The Denis Pagan-Ross Lyon comparison

thejiggingsaint · Tue 18 Oct 2011 10:43am

While idling away a few moments here on the forum, I was struck by the similarity between the departures from their clubs of Lyon and Denis Pagan.
Both proved (after early teething troubles) to be clearly capable at their first senior coaching gig. Both had a similar gameplan (centred on defence and moving the ball up to a big centre-half forward).
Pagan left North despite them wanting him to remain as senior coach and going through protracted negotiations, and slipped away to the money at Carlton.
Lyon proved to be as mercenary (though somewhat sneakier) than Pagan.
We saw how Pagan went from a (so-called) "supercoach" to dud in the space of a couple of seasons that yielded; 2 wooden spoons (back to back) and a spot on the ladder no higher than 11th! ending up with his dismissal.
The BIG difference of course is that Pagan won two flags!
The question now facing Lyon is can he deliver? IMMEDIATELY! Will this end up with him being well-paid for 3-4 seasons and then being given the arse?
Dare we dream?

spert · Post: # 1165920Post **spert** » Tue 18 Oct 2011 12:33pm

Pagan was an excellent eye of talent and was a great developer of younger players. Lyon had a great defensive plan that worked for a couple of seasons, and that was about it.

Con Gorozidis · Tue 18 Oct 2011 12:39pm

Lyon is a one trick pony.
Will be a waste of Freos money.

stinger · Post: # 1165928Post **stinger** » Tue 18 Oct 2011 12:44pm

Con Gorozidis wrote:Lyon is a one trick pony.
Will be a waste of Freos money.

hope you are right...the prick has set us back 5 years.....

SENsei · Post: # 1165941Post **SENsei** » Tue 18 Oct 2011 1:03pm

Pagan also inherited the Elliott salary cap rorting fiasco, so whilst the facts of his Carlton tenure cannot be disputed, the reasons were pretty sensational.

saintspremiers · Tue 18 Oct 2011 1:50pm

stinger wrote:
Con Gorozidis wrote:Lyon is a one trick pony.
Will be a waste of Freos money.
hope you are right...the prick has set us back 5 years.....

Well said Stinger.

So glad now the arsehole has gone.

Long may Freo suffer!

plugger66 · Post: # 1166031Post **plugger66** » Tue 18 Oct 2011 3:56pm

Re writing of history. It is very funny and coming from some that actually thought he was the messiah.

thejiggingsaint · Tue 18 Oct 2011 7:27pm

If Lyon had remained here at St Kilda I would have been happy. However in the wake of the Sydney game, while all the speculation was rife, I thought to myself, "if he went at least we'd maybe score more goals" his style of play was AWFUL (successful true, but awful to watch at times) Lyon will be judged by history as to whether he is the 'super coach" many say he is.
I find it interesting that from being a "club in crisis" four weeks ago, we have rebounded from the Lyon departure and there is actually a high level of excitement about the new season 2012.
Freo on the other hand, still has divisions regarding the Lyon appointment among the supporters, with a lot of resentment at how Mark Harvey was treated. The failure to land Mitch Clark is another minus.
I am looking forward to seeing how both clubs emerge from this chapter.
Let history judge!
GO SAINTS!!!!

saintwill66 · Tue 18 Oct 2011 10:11pm

Time may prove me wrong, but I believe Ross Lyon will never achieve as much with Fremantle as he did with the Saints.

If press reports of his massive financial troubles are correct, then it is not suprising that he was unable to get the best out of the team. Losing millions and effectively bankrupt he would have found it impossible to focus 100% on his day-job. It will take him years to recover from such a devastating life-changing and humiliating experience, and I have no doubt that his strong impulse was to get as far away from Melbourne as possible once the season had ended.

This will continue to haunt him for many years, and Fremantle supporters will be in for more pain.

linz · Post: # 1166406Post **linz** » Tue 18 Oct 2011 10:13pm

I still can't understand why Gardiner didn't play in our last game against the Swans. Was he injured? Was Lyon already signed by Freo? Why were we so flat when we played? Conspiracy theory.

Bernard Shakey · Tue 18 Oct 2011 10:15pm

It is really amazing to see the complete turnaround of 90%+ of the opinion of Ross. Most supporters have no idea whatsoever.

bigcarl · Post: # 1166411Post **bigcarl** » Tue 18 Oct 2011 10:17pm

stinger wrote:
Con Gorozidis wrote:Lyon is a one trick pony.
Will be a waste of Freos money.
hope you are right...the prick has set us back 5 years.....

agree. we should have stuck with gt.

whiskers3614 · Tue 18 Oct 2011 10:21pm

No turn around here,always disliked his style but kept getting shouted down by the " IN ROSS WE TRUST " sycophant brigade.We all wish he had proven us wrong but...ALAS

linz · Post: # 1166455Post **linz** » Tue 18 Oct 2011 10:41pm

Shattering to lose Lyon first of all, Walsh next & Harves. Mind you it might be a good thing for Harves to get more experience elsewhere anyway. Good time to be at a more cheerful club.
Watters seems level headed and appears to be a great selection, but a coach can only do so much.

It's the Board I'm worried about. Was Pelchin hired too late; when the Board realized their incompetence in managing our list and salary cap was realized? At least someone can be blamed now.

All very well to get a great coach whilst discarding good players for no return because of salary cap issues. The Board is accountable and is to blame when financial issues arise. I feel sorry for Watters because the coach is always the one who gets the blame for poor on field performance. We need to look off-field now though to find the real culprits.

saint patrick · Tue 18 Oct 2011 10:49pm

The obvious comparison is they both have the warmth and facial expressions of a talking corpse...not that I have seen one..they just look as what I would imagine death warmed up talks like

bergholt · Post: # 1166490Post **bergholt** » Tue 18 Oct 2011 11:24pm

stinger wrote:
Con Gorozidis wrote:Lyon is a one trick pony.
Will be a waste of Freos money.
hope you are right...the prick has set us back 5 years.....

really? he did get us to a couple of grannies though. within a bee's dick of a flag. should we have been rebuilding for that whole time in order to get ready for 2017?

crippa2sipa · Wed 19 Oct 2011 9:14am

saintwill66 wrote:Time may prove me wrong, but I believe Ross Lyon will never achieve as much with Fremantle as he did with the Saints.

If press reports of his massive financial troubles are correct, then it is not suprising that he was unable to get the best out of the team. Losing millions and effectively bankrupt he would have found it impossible to focus 100% on his day-job. It will take him years to recover from such a devastating life-changing and humiliating experience, and I have no doubt that his strong impulse was to get as far away from Melbourne as possible once the season had ended.

This will continue to haunt him for many years, and Fremantle supporters will be in for more pain.

Yeah right.

In 2009 Ross Lyon invented the forward press, coached us to a near-perfect season and a grand final we were in a position to win with 5 mins to go, as he battled extreme stress in the face of financial ruin.

In 2010, Riewoldt's injury caused everyone to write us off & the Filth stole all our IP. Still, he coached us to a draw in the grand final, while wrestling with grief for the loss of his sister and the death of his nephew.

Lyon's focus was second to none. He was a remarkable coach. He was headhunted for a reason.

I can understand you despising him. It shows you're angry.

But rewriting history just makes you look stupid.