on the couch

[Mr Magic]

St Kilda, negotiating through Craig Kelly were given the impression that they had done a deal to re-sign Lyon to a new 4 year deal.
They went as far as organizing a press conference to announce it.
It was obviously reasonably well known within st kilda circles - backfromUSA even hinted at it in a thread.

It was called off when Lyon contacted Nettlefold to tell him he was leaving.


IMHO, none of that could possilby lead anyone to think that there was any reason other than substantially more money for Lyon to leave.

Without knowing the exact ins and outs, it would appear that Kelly informed Lyon on the Tuesday afternoon/evening that he had reached 'agreement' with St Kilda.
Lyon then spoke (either directly or through his secret negotiator) to Freo and elicited an offer from them that was far superior to the one negotiated by Kelly.

I believe
That's the whole story.
There's no 'secret' conspiracies.
There's no other 'story' bubbling along in the background.
Any talk of 'untenable' with St Kilda is purely a smokescreen designed to deflect lyon's double dealing in this matter.

I didn't see the program, but I'd be willing to bet that Roos is just 'being a mate' to his friend.

I find it really difficult to understand why people find it almost impossible to believe that players/coaches need anything more than a 'better offer' to leave?

It's also really interesting watching the reaction from our players to Lyon's departure as against their reaction to Ball's departure.
There seems to be zero angst from the players towards Lyon
Yet there were many 'barbs' (both veiled and direct) abouut Ball's defection to Collingwood.

I reckon that says an awful lot about what went on in both cases.

[Scollop]

There's something about Ross that I was never sold on, and I couldn't quite figure it out....I've always felt that his words didn't quite match his thoughts and perhaps a lot of people including media have also had this feeling about the man and the evidence is in his actions.

We've seen Ross under alot of pressure during this year and it reminds me of the person we saw when he first came to the club and when he was under a lot of heat after his first year as senior coach.

In hindsight with so many wins and a top 2 finish guaranteed there were certainly mistakes when he didn't rest enough of our players or rotate players in the lead up to finals. I'm not talking about getting rid of a former captain in your footy club when they have strengths that are on display during finals. I'm not talking about his questioning of the playing group and their commitment to improve post the 2009 GF. And I'm not talking about his recruiting philosophy or his match day line ups or the fact that he continually searches for excuses, and thinks that he couldn't have done a better job.

What I've concluded is that Ross is a bloke with a lack of true leadership, a lack of integrity and a lack of ability to judge the character of footy players - both seniors and rookies and the untried youth that had come through the club during his tenure. All these qualities are interdependent (look up the word if you don't know what it means).

[Verdun66]

He was never that convincing talking about 'us', or 'our football club'. Can't put my finger on it either. There was always a deliberate way he spoke, that had a tinge of insincerity.

Sometimes when he said 'The St Kilda Football Club', it sounded like he was talking about someone else. I know it is in hindsight, but I was never sold on him as a person. As a coach, to a point, yes. He did give us an amazing win/loss record, and an also amazing season in 2009.

But we ultimately didn't get the prize.

[The OtherThommo]

Well to be fair Stinger, Paul knows all about 'intenable' situations. 

When Barry needed him, he didn't even return his phone calls. 

Did he say the 'Saints' did something wrong, or the board, or make it sound like he fell out with a particular individual?

I reckon the board was telling him how to coach.

no ..he wouldn't say....the subject came up because roos had been quoted in a west aussie paper saying that judas had no choice but to leave the saints

..said on tellie last night that if he had been asked for his advice..he would have told ross to leave...also said that the ceo was well aware of the reasons for judas leaving...apart from that he said sfa...apart from that he was ross's mate and therefore wouldn't be discussing it publicly...yeah yeah...  :roll:

Right!  Why gp there in the first place.  Bunch of wankers.  :twisted:  :evil:

To be fair, it looked like Sheahan and Healy were trying to prise out of Roos some reasons for his comments that Lyon had no choice but to depart.
Something has happened for sure, maybe about RL's contract, or Pelchen's arrival....

I can understand Healy & Noddy putting pressure on Roos.

But given he was never going to spill the beans it would be better if he simply said "I'm a good friend of Ross so I'd prefer not to comment on what has happened".

Persactly, Doc. Roos is not alone in using his media role to help a mate run a private agenda but the fact he is not alone makes it no less galling.

