best and fairest

[Spud]

Sammy Fisher a thoroughly deserved winner!

[saintbrat]

for cost? that will always be up for debate.

I wouldn't describe the proportions as "generous".
I reckon there would be a few people buying a kebab on the way home.

Is that what you expect for $300+ ??

[gurubob101]

Uncropped version:
[/quote]

Sam Fisher... great player and happy to see him win the B&F after really standing up in the first part of the year when we were really struggling. But IMO this leader board displays a clear picture of a club with very defensive mindset. The winner... a defender, two taggers ranked high in the top 10, four half backs ranked higher than our number one ruckman... way too many defensive players in the top 20. We have a few exciting players like Milney, BJ and Dal but overall we are a pretty dour outfit and we have more half back flankers than you can poke a stick at.The new coach will have his hands full creating an attacking game plan to compete with the top clubs with that list. Maybe Raph and Gram to the wings and Cripps, Siposs and Stanley persevered with in the forward line might give us a bit more fire power in the longer term.

[Old Mate]

i would have liked to see dal santo win his first b & f ....kinda of disappointed tbh...he really deserved it this year and imo was the clear standout player for us...anyway, congrats to sam fisher, he was clearly in our top two players for the year.

[gringo]

It's funny people on this forum would gladly trade out or delist CJ, Gram, Dawson, Ray and Gilbert, yet all of them were good enough to go well in our BF. I wonder if the fans have no idea or the football department? Dempster was last years Dean polo with everyone calling him Ross' love child, he did ok for a guy who didn't deserve his spot.

[bennymac5]

[quote="gringo"]It's funny people on this forum would gladly trade out or delist CJ, Gram, Dawson, Ray and Gilbert, yet all of them were good enough to go well in our BF. I wonder if the fans have no idea or the football department? Dempster was last years Dean polo with everyone calling him Ross' love child, he did ok for a guy who didn't deserve his spot.[/quote]
Name one person who has said delist those players. People have wanted them to be traded, but who has said delist them?

[fingers]

Does anyone know the criteria and manner that points are allocated?

I think 5 people can vote for as many players as they like and can give up to 10 votes per player. As for someone saying Rooy didnt vote well, well there was one moronic suggesting on here he may not even get a vote. I think he finished pretty much exactly where he should of. Ben was disappointing and I thought Dal was a certainty.

Close
The 4 coaches each vote Midnight Oil style.
10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1
so the max score any player can get in a round is 40
and the minimum as Craig Willis pointed out is - Zilch

But I couldn't help noticing that NDS according to the captions polled 41 in one round (might have been a typo).

Thanks. That explains the numbers but what do they vote "for"?

[Sainter_Dad]

Thanks. That explains the numbers but what do they vote "for"?

Their role - If Dempster is asked to stop a player and he gets no disposals - then presumably he would get 50 points. Under this system it is harder to judge an attacking player unless he kicks a bag - a defensive player is easier to mark well - if his opponent has an off day he will score points.

[To the top]

That is absolutely correct, Shadow.

The FACTS are that St Kilda just squeezed into the Final 8 after a very, very poor start to the season (contributed to by the draw) and after playing off in the last 2 Grand Finals - and being within luck of winning both.

So view the position the Club is in thru rose coloured glasses if you will.

But, to me, the presence of the likes of Dempster, Milne, Jones and Schneider in the first 7 in our Best and Fairest count tells us why we are in the position we are in - and confirms that it is time to move on.

At the end of those voting in our B&F were Siposs, Ledger, Cripps, Stanley and Simpkin.

Does the fact that they polled as they did mean that the likes of Dempster, Milne, Jones and Schneider should automatically be chosen in preference?

I view Dempster as a solid list player, capable of performing a specific role and, if we are to be successful, a back up player.

I view Milne over rated - and, quite frankly, in looking at trading, I would look to see if Sheedy wants the publicity for a high draft pick. Yes, he AVERAGES 2 goals a game and he has "smarts" around goal, but he will be 32 and the pace of the game is finding him out particularly when the teams we HAVE to defeat can put the likes of the guy Collingwood put on him - who cuts him up and runs off down the ground with the ball creating havoc. Has not and will not win us a premiership and time to move on.

Jones is honest and as the season wound on gave us some contested ball wins - with Ling like disposals! Again, a list player.

Schneider is spasmotic, and a barometer of team performance. But I am firmly of the view that the evolution of the game means that all your mid-sized players must be full ground players - and that means pace, pace and more pace. Again, like Milne, time to look at those who polled just a few votes this year and see if they can bring the levels of improvement we need to maintain and improve on the position we finished in in 2011 (knocked out in the first Elimination Final which the types such as Shadow do not seem to comprehend).

