Why I wasn't disappointed when Lyon left

[skeptic]

This will be my last RL thread as we're all embracing our new direction but as it's the off season... and lets be honest because I want to share this, Lyon quitting really didn't faze me in the slightest.

Never mind all the underhanded stuff, the knifing of Harvey, lack of loyalty to the Saints etc and yes I'll acknowledge that I did enjoy the near winning of grandfinals...

There was a pattern of bizarre decision making that became evident very early in his tenure and IMO remained throughout - during 09-10 we glossed over it coz we were winning but it always really frustrated.

The guy had a very bizarre, inconsistent and IMO poor approach to list management/development all the way through his career with us.

Now forgive me if my dates are a bit mixed up as I'm doing this from memory

It started in late 2006 early 2007 when right at the end of the cut off, he axed Troy Schwarze. The rumour mill had it that Troy returned from the off season not meeting his fitness requirements and was made an example of.
Now Troy was never a super star but he was a middle tear player entering his physical prime - medium sized player with reasonable disposal and had been developing ok. We lost him for nothing.
Whilst I got the idea of making a statement, I thought to myself at the time... surely he could have made a statement w/o axing him and developed him further- it wasn't something that worked in our best interest IMO - he could have been a handy medium sized forward.

Then there was the 2007 season. I understood the purpose of getting Matty Clarke. I can't for the life of me see the rational behind playing an ageing ruck for 15 odd mediocre games in a team that missed the finals whilst not giving Barry Brooks a shot at all. He was playing ok as a forward and looked ok b4 he did his knee. I doubt he would have made it but surely it was worth seeing what he could do.

Then there was the logic in keeping Attard ahead of Shane Birss.
I never got it. Attard was a ok tagger that never got the ball - Shane was an average tagger that played some good games damaging the opposition on the offensive. Of the 2 players... he chose to sack the inconsistent developing player that played a few good games ahead of the consistently average Attard.
Attard was then sacked a year later clearly not looking up to it.

Then we get to 2009

The Ben Cousins thing has been done to death but I can't for the life of me see how it wasn't a risk worth taking (no need to argue this one as I see the opposing views)... personally think this cost us a GF.
And personally I think it was RL's call as IMO (and it's only my opinion) the board didn't get involved too much in on coaching matters and RL was clearly a control freak.

The team selection for the Grandfinal was poor.
Gardiner and King were both tired and out of form - it was stupid playing both of them.
A brave coach would have either dropped one for an additional midfielder and have Blake or Kosi pinch hit - or they would have played McEvoy more during the season and dropped one to alternate with McEvoy.

Dropping Eddy for Demptser made no sense - we lost a running forward that was playing ok for Sean who was a nothing player at the time. I'd understand if they brought Sean in as a tagger or a back e.g. take Johnson whilst Baker moved to Chapman... but he played as a forward... and he sucked at it. He's not a forward.
IMO a brave coach would have played Gwilt as a forward as he actually had the tools for a forward or he should have stayed with Eddy who was more of a runner.

That move made even less sense when you factor in that Ball barely played after half-time - essentially we were down 2 midfielders after half time.
And RL should take full responsibility for Ball. There's no way he simply did not notice. I could understand a plan whereby he played Ball for a half and then replaced him with a runner as he tired... but surely that plan has to change when Ball is nearly BOG in the 1st half.

Andrew Lovett - I get why we drafted him... but right from the start it was clear that we payed WAY over the odds for him. He was worth a 2nd round pick tops. We traded a first round pick for a lazy player with a bad attitude... very poor deal.

Andrew McQualter 2010 - how anyone could continue to justify his continued selection in the 2nd half of the season will forever msytify me... he was consistently hopeless and ineffective and he should have been dropped much much earlier and any number of kids should have been played ahead of him. Granted Armitage and Steven were injured late in the year but heck even Miles could have come in as a back and Goddard could have gone forward... anything would have worked better.

Luke Miles... played 2 games in late 2010 - one very good - one mediocre... then delisted.

Rob Eddy - good enough to play 2 grandfinals - then delisted

Adam Pattison - barely given a chance - did ok with very limited opportunities - cut with no replacement in mind up forward or in the ruck

2011
RL says we need a forward... Riewoldt consistently beaten and battered yet our Sandy forwards in Walsh, Cahill and Johnson, all of who played patches of good footy played a total of 1 game between them

Gilbert keeps his spot for nearly the entire season despite being woefully out of form - what's the harm in dropping him to the 2s for a few weeks, give a kid a go and let Sam rebuild his confidence.

