condescending and also wrong. Also selective in what you write. When did I say KPP werent important? I said the game is being decided more and more by mids but you go on about something never even said. You also dont address the fact that balance is only important if they can play senior footy. We had balance last year on the list but the fact was 4 of those talls now gone played a total of 6 games between them. That doesnt make the side balanced just the list.

Then you go on about GF's. Should I mention if it wasnt for Lenny and BJ we wouldnt have drawn the first GF in 2010 and if wasnt for Pendles and Sidebottom we would have won the first GF. The selective stuff proves sweet FA.

Now tell me how team balance helped us this year.

[matrix]

[BigMart]

Condescending - now you wouldnt know anything about that now, would you....

The whole point of LIST management is about 44 players....not 22 or even 30....and a successful club at AFL level is successful in three areas

Off Field success
On Field success
Player Development

I would just has it a guess that on of the main reasons why Scott Watters was given the job, would be his focus on the bottom of the list (the 'Academy') .... an area of the list that has been completely neglected (both in recruiting and development) and something that will only bite us hard when our Core Seniors from the 2000-2002 draft bonanzas retire.....then will we see the absolute incompetance from 2005-2009.....in recruiting and 2007-2011 in terms of development...

Just maybe one of those talls (Walsh/Lynch) may have got an opportunity under another regime....will watch with interest to see how their 2012 pans out...

Short sighted focus on the top of the list (those who need the least coaching) will hinder future success.....

Collingwood, Carlton approach 2010
Hawthorn, WCE and Geelong in 2011

will ensure sustained success and future flags

I think Essendon, Richmond, Melbourne will follow suit

[The Redeemer]

What gets me BM is that you criticize our picks and say we should have picked KPP without seeing many if any of these guys play. If you had similar knowledge to our recruiters then your opinion carries some or a lot of weight but an opinion without knowledge isnt an opinion, its just writing words that mean jack and should be shot down. If I said IMO Plugger was a terrible footballer it is in my opinion but it is also crap and I should be asked for reason or shot down with stats to prove I am talking crap.

When you give stats on our players drafted you give us stats that you think prove you are right. If others find stats just prove you may not be right then that is fine.

Lets face it no one knows on here what the clubs strategy was but for example pick one most on here thought we would take Elton, the club obviously thought Elton will not be better for us in the long term than Ross so they took him. How can we say they are right or wrong without anyone really seeing them play before the draft and obviously no one including the club see them play at the higher level.


Another thing on the KPP is as you have pointed out we have lost 5 this year. Of those 5, 3 werent good enough so they were let go, one we have no idea about yet and one is at Freo and many still say he isnt good enough. That suggests we picked them up but were wasted picks. Just maybe our people thought the same would have happened with the talls in the draft this year. It is a sign of madness doing the same thing over and over again and get the same poor result.

As the saying goes opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one but some need to be flushed down the shitter as soon as they are given.

your a wanka. you spelt critisize rong.

[joffaboy]

Hard to believe that anyone would argue that a good tall is just as or more important than a good small.

However what happens when the talls on the table aren't good??

Do we select a player like Elton who may be tall, but on balance the recruiters think that Ross is a better prospect?

Will we be seeing a triumphalist thread in two years bemoaning the fact that Elton in fact did come good and Ross, while playing midfield isn't as good?

Or will it be the other way around? Elton struggling while Ross is playing consistent seniors football?

Why choose a player just because he is taller than another for balance when that player may never make it? the team would still have the same problem wouldn't it?

Geartner was tall, Brooks was tall, Stone and Patterson were tall.

Are they on our list?

Stanley is tall, so isArcher, but all the talk about our youth is Sipposs, Cripps, Ledger, Crocker.

talls are important, but if there is none that are deemed any good why waste a pick.

Leverand Wilkes are tall BTW.

[saintspremiers]

All true JB, but we need a few talls to play ruck.

Unfortunate but that's the reality.

Blake will be pretty much finished after 2012 and Kosi not long after.

That leaves Ben and hopefully Stanley.