We were bench mark in 2009.

We were competative in 2010 and hence ultimately in contention.

We were a very, very long way from being in contention in 2011.

Next season is 2012.

Football Clubs are about winning premierships, nothing else - and you do not "fall in love" with any player because, if you do, you have a problem.

I would suggest that St Kilda have to improve by 45% to be in contention in 2012 - and, hopefully, the likes of Riewoldt, Goddard, Montagna, Hayes and Koschitzke can give us a chunk of that given solid pre-seasons and injury free 2012's.

But we have to also improve around them.

If that means a change in certain personel, including some who polled in the top 7 during a very ordinary 2011 season in which we went backwards at a rate of knots, so be it - and that will be to the on-going advantage of St Kilda FC if that is the outcome.

[To the top]

I will just add that the lack of success at St Kilda in terms of doing what footy clubs are there to do, win premierships, sees a "hero worship" culture at St Kilda and particularly when that "hero" jags a few goals.

I am not a "hero worshipper".

I am one of those who wants to see whatever needs to be done done to deliver premierships (yes, plural) to the club.

Team, not "heroes".

St Kilda is still mired in the names of its "heroes" because it does not have teams which have delivered the ultimate.

That is the culture which has to change - and the statement is there to make now.

[plugger66]

You arent a hero worshipper but who is. Certainly not me but to say 4 of our top 7 in the B&F need to be replaced is plain stupid. What about the other 15. Surely if there is a few youngs that need to come in then some of those 15 could be dropped. But alas no you pick 4 of the top 7 and one of those, Milne, was AA for the first time in his career.

As you say you are no hero worshipper but you are also a man with little footy knowledge and the worst part is you write a lot to even prove your lack of footy knowledge.

Got to say it is a funny read though.

And you are right Milney will probably not deliver us a premiership but neither will probably Lenny or Rooy as Havs and Plugger didnt either. As I said, funny.

[HitTheBoundary]

Next season is 2012.

At least you got one thing right.

[gringo]

The idea that what ever is needed is a little naive. Playing kids over performing players isn't tough it is morally wrong and dispiriting for the list. When Milne has a brilliant year but is sent on his way, why should Goddard sign on when he knows that he is on the chopping block anyway. Milne sings the loudest after a win and is the life blood of this club. Sending him away the same time as Bakes would kill the spirit of the place. Not hero worship just respect. Giving 20 games to a player who is under performing is dumb. Places should be made available to young guys but they need to earn a game.

[MCG-Unit]

It's funny people on this forum would gladly trade out or delist CJ, Gram, Dawson, Ray and Gilbert, yet all of them were good enough to go well in our BF. I wonder if the fans have no idea or the football department? Dempster was last years Dean polo with everyone calling him Ross' love child, he did ok for a guy who didn't deserve his spot.

Yes, good enough for the coaches but not some supporters, note some of these have inconsistent disposal, so if their disposal is not pinpoint, players should be tipped out ? Never mind what else they contribute.
Also they don't always play nice attacking, flow-on footy.....

And in the Gram thread, there were 2 or 3 people calling for him to be delisted.

To the Top - very harsh on Milne, he kicked 55 goals this year, the top 8 goal kickers were all tall KPF (except for Milne & Walker)

[saintly]

The results confirm the season we had.

With all due respect to Dempster, he is not a match winner and the fact that he finished 3rd in our B&F off a servicable season as a dedicated role defender says it all.

The very fact that he out polled the likes of Montagna, Riewoldt and Goddard - and also McEvoy, Steven and Armitage who perform in our mid-field where games are won from is the commentary.

Apart from that there are no real surprises.

Fisher was the only player really standing up for much of the first half of the season.

It would be interesting to see who polled votes in games we lost (particularly against teams that finished in the top half of the ladder and against whom our results were very, very poor) - and in those we won easily to see who the "flat track bullies" and front runners are.

So game results v. votes awarded in those games should be the measurement.

You know what the B& F does tell us. That joke side you had for next year had 4 of the top 7 in the B&F not in the side. Milne an AA this year. Dempster third, CJ sixth and Schneider 7th. How can people take some of the sides people pick seriously when those players are left out. And dont give us crap that they are getting older and need replacing. Why not replace the poor players down the list what ever age they are. The B&F isnt everything but it does tell us what the coaches think of our players compared to some supporters who think they now a good side.

it is also possible that the B&F was based on how lyon works and thinks, who ever is our coach next year will have a different criteria, and i bet dempster won't be third

[Legendary]

I find myself agreeing with plugger66 100%.

[SainterK]

Didn't Dempster win the most match day balls this year, something decided by the players? He also won the Robert Harvey most professional award, and was one of the guys the team nominated for MVP?