Jason Blake has a game up forward

Our choice of sub...

Too much weirdness for my liking - IMO needed to let others make decisions too

[crippa2sipa]

This will be my last RL thread as we're all embracing our new direction but as it's the off season... and lets be honest because I want to share this, Lyon quitting really didn't faze me in the slightest.

Never mind all the underhanded stuff, the knifing of Harvey, lack of loyalty to the Saints etc and yes I'll acknowledge that I did enjoy the near winning of grandfinals...

There was a pattern of bizarre decision making that became evident very early in his tenure and IMO remained throughout - during 09-10 we glossed over it coz we were winning but it always really frustrated.

The guy had a very bizarre, inconsistent and IMO poor approach to list management/development all the way through his career with us.

Now forgive me if my dates are a bit mixed up as I'm doing this from memory

It started in late 2006 early 2007 when right at the end of the cut off, he axed Troy Schwarze. The rumour mill had it that Troy returned from the off season not meeting his fitness requirements and was made an example of.
Now Troy was never a super star but he was a middle tear player entering his physical prime - medium sized player with reasonable disposal and had been developing ok. We lost him for nothing.
Whilst I got the idea of making a statement, I thought to myself at the time... surely he could have made a statement w/o axing him and developed him further- it wasn't something that worked in our best interest IMO - he could have been a handy medium sized forward.

Then there was the 2007 season. I understood the purpose of getting Matty Clarke. I can't for the life of me see the rational behind playing an ageing ruck for 15 odd mediocre games in a team that missed the finals whilst not giving Barry Brooks a shot at all. He was playing ok as a forward and looked ok b4 he did his knee. I doubt he would have made it but surely it was worth seeing what he could do.

Then there was the logic in keeping Attard ahead of Shane Birss.
I never got it. Attard was a ok tagger that never got the ball - Shane was an average tagger that played some good games damaging the opposition on the offensive. Of the 2 players... he chose to sack the inconsistent developing player that played a few good games ahead of the consistently average Attard.
Attard was then sacked a year later clearly not looking up to it.

Then we get to 2009

The Ben Cousins thing has been done to death but I can't for the life of me see how it wasn't a risk worth taking (no need to argue this one as I see the opposing views)... personally think this cost us a GF.
And personally I think it was RL's call as IMO (and it's only my opinion) the board didn't get involved too much in on coaching matters and RL was clearly a control freak.

The team selection for the Grandfinal was poor.
Gardiner and King were both tired and out of form - it was stupid playing both of them.
A brave coach would have either dropped one for an additional midfielder and have Blake or Kosi pinch hit - or they would have played McEvoy more during the season and dropped one to alternate with McEvoy.

Dropping Eddy for Demptser made no sense - we lost a running forward that was playing ok for Sean who was a nothing player at the time. I'd understand if they brought Sean in as a tagger or a back e.g. take Johnson whilst Baker moved to Chapman... but he played as a forward... and he sucked at it. He's not a forward.
IMO a brave coach would have played Gwilt as a forward as he actually had the tools for a forward or he should have stayed with Eddy who was more of a runner.

That move made even less sense when you factor in that Ball barely played after half-time - essentially we were down 2 midfielders after half time.
And RL should take full responsibility for Ball. There's no way he simply did not notice. I could understand a plan whereby he played Ball for a half and then replaced him with a runner as he tired... but surely that plan has to change when Ball is nearly BOG in the 1st half.

Andrew Lovett - I get why we drafted him... but right from the start it was clear that we payed WAY over the odds for him. He was worth a 2nd round pick tops. We traded a first round pick for a lazy player with a bad attitude... very poor deal.

Andrew McQualter 2010 - how anyone could continue to justify his continued selection in the 2nd half of the season will forever msytify me... he was consistently hopeless and ineffective and he should have been dropped much much earlier and any number of kids should have been played ahead of him. Granted Armitage and Steven were injured late in the year but heck even Miles could have come in as a back and Goddard could have gone forward... anything would have worked better.

Luke Miles... played 2 games in late 2010 - one very good - one mediocre... then delisted.