Roos has accepted a number of roles in the media. This "I know something and you don't" tactic just doesn't wash. He's hung his cred on Lyon's version.

It also suggests to me he knows this story has more than just Lyon's side. Normally someone with a potential bias or conflict would say as you suggested, Doc, but ensure someone else in the media was briefed and would put the version out. But, only if they were extremely confident that version would stand scrutiny.

I reckon Roos knows the Lyon "untenable" simplification wouldn't stand the scrutiny so he leaves it deliberately vague. One man's "untenable" is another man's hiccough.

I had one thought running through my head when Roos trotted out his stuff on Monday night, and it's an oldie;

"P!ss or get off the pot, Roos".

[SaintPav]

There's something about Ross that I was never sold on, and I couldn't quite figure it out....I've always felt that his words didn't quite match his thoughts and perhaps a lot of people including media have also had this feeling about the man and the evidence is in his actions.

We've seen Ross under alot of pressure during this year and it reminds me of the person we saw when he first came to the club and when he was under a lot of heat after his first year as senior coach.

In hindsight with so many wins and a top 2 finish guaranteed there were certainly mistakes when he didn't rest enough of our players or rotate players in the lead up to finals. I'm not talking about getting rid of a former captain in your footy club when they have strengths that are on display during finals. I'm not talking about his questioning of the playing group and their commitment to improve post the 2009 GF. And I'm not talking about his recruiting philosophy or his match day line ups or the fact that he continually searches for excuses, and thinks that he couldn't have done a better job.

What I've concluded is that Ross is a bloke with a lack of true leadership, a lack of integrity and a lack of ability to judge the character of footy players - both seniors and rookies and the untried youth that had come through the club during his tenure. All these qualities are interdependent (look up the word if you don't know what it means).

I'm not sticking up for him but I like to deal in facts. I have listened to every one of his press conferences since 2007 and Ross never made excuses. He always put the heat back on the club.

Linking his intergrity and leadership to his coaching philosophy and not playing kids is ridiculous.

As far as i'm concerned the club gave Ross too much responsibility and power. Who else ever spoke on behalf of the club? Certainly not our President.

Did anyone one in the club ever question him about the Ball and Lovett l balls up?

Thanks for the word tip.

[Johnny Member]

It's also really interesting watching the reaction from our players to Lyon's departure as against their reaction to Ball's departure.
There seems to be zero angst from the players towards Lyon
Yet there were many 'barbs' (both veiled and direct) abouut Ball's defection to Collingwood.

I reckon that says an awful lot about what went on in both cases.

I reckon it's that don't really care that Lyon left, and they really did care that Ball left.

The players made a pact to stay together. They had unfinished business - and for whatever the reason, Ball broke that pact.

Playing with a mate, bleeding with them on-field, is very different to being coached by a guy for a few years.


It's different if the coach drafted you, and 'raised' you in a football sense, but if a coach comes along when you're already a gun player in a good team, then leaves after 4 years then I understand that they probably don't care that much.

A guy like Dal has probably 3-4 coaches anyway.

[Johnny Member]

I'm not sticking up for him but I like to deal in facts. I have listened to every one of his press conferences since 2007 and Ross never made excuses. He always put the heat back on the club.

The heat was always on someone else I felt. Never him.

I know people grew tired of Thomas' 'I was outcoached' line after losses, but that was used as a way to absord the criticism himself, and defelect it from the players.
As a coach, if you lose and your players aren't 100% committed on the day - then you failed as a coach. If the opposition's coach gets his players to put in 100% effort for 4 quarters, and you don't - then you were outcoached.

Lyon didn't see things that way I don't think. I think he felt he'd always done everything right - and if we lost it was because the players didn't do what he asked them to do.


That attitude was lapped up on this board too I noticed. When we won, Lyon was a marvel and he lead us to Grand Finals. But when we lost, it was the players' fault - never the coach. The players didn't do what he wanted them to do.

I've always felt that the coach's number one job is to get the players to do what he wants them to do. If they aren't doing it, then he's not coaching them well. That's what leadership is all about.

[Moods]

It's also really interesting watching the reaction from our players to Lyon's departure as against their reaction to Ball's departure.
There seems to be zero angst from the players towards Lyon
Yet there were many 'barbs' (both veiled and direct) abouut Ball's defection to Collingwood.