He is well respected by coaches and his team mates, so surely it's proven to be more than a RL infatuation now?

[Bernard Shakey]

I would suggest that St Kilda have to improve by 45% to be in contention in 2012 - and, hopefully, the likes of Riewoldt, Goddard, Montagna, Hayes and Koschitzke can give us a chunk of that given solid pre-seasons and injury free 2012's.

You put Kosi in the same class as Roo, BJ, Joey and Lenny?
Kosi who has made top 10 once in his 11 seasons with us, and you bag players who finished top 10 this year? Give me a break, you've got no idea.

[plugger66]

The results confirm the season we had.

With all due respect to Dempster, he is not a match winner and the fact that he finished 3rd in our B&F off a servicable season as a dedicated role defender says it all.

The very fact that he out polled the likes of Montagna, Riewoldt and Goddard - and also McEvoy, Steven and Armitage who perform in our mid-field where games are won from is the commentary.

Apart from that there are no real surprises.

Fisher was the only player really standing up for much of the first half of the season.

It would be interesting to see who polled votes in games we lost (particularly against teams that finished in the top half of the ladder and against whom our results were very, very poor) - and in those we won easily to see who the "flat track bullies" and front runners are.

So game results v. votes awarded in those games should be the measurement.

You know what the B& F does tell us. That joke side you had for next year had 4 of the top 7 in the B&F not in the side. Milne an AA this year. Dempster third, CJ sixth and Schneider 7th. How can people take some of the sides people pick seriously when those players are left out. And dont give us crap that they are getting older and need replacing. Why not replace the poor players down the list what ever age they are. The B&F isnt everything but it does tell us what the coaches think of our players compared to some supporters who think they now a good side.

it is also possible that the B&F was based on how lyon works and thinks, who ever is our coach next year will have a different criteria, and i bet dempster won't be third

Quite possibly but are you saying the other 4 coaches who vote dont think for themselves? Anyway I dont care about the votes, I care about players being replaced that will make the side better. Getting rid of those 4 doesnt make the side better. It makes it worse. There are others to be dropped in front of them.

[To the top]

So, another question to put to Shadow is:-

"Given the salary cap pressures, how would you best go about adhering to the requirement? By trading Gilbert who is 24, 194cm, 90kg and a running backline player with 110 games of experience OR trading Milne who is 32, 176cm, 83kg with 236 games of experience?"

Which solution best suits the future needs of St Kilda - over the next 5 years or more?

And particularly that we fervently hope and trust that the likes of Sippos, Cripps and Ledger mature into AFL footballers in 2012 and onwards.

Plus we have a raft of other players on our list who, to date, have minimal or no AFL exposure.

I know the decision I would be making.

For a raft of reasons.

[dcstkfc]

I'd be moving on Ray and Clarke before the four in the top 7.

[plugger66]

So, another question to put to Shadow is:-

"Given the salary cap pressures, how would you best go about adhering to the requirement? By trading Gilbert who is 24, 194cm, 90kg and a running backline player with 110 games of experience OR trading Milne who is 32, 176cm, 83kg with 236 games of experience?"

Which solution best suits the future needs of St Kilda - over the next 5 years or more?

And particularly that we fervently hope and trust that the likes of Sippos, Cripps and Ledger mature into AFL footballers in 2012 and onwards.

Plus we have a raft of other players on our list who, to date, have minimal or no AFL exposure.

I know the decision I would be making.

For a raft of reasons.

And a new club would want a 32 year old. Please stop typing.

[elizabethr]

And a fan club web site would want a 60+ volunteer !...

[gringo]

So, another question to put to Shadow is:-

"Given the salary cap pressures, how would you best go about adhering to the requirement? By trading Gilbert who is 24, 194cm, 90kg and a running backline player with 110 games of experience OR trading Milne who is 32, 176cm, 83kg with 236 games of experience?"

Which solution best suits the future needs of St Kilda - over the next 5 years or more?

And particularly that we fervently hope and trust that the likes of Sippos, Cripps and Ledger mature into AFL footballers in 2012 and onwards.

Plus we have a raft of other players on our list who, to date, have minimal or no AFL exposure.

I know the decision I would be making.

For a raft of reasons.

I get what your saying but there is still some loyalty left in footy. Exiting guys like Milne after he has stayed loyal to us for so long sets a bad precedent. Most players don't want to change clubs, they have their mates and routines and will keep signing to keep that going. If opportunities come up or are denied it makes it harder to stay. If you wanted to be ruthless, you would say Roo had a bad year, maybe the start of the end. Send him up to GWS as a marquee player we get their 17 yo and john Patton and we set ourselves up. But when we lose all our big names under free agency it backfires. Loyalty is a 2 way street.