Rob Eddy - good enough to play 2 grandfinals - then delisted

Adam Pattison - barely given a chance - did ok with very limited opportunities - cut with no replacement in mind up forward or in the ruck

2011
RL says we need a forward... Riewoldt consistently beaten and battered yet our Sandy forwards in Walsh, Cahill and Johnson, all of who played patches of good footy played a total of 1 game between them

Gilbert keeps his spot for nearly the entire season despite being woefully out of form - what's the harm in dropping him to the 2s for a few weeks, give a kid a go and let Sam rebuild his confidence.

Jason Blake has a game up forward

Our choice of sub...

Too much weirdness for my liking - IMO needed to let others make decisions too

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

[skeptic]

wow... you quoted the entire op so u could add 7 words in case we didn't know what it was in reference too

[Little Dozer]

Not picking Cousins up didn't cost us the 09' GF. The bizarre use of Luke Ball and the non-selections of Armitage and Gwilt certainly did imhfo. How on earth do you select McQualter before either of them?

[saintspremiers]

wow... you quoted the entire op so u could add 7 words in case we didn't know what it was in reference too

Correct.

Whilst its good fun to bag tosser Lyin, he did some good.

He got us Schnider and Dumpster for pick 24 and Zac for squat.

[BigMart]

Cousins - a missed opportunity.....it would have cost ZERO

Ball - an absolute disgrace....09 GF, 09 Draft period

Walsh - cant work out why he wasnt played

Eddy - GF2 selection wrong....replay selection bizarre

Dempster - 09 GF....his role was ridiculous

Armitage - should have played deep into 09 after the Haw game

Lovett - an absolute JOKE...those responsible were sacked

Coaching effort vs Syd in 2011 EF - abysmal

What he did have was
A masterful game day tactical brain
A very strong core of senior players

[SaintPav]

People still banging on about Cousins. Incredible and very very wrong.

There are already multiple threads on this topic.

Playing BJ in a defensive forward role in place of Mini....Good one..

[SaintPav]

A good coach will not drop a player to the VFL to regain form unless you were a coach in the 1970s. That could actually make your form worse given the big difference in both leagues.

A good coach will manafacture a way to bring a player into a game by giving him a very specific and simple role or matchup so the player can get his confidence back. They are a bit more creative these days.

[saintly]

Cousins - a missed opportunity.....it would have cost ZERO

Ball - an absolute disgrace....09 GF, 09 Draft period

Walsh - cant work out why he wasnt played

Eddy - GF2 selection wrong....replay selection bizarre

Dempster - 09 GF....his role was ridiculous

Armitage - should have played deep into 09 after the Haw game

Lovett - an absolute JOKE...those responsible were sacked

Coaching effort vs Syd in 2011 EF - abysmal

What he did have was
A masterful game day tactical brain
A very strong core of senior players

should also include having Raph as a sub, where we all knew that would not work

[SainterK]

Cousins - a missed opportunity.....it would have cost ZERO

Ball - an absolute disgrace....09 GF, 09 Draft period

Walsh - cant work out why he wasnt played

Eddy - GF2 selection wrong....replay selection bizarre

Dempster - 09 GF....his role was ridiculous

Armitage - should have played deep into 09 after the Haw game

Lovett - an absolute JOKE...those responsible were sacked

Coaching effort vs Syd in 2011 EF - abysmal

What he did have was
A masterful game day tactical brain
A very strong core of senior players

should also include having Raph as a sub, where we all knew that would not work

He actually had my support most weeks with team selection, but Dempster starting forward v Swans has me still wondering why?

[Wrote for Luck]

problem with Lyon was he played favourites over time

mini, gilbert, clarke, kosi, geary, blake, dempster, gram, dawson, stanley

all made the pooch list at one point

not saying I don't rate these players but at times they had no business being out on the park!

[InkerSaint]

Too much weirdness for my liking - IMO needed to let others make decisions too

The trouble with the majority of your post is the claim that all of these decisions were unilaterally made by Lyon. Some of them probably were, but to throw them all in together weakens your argument.

I don't recall ever being impressed by Eddy. I recall being hopeful because Ross finally had a pet player under the age of 24.

As for Gwilt, maybe you forget but most of his early games under Ross were as a defensive forward. It was only when he was moved back that he started to arrive as a player.

McQualter and Eddy - good enough to play grand finals because they had the best numbers in the right columns, until the game plan that used those columns was found out. Lyon should have (and would have) known that Eddy's shelf life was limited. McQualter was given one preseason to reinvent himself. Harsh.

Walsh - yep, a wasted opportunity, but a) did his early season form warrant selection, and b) would his inclusion late in the season have harmed team stability. A speculative selection earlier on would have been nice to see.

A history of strange decisions, sorry, I don't see it. A history of conservative ones, definitely.

[Con Gorozidis]

Top OP.
I agree with it all. But your memory is way better than mine. Well done for remembering all that.

[Kilda]

Andrew McQualter 2010 - how anyone could continue to justify his continued selection in the 2nd half of the season will forever msytify me... he was consistently hopeless and ineffective and he should have been dropped much much earlier...

O I am in total agreement with this point.

[saintly]

Andrew McQualter 2010 - how anyone could continue to justify his continued selection in the 2nd half of the season will forever msytify me... he was consistently hopeless and ineffective and he should have been dropped much much earlier...

O I am in total agreement with this point.

yes, agree. i remember this very well. on saintsational noone could understand why he was playing game after game in 2010

[Sobraz]

RL has a great footy brain for strategy and tactics, possibly the best in the business, but he cannotidentify a quality player to save himself..

His identification of what makes a talented player, and being able to see and develop untapped potential is one of the worst going around..

[joffaboy]

All these faults with Lyon yet he took us to two GF's in a row and with luck could have won either of them.

Must have just been pure luck, because obviously he was clueless according to some of you.

[St Lenny]

SHane Birss, Troy Swartz, Barry Brooks, seriously are you deluded. Have you totally forgotten how bad Barry Brooks played in Tassie, no wonder he never got another game. Im not for a second defending Lyin, but to get rid of these players was a must.

As for Attard, dont get me started. He was brillant when Bakes was out serving his Farmer suspension. Every one forgets that. They only remember what he was like when he came back from that injury. Wasnt given long enough in my book, but thats footy.

As for Cousins, obviously forgotten that we were going to get him, but our sponsors didnt want any part of it, so the deal feel through, thank god.

McGuire, tragic injury but he was never going to be what we thought he could be.

As for Luke Ball, well we will never know why Lyin never bought him back on. I guess we like to dream that we could have won if he had.

[saintly]

All these faults with Lyon yet he took us to two GF's in a row and with luck could have won either of them.

Must have just been pure luck, because obviously he was clueless according to some of you.

and thats why we are now in the poo regsarding young talent.
as lyon wanted 4 year apprentice and not many players have come through over the past 4 years. 11 only. and so yes, we did well in the grand finals but as soon as he realised half way through this year that he forgot to grow young talent, he knew we would have problems and left.

[St Lenny]

SHane Birss, Troy Swartz, Barry Brooks, seriously are you deluded. Have you totally forgotten how bad Barry Brooks played in Tassie, no wonder he never got another game. Im not for a second defending Lyin, but to get rid of these players was a must.

As for Attard, dont get me started. He was brillant when Bakes was out serving his Farmer suspension. Every one forgets that. They only remember what he was like when he came back from that injury. Wasnt given long enough in my book, but thats footy.

As for Cousins, obviously forgotten that we were going to get him, but our sponsors didnt want any part of it, so the deal feel through, thank god.

McGuire, tragic injury but he was never going to be what we thought he could be.

As for Luke Ball, well we will never know why Lyin never bought him back on. I guess we like to dream that we could have won if he had.

[skeptic]

People still banging on about Cousins. Incredible and very very wrong.

There are already multiple threads on this topic.

Playing BJ in a defensive forward role in place of Mini....Good one..

Umh chances r rhat goddard whilst playing a 4ward would pbly not have played the famed forward def... Chances r he would have been more a med sized marking forward.
N the point was that he had options other than to play mini as some have u believe

Jb- did not say he did everything wrong oh queen of hyperbole... His team selection has confused me from the start

[skeptic]

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[skeptic]

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[skeptic]

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[The Fireman]

I find it odd that you weren't disappointed , great coach, took us to 2 GFs and despite the bulls*** about his negative game (which most have copied) got the best out of our list.

Anyway I can assure you that many were disapointed.