Why I wasn't disappointed when Lyon left

[BigMart]

our list (senior team) was pretty strong

All Australians he coached in his time at AStK

Hayes - 2
Riewoldt - 5
Montagna - 2
Ball
Milne
Fisher - 2
Dal Santo - 3
Gardiner
King

[skeptic]

sorry guys... got quite the stutter today

deleted

[skeptic]

A good coach will not drop a player to the VFL to regain form unless you were a coach in the 1970s. That could actually make your form worse given the big difference in both leagues.

A good coach will manafacture a way to bring a player into a game by giving him a very specific and simple role or matchup so the player can get his confidence back. They are a bit more creative these days.

Umm yeah but he didn't do that

Gilbert had a very average year.

Factor in what we know he is capable of as a player and he actually had a woeful year by his standards

Sometimes it's ok to send a player back to the 2s where the pace is slower in order to get them to concentrate on improving the things that they actually do very well... in Sam's case getting to contests marking, creating run.
Once he improves in those areas (and feels the improvement) put him back into the team to do what he does back.

Stephen Milne was dropped several times in the middle of his career and he often responded by kicking bags and coming right back into the team.


It's detrimental IMO to let a player flounder in the seniors... they play bad, lose confidence, endure ridicule etc and feel like they let the team down.

Worse thing we ever did to Raph Clarke was play him (I think in the GT era) 5-6 games in a row straight back from injury when he was really out of sorts...
he earned his current reputation largely on the back of that stint and goodness knows what it actually did for his confidence. He came to us as an attacking midfielder... it's only really the last 2 and a bit years he's ever looked to take the game on again.

St. Lenny - for mine I guess I've been a fan of a guy that simply stops an opponent and does nothing else... never really thought Attard was every much good and personally I preferred Birss. Just don't see how unless ur a KP back how u can say a player that gets 5 disposals a game can count as a win... even if it means Judd only got 10... Judd still got more

My point was never that Birss, Schwarze and Brooks were the missing ingredient or something special etc but all of their demises reeked of poor management to me.
Brook vs Clarke - what did we gain from Matty Clarke? Brooks may have been rubbish but he had more upside.
Schwarze jsut cut for nothing like that... where was the team benefit... TS was an ok player... none of us really saw it coming

Interesting point u made on Cousins - is that confirmed?

Maguire? Who brought him up?

JB are you arguing that Ross Lyon could not have done a single thing better in his time at the club?


Inkersaint - you make fair points. You and I have had the argument about McQualter a few times b4 - u say statiscally he was the best option we had for that positon, I reckon we could have been more creative earlier and done something different - we both seem to disagree on the value of his contribution... will pbly just have to agree to disagree on that one

On Gwilt... I know he wasn't an established player in 09... as a defensive forward however I think he would have offered more than Dempster (both are est in my best 22 now - not then though)

[joffaboy]

JB are you arguing that Ross Lyon could not have done a single thing better in his time at the club?

No I have never said that.

However it has to be looked at in context.

Lyon coached to give us a shot at the flag which he did very successfully.

One of the consequences of 19 straight wins in 09 and trying to cobble together enough wins in 10 once Riewoldt went down was that he didn't develop the youngsters.

A second consequence is that he drafted recycled role players for his defensive game plan.

Both of those strategies were ALWAYS going to have a down side later.

With the greatest of hindsight since we came away empty handed, it can be critisised as the wrong way to go.

in 2009 and 2010 when we were in place for a flag at the 20 minute marks of both Grand Finals, I am sure the wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth about all of Lyonds "failings" would not have even been a whisper.

Look BECUASE of the consequences of Lyons policies in trying rto win a flag in 2009 and 2010 I am not unhappy we have gone in a completely new direction.

I think after the extreme dissapointment of 2009 and then 2010 and the horrible off season last year and a dissapointing 2012 the fresh start is something to look forward to.

I just dont like the type of revisionism of some. Of course there were going to be consequences to the strategy used, but to paint it as a complete negative is sither being willfully negligent or plain ignorant of where it almost took us - to that yearned for 2nd flag.

[thejiggingsaint]

Joofaboys right!!! time to look FORWARD!!!!

[Moccha]

JB are you arguing that Ross Lyon could not have done a single thing better in his time at the club?

No I have never said that.

However it has to be looked at in context.

Lyon coached to give us a shot at the flag which he did very successfully.

One of the consequences of 19 straight wins in 09 and trying to cobble together enough wins in 10 once Riewoldt went down was that he didn't develop the youngsters.

A second consequence is that he drafted recycled role players for his defensive game plan.

Both of those strategies were ALWAYS going to have a down side later.

With the greatest of hindsight since we came away empty handed, it can be critisised as the wrong way to go.

in 2009 and 2010 when we were in place for a flag at the 20 minute marks of both Grand Finals, I am sure the wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth about all of Lyonds "failings" would not have even been a whisper.

Look BECUASE of the consequences of Lyons policies in trying rto win a flag in 2009 and 2010 I am not unhappy we have gone in a completely new direction.

I think after the extreme dissapointment of 2009 and then 2010 and the horrible off season last year and a dissapointing 2012 the fresh start is something to look forward to.

I just dont like the type of revisionism of some. Of course there were going to be consequences to the strategy used, but to paint it as a complete negative is sither being willfully negligent or plain ignorant of where it almost took us - to that yearned for 2nd flag.

Are you pre empting something?

[thejiggingsaint]

JAYsus!!!! hold that membership renewal!!!!

[InkerSaint]

JB are you arguing that Ross Lyon could not have done a single thing better in his time at the club?

No I have never said that.

However it has to be looked at in context.

Lyon coached to give us a shot at the flag which he did very successfully.

One of the consequences of 19 straight wins in 09 and trying to cobble together enough wins in 10 once Riewoldt went down was that he didn't develop the youngsters.

A second consequence is that he drafted recycled role players for his defensive game plan.

Both of those strategies were ALWAYS going to have a down side later.

With the greatest of hindsight since we came away empty handed, it can be critisised as the wrong way to go.

in 2009 and 2010 when we were in place for a flag at the 20 minute marks of both Grand Finals, I am sure the wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth about all of Lyonds "failings" would not have even been a whisper.

Look BECUASE of the consequences of Lyons policies in trying rto win a flag in 2009 and 2010 I am not unhappy we have gone in a completely new direction.

I think after the extreme dissapointment of 2009 and then 2010 and the horrible off season last year and a dissapointing 2012 the fresh start is something to look forward to.

I just dont like the type of revisionism of some. Of course there were going to be consequences to the strategy used, but to paint it as a complete negative is sither being willfully negligent or plain ignorant of where it almost took us - to that yearned for 2nd flag.

Obviously a disappointing 2011, but otherwise +1 word for word.

We always knew the top-up strategy was going to mean some pain later on. All we are left with now are what-ifs.

[BigMart]

It is proven that another game style/development approach would not have got us to those GF's???

It will never be known

What we cannot say though is that we got to those GF's because of Ross Lyon.....25 players had a fair bit to do with it....especially the club leaders I mentioned earlier in the thread who were amongst the AFL elite in their prime condition...

Lyon is a Great match day coach....and a good leader..

he can make great players play well together as team and average players play well within their limitations

His yet to prove he can develop young players.....into champions

Grant Thomas

also a good leader.....and a great developer....by empowering young players

BUT was an average match day coach


Coaches cannot be perfect.....just like players...they have weaknesses

[gringo]

My first inkling into the guy was after Jayden Attard was our best player for the year as a tagger did his knee and got delisted. mean spirited at best.

[satchmo]

My first inkling into the guy was after Jayden Attard was our best player for the year as a tagger did his knee and got delisted. mean spirited at best.

Yeah, that bugged me a little too. Sure it's a business, but it wouldn't inspire confidence in your employer.

[skeptic]

JB are you arguing that Ross Lyon could not have done a single thing better in his time at the club?

No I have never said that.

However it has to be looked at in context.

Lyon coached to give us a shot at the flag which he did very successfully.

One of the consequences of 19 straight wins in 09 and trying to cobble together enough wins in 10 once Riewoldt went down was that he didn't develop the youngsters.

A second consequence is that he drafted recycled role players for his defensive game plan.

Both of those strategies were ALWAYS going to have a down side later.

With the greatest of hindsight since we came away empty handed, it can be critisised as the wrong way to go.

in 2009 and 2010 when we were in place for a flag at the 20 minute marks of both Grand Finals, I am sure the wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth about all of Lyonds "failings" would not have even been a whisper.

Look BECUASE of the consequences of Lyons policies in trying rto win a flag in 2009 and 2010 I am not unhappy we have gone in a completely new direction.

I think after the extreme dissapointment of 2009 and then 2010 and the horrible off season last year and a dissapointing 2012 the fresh start is something to look forward to.

I just dont like the type of revisionism of some. Of course there were going to be consequences to the strategy used, but to paint it as a complete negative is sither being willfully negligent or plain ignorant of where it almost took us - to that yearned for 2nd flag.

I see what you're saying amd ur right but your post is kind of out of context to the original post

forgive me if I've missed something here...

I posted IMO that RL made inconsistent to poor decisions RE the types of players he picks and perseveres with...
most notably perservering with those out of form
not persevering with guys that showed more potential
Odd selections to play unfamiliar roles

it's ont always been a case of he's played older players at the expense of younger ones as your post has implied

[joffaboy]

fair enough skeptic.

Not a critisism of your view BTW, more a combination of revisionism from a number of posters who critisise Lyon after the fact, when blind freddy could see that Lyon was coaching for the now (with almost glorious consequences) and the problems would occur in the future (which is upon us).

cheers.

[BigMart]

Not everyone critisised after the fact...

But it was you and the obvious others that shot down any critisism of Lyon whilst he was in office.....

Now your saying those critisisms were on the money.... and blind freddy could see them...contradictory

But we werent allowed to post them at the time....

Some people have remained consistent on Lyon after his departure

You are not one of the Joffa.....at least p66 has not wavered in his support...

And yes he ALMOST won us 2 flags....correct

but what is also a correct statement......He NEVER won us a flag

[stinger]

This will be my last RL thread as we're all embracing our new direction but as it's the off season... and lets be honest because I want to share this, Lyon quitting really didn't faze me in the slightest.

Never mind all the underhanded stuff, the knifing of Harvey, lack of loyalty to the Saints etc and yes I'll acknowledge that I did enjoy the near winning of grandfinals...

There was a pattern of bizarre decision making that became evident very early in his tenure and IMO remained throughout - during 09-10 we glossed over it coz we were winning but it always really frustrated.

The guy had a very bizarre, inconsistent and IMO poor approach to list management/development all the way through his career with us.

Now forgive me if my dates are a bit mixed up as I'm doing this from memory

It started in late 2006 early 2007 when right at the end of the cut off, he axed Troy Schwarze. The rumour mill had it that Troy returned from the off season not meeting his fitness requirements and was made an example of.
Now Troy was never a super star but he was a middle tear player entering his physical prime - medium sized player with reasonable disposal and had been developing ok. We lost him for nothing.
Whilst I got the idea of making a statement, I thought to myself at the time... surely he could have made a statement w/o axing him and developed him further- it wasn't something that worked in our best interest IMO - he could have been a handy medium sized forward.

Then there was the 2007 season. I understood the purpose of getting Matty Clarke. I can't for the life of me see the rational behind playing an ageing ruck for 15 odd mediocre games in a team that missed the finals whilst not giving Barry Brooks a shot at all. He was playing ok as a forward and looked ok b4 he did his knee. I doubt he would have made it but surely it was worth seeing what he could do.

Then there was the logic in keeping Attard ahead of Shane Birss.
I never got it. Attard was a ok tagger that never got the ball - Shane was an average tagger that played some good games damaging the opposition on the offensive. Of the 2 players... he chose to sack the inconsistent developing player that played a few good games ahead of the consistently average Attard.
Attard was then sacked a year later clearly not looking up to it.

Then we get to 2009

The Ben Cousins thing has been done to death but I can't for the life of me see how it wasn't a risk worth taking (no need to argue this one as I see the opposing views)... personally think this cost us a GF.
And personally I think it was RL's call as IMO (and it's only my opinion) the board didn't get involved too much in on coaching matters and RL was clearly a control freak.

The team selection for the Grandfinal was poor.
Gardiner and King were both tired and out of form - it was stupid playing both of them.
A brave coach would have either dropped one for an additional midfielder and have Blake or Kosi pinch hit - or they would have played McEvoy more during the season and dropped one to alternate with McEvoy.

Dropping Eddy for Demptser made no sense - we lost a running forward that was playing ok for Sean who was a nothing player at the time. I'd understand if they brought Sean in as a tagger or a back e.g. take Johnson whilst Baker moved to Chapman... but he played as a forward... and he sucked at it. He's not a forward.
IMO a brave coach would have played Gwilt as a forward as he actually had the tools for a forward or he should have stayed with Eddy who was more of a runner.

That move made even less sense when you factor in that Ball barely played after half-time - essentially we were down 2 midfielders after half time.
And RL should take full responsibility for Ball. There's no way he simply did not notice. I could understand a plan whereby he played Ball for a half and then replaced him with a runner as he tired... but surely that plan has to change when Ball is nearly BOG in the 1st half.

Andrew Lovett - I get why we drafted him... but right from the start it was clear that we payed WAY over the odds for him. He was worth a 2nd round pick tops. We traded a first round pick for a lazy player with a bad attitude... very poor deal.

Andrew McQualter 2010 - how anyone could continue to justify his continued selection in the 2nd half of the season will forever msytify me... he was consistently hopeless and ineffective and he should have been dropped much much earlier and any number of kids should have been played ahead of him. Granted Armitage and Steven were injured late in the year but heck even Miles could have come in as a back and Goddard could have gone forward... anything would have worked better.

Luke Miles... played 2 games in late 2010 - one very good - one mediocre... then delisted.

Rob Eddy - good enough to play 2 grandfinals - then delisted

Adam Pattison - barely given a chance - did ok with very limited opportunities - cut with no replacement in mind up forward or in the ruck

2011
RL says we need a forward... Riewoldt consistently beaten and battered yet our Sandy forwards in Walsh, Cahill and Johnson, all of who played patches of good footy played a total of 1 game between them

Gilbert keeps his spot for nearly the entire season despite being woefully out of form - what's the harm in dropping him to the 2s for a few weeks, give a kid a go and let Sam rebuild his confidence.

Jason Blake has a game up forward

Our choice of sub...

Too much weirdness for my liking - IMO needed to let others make decisions too

good post skeptic.......for the record troy won sunkick one year.....he should have been persevered with as you say....

[stinger]

It is proven that another game style/development approach would not have got us to those GF's???

It will never be known

What we cannot say though is that we got to those GF's because of Ross Lyon.....25 players had a fair bit to do with it....especially the club leaders I mentioned earlier in the thread who were amongst the AFL elite in their prime condition...

Lyon is a Great match day coach....and a good leader..

he can make great players play well together as team and average players play well within their limitations

His yet to prove he can develop young players.....into champions

Grant Thomas

also a good leader.....and a great developer....by empowering young players

BUT was an average match day coach


Coaches cannot be perfect.....just like players...they have weaknesses

i actually believe that judas cost us two flags rather than "gee he got us to two grand finals which he almost won"

and yes the prick did have weaknesses ...which are more obvious as the days pass.....

[Gracie]

I agree with the bizarre decision making especially the latest to go to Freo. Warnings bells should be ringing for RL's closest - a middle aged, workaholic/perfectionist experiencing financial, family and workplace stress/tragedy and he takes himself and his family away from their supports and puts even greater expectations on himself. Crazy - no matter what they are paying.

[plugger66]

It is proven that another game style/development approach would not have got us to those GF's???

It will never be known

What we cannot say though is that we got to those GF's because of Ross Lyon.....25 players had a fair bit to do with it....especially the club leaders I mentioned earlier in the thread who were amongst the AFL elite in their prime condition...

Lyon is a Great match day coach....and a good leader..

he can make great players play well together as team and average players play well within their limitations

His yet to prove he can develop young players.....into champions

Grant Thomas

also a good leader.....and a great developer....by empowering young players

BUT was an average match day coach


Coaches cannot be perfect.....just like players...they have weaknesses

i actually believe that judas cost us two flags rather than "gee he got us to two grand finals which he almost won"

and yes the prick did have weaknesses ...which are more obvious as the days pass.....

The more the write the less football knowledge you show. And the more you try and rewrite history.

[The Redeemer]

My first inkling into the guy was after Jayden Attard was our best player for the year as a tagger did his knee and got delisted. mean spirited at best.

Attard was awful though...he was a below average player who was in a team that was moving from all out attack to defence without an idea of how to go about it...anyone or anything could have stood out...hell fiora had a good year in 2öö7 and we all know how that turned out

[The Redeemer]

My first inkling into the guy was after Jayden Attard was our best player for the year as a tagger did his knee and got delisted. mean spirited at best.

Attard was awful though...he was a below average player who was in a team that was moving from all out attack to defence without an idea of how to go about it...anyone or anything could have stood out...hell fiora had a good year in 2öö7 and we all know how that turned out

[Scollop]

It is proven that another game style/development approach would not have got us to those GF's???

It will never be known

What we cannot say though is that we got to those GF's because of Ross Lyon.....25 players had a fair bit to do with it....especially the club leaders I mentioned earlier in the thread who were amongst the AFL elite in their prime condition...

Lyon is a Great match day coach....and a good leader..

he can make great players play well together as team and average players play well within their limitations

His yet to prove he can develop young players.....into champions

Grant Thomas

also a good leader.....and a great developer....by empowering young players

BUT was an average match day coach


Coaches cannot be perfect.....just like players...they have weaknesses

i actually believe that judas cost us two flags rather than "gee he got us to two grand finals which he almost won"

and yes the prick did have weaknesses ...which are more obvious as the days pass.....

The more the write the less football knowledge you show. And the more you try and rewrite history.

If you weren't down right stupid or a fair dinkum pessimist you could see where the team was heading in 2009. There was a chorus of neutral footy fans and plenty of us Saints fans that have half a footy brain that found it perplexing that Lyon didn't rotate, or manage (or rest or whatever you want to call it) some of our stars when we were 15 or 16 zip!!! I agree that Lyon played his part in the success that we had in 2009 and 2010 with the vast bulk of a core playing group that he had inherited, but why oh why did we not have a stronger finals series and emulate the form that we had throughout such a dominant year?? It was a lost opportunity and the buck always stops with the head coach -period.

As for the comment by P66, well...I think the more the the the, the the the you the...sorry we where we...oh yeah...you said history right?? I understood that bit.

History remembers men for what they have achieved...not what they almost achieved. Don't worry, it won't be too long before history passes final judgement on Ross as a leader of men and on his legacy as an AFL coach.

[plugger66]

It is proven that another game style/development approach would not have got us to those GF's???

It will never be known

What we cannot say though is that we got to those GF's because of Ross Lyon.....25 players had a fair bit to do with it....especially the club leaders I mentioned earlier in the thread who were amongst the AFL elite in their prime condition...

Lyon is a Great match day coach....and a good leader..

he can make great players play well together as team and average players play well within their limitations

His yet to prove he can develop young players.....into champions

Grant Thomas

also a good leader.....and a great developer....by empowering young players

BUT was an average match day coach


Coaches cannot be perfect.....just like players...they have weaknesses

i actually believe that judas cost us two flags rather than "gee he got us to two grand finals which he almost won"

and yes the prick did have weaknesses ...which are more obvious as the days pass.....

The more the write the less football knowledge you show. And the more you try and rewrite history.

If you weren't down right stupid or a fair dinkum pessimist you could see where the team was heading in 2009. There was a chorus of neutral footy fans and plenty of us Saints fans that have half a footy brain that found it perplexing that Lyon didn't rotate, or manage (or rest or whatever you want to call it) some of our stars when we were 15 or 16 zip!!! I agree that Lyon played his part in the success that we had in 2009 and 2010 with the vast bulk of a core playing group that he had inherited, but why oh why did we not have a stronger finals series and emulate the form that we had throughout such a dominant year?? It was a lost opportunity and the buck always stops with the head coach -period.

As for the comment by P66, well...I think the more the the the, the the the you the...sorry we where we...oh yeah...you said history right?? I understood that bit.

History remembers men for what they have achieved...not what they almost achieved. Don't worry, it won't be too long before history passes final judgement on Ross as a leader of men and on his legacy as an AFL coach.

I get it I am a pessimist because I thought RL coached us to win a flag. Yes this is a side that has won one in 114 years. He decided that our players had to play a certain way due to deficiencies and he also decided that experienced players was the way to go. Yes we lost 2 GF so you could say he was wrong but unlike some here I thought the club gave us a great ride in those 2 years. Doing that was always going to set the club back a bit but after a 114 years of trying I am sorry I think it was worth the punt.

Then we get the hindsighters who always said how good RL was and wouldnt hear a word of criticism who now in hindsight somehow think RL completely stuffed up our club. If these hindsighters had any footy knowledge they would have seen this coming but alas they dont have the knowledge and wait until RL leaves to express their criticism.

Now can you tell us all those draft picks we missed under RL due to drafting experienced players?

[Scollop]

Sorry P66, that first sentence in my post wasn't personally directed at you.

I used the word 'you' in the first line but I was referring to anyone really.

In fact you alluded to the great ride and where it was taking us and that's exactly my message...if we were clearly going to be a contender at the pointy end, he needed some X factor or some surprises or he needed to gamble with rotating/resting more of the stars in the latter rounds of Home and Away... you said; "I think it was worth the punt."

Well, I say Lyon didn't think it was worth the punt...he went the stock standard conservative predictable route and he didn't have the courage to throw some youth into the finals mix like Steven in 2009 or Armo in 2010.

[felix]

Lyon didnt want the Saints to progress in the finals thats why he coached terribly against the swans , it would have made it harder to walk away if we won that one , Lyon manipulated the system to benefit his back pocket , in effect he cheated

[SaintPav]

Lyon didnt want the Saints to progress in the finals thats why he coached terribly against the swans , it would have made it harder to walk away if we won that one , Lyon manipulated the system to benefit his back pocket , in effect he cheated

Good first post.