I reckon that says an awful lot about what went on in both cases.

I reckon it's that don't really care that Lyon left, and they really did care that Ball left.

The players made a pact to stay together. They had unfinished business - and for whatever the reason, Ball broke that pact.

Playing with a mate, bleeding with them on-field, is very different to being coached by a guy for a few years.


It's different if the coach drafted you, and 'raised' you in a football sense, but if a coach comes along when you're already a gun player in a good team, then leaves after 4 years then I understand that they probably don't care that much.

A guy like Dal has probably 3-4 coaches anyway.

I reckon you are dead set wrong. If they didn't care they would be indifferent to the situation. You can tell they care, and you can tell they are disappointed with the whole situation.

You reckon the Collingwood boys couldn't care less whether MM leaves? You can tell they love him. They develop a relationship. They are not robots. They also cared that Ball left b/c he was one of them. Some of them probably felt a sense of betrayal b/c of the pact they made together. Over time most have probably come to realise that Bally made the right choice for HIM.

I think for whatever reason the players immediately realised that Lyon had made the right choice for HIMSELF. They were disappointed, but it appears they understand.

As an example - Roo didn't seem at all uncomfortable that Lyon was at the Brownlow. Surprised, but not uncomfortable. In fact he made a joke about Lyon wearing a purple tie and then said he would go inside and talk to him. That's something u would say about a mate. Rewind back to the Ball situation and the key players indicated at the time that they hadn't spoken with Ball at all. THat indicated to me that they were filthy on him and possibly not happy with the way he left. Roo was at pains to tell ppl that Ball had a contract offered to him that he walked out on.

[Johnny Member]

You reckon the Collingwood boys couldn't care less whether MM leaves? You can tell they love him. They develop a relationship.

That's possibly the key. A relationship.

Didn't Lyon say he spoke to two players personally? And SMS'd the rest?


Come on, that's the not the act of someone handling people that he has built a relationship with and who are devastated he's leaving.

[Johnny Member]

As an example - Roo didn't seem at all uncomfortable that Lyon was at the Brownlow. Surprised, but not uncomfortable. In fact he made a joke about Lyon wearing a purple tie and then said he would go inside and talk to him. That's something u would say about a mate.

I disagree - to me that came across as 'indifference'.

[joffaboy]

Well this is an interesting thread.

If Roos is alluding to, as some seem to think, that RL was directed to be more attacking in his gameplan directly before the EF, something is amiss.

Especially when I CLEARLY remember Lyon saying he was going to tweak the gameplan to be more attacking - AT THE BEGINNING OF THE SEASON.

So this has been brewing for some time? yes since the end of 2009 when we won 19 straight with a forward press gameplan that relied on turnovers for goals. It didn't win us a flag in 2009.

The gameplan was still working in 2010 but Collingwood perfected the press to such a degree that it went past our game. We almost won the GF because our defensive gameplan let us down in the first half and Collingwood were walking away with the flag.

Lyon changes his players around, with Gardiner injured got Balke and Kosi to run Jolley into the ground, Lenny and bj performed heroics (with Fahran Ray completely blanketing Swan) and Gilbert up forward. We attacked both the ball and the man and almost won.

Come 2011, any fool would have to see that Lyons gameplan of 09 was outdated, so is it unreasonable that during the many meetings that a football club has with the football dept durign the preseason that a change in gameplan may have been put forward?

Which brings us to Lyon publicly stating he wanted a more attacking gameplan for 2011.

Now we get Roos, with one side of the story, Ross Lyon's (who is surely still justifying his walk out and knifing of Mark harvey) thinking he knows the full story.

I know absolutely nothing about the above, it is all supposition about what occured, however I know as a fact that Lyon openly stated he wanted a more attacking gameplan for 2011.

Maybe Lyon didn't like his full control being questioned? Maybe the club DID run roughshod over Lyon. Nobody fully knows, certainly not anybody here, and certainly not Roos who only knows his good friend and confidante's obviously biased side of the story.

[markp]

Hmmmm... $7.5 million and a fresh start, or $2.6 million from a bunch of turkeys who balked (and nearly choked) at the very same suggestion 6 months earlier, and who wanted get out clauses and to tell me how to coach...?... Hmmmmm.....

Loyalty may be a quaint and almost outdated notion in football, but it's also a two-way street.... show some of it along with some faith midyear when he made his offer, and he stays.

It should never have gotten to the stage of freo making their way too good to refuse offer, and the he said she said 'accounts' of the last days are irrelevant... the deal was blown 6 months prior.

[samoht]

i don't blame the board if it took its time in negotiating with RL (if that's what indeed happened).

Lyon's game plan did not deliver a premiership when he inherited a strong side entering its peak .. and there's a sting in that "relative success" tail in that we missed out on high draft picks.
(Plus the fact that he didn't prioritise on recruiting the best available youth... means we now face an even more uncertain future).

Meanwhile teams that have gone about things in the right way have not only leapfrogged us - but in the case of the Pies are poised for back to back premierships and even a hat-trick is quite likely, who knows ?

Whereas we just have empty slogans like Saints Footy .
Thanks RL, what a legacy !

We might as well save money now on an untried coach and try to recruit and rebuild (from a lowered /weakened base thanks to RL).

[perfectionist]

...If Roos is alluding to, as some seem to think, that RL was directed to be more attacking in his gameplan directly before the EF, something is amiss.

Especially when I CLEARLY remember Lyon saying he was going to tweak the gameplan to be more attacking - AT THE BEGINNING OF THE SEASON.

So this has been brewing for some time? yes since the end of 2009 when we won 19 straight with a forward press gameplan that relied on turnovers for goals. It didn't win us a flag in 2009.

The gameplan was still working in 2010 but Collingwood perfected the press to such a degree that it went past our game. We almost won the GF because our defensive gameplan let us down in the first half and Collingwood were walking away with the flag.

Lyon changes his players around, with Gardiner injured got Balke and Kosi to run Jolley into the ground, Lenny and bj performed heroics (with Fahran Ray completely blanketing Swan) and Gilbert up forward. We attacked both the ball and the man and almost won.

Come 2011, any fool would have to see that Lyons gameplan of 09 was outdated, so is it unreasonable that during the many meetings that a football club has with the football dept durign the preseason that a change in gameplan may have been put forward?

Which brings us to Lyon publicly stating he wanted a more attacking gameplan for 2011....I know absolutely nothing about the above, it is all supposition about what occured, however I know as a fact that Lyon openly stated he wanted a more attacking gameplan for 2011.

Maybe Lyon didn't like his full control being questioned? Maybe the club DID run roughshod over Lyon. Nobody fully knows, certainly not anybody here, and certainly not Roos who only knows his good friend and confidante's obviously biased side of the story.

Fair summary. The only things I would add would be "It didn't win us a flag in 2009 -but it should have" and "The gameplan was still working in 2010 but Collingwood perfected the press to such a degree that it went past our game. However, Collingwood choked when the pressure was on, something they were not going to do two weeks running."

The uncontrolled bitterness on this board in recent weeks is, I reckon, more of a result of those two events than anything else. To some extent, it is understandable. On Saturday, we will watch two teams playoff, both hit by injuries at the crucial time. Neither had any injury concern at all on GF day in 2009 or 2010. Just another little piece of luck that didn't go our way. I reckon Nick, in particular, would have been relieved to see Nathan Brown not being available and then Ben Reid being under a cloud. And it was Darren Jolly who lifted Collingwood to be a premiership contender. But, it was not to be.

[samoht]

You can't rely on luck ... Collingwood laid 38 forward 50 tackles to our 11 in GF2.
Where's the luck in that ?

and why didn't our "great coach" RL prioritise our F50 tackling, chasing and harassing in 2011 ?

some coach !

[Ross who?]

i don't blame the board if it took its time in negotiating with RL (if that's what indeed happened).

Lyon's game plan did not deliver a premiership when he inherited a strong side entering its peak .. and there's a sting in that "relative success" tail in that we missed out on high draft picks.
(Plus the fact that he didn't prioritise on recruiting the best available youth... means we now face an even more uncertain future).

Meanwhile teams that have gone about things in the right way have not only leapfrogged us - but in the case of the Pies are poised for back to back premierships and even a hat-trick is quite likely, who knows ?

Whereas we just have empty slogans like Saints Footy .
Thanks RL, what a legacy !


We might as well save money now on an untried coach and try to recruit and rebuild (from a lowered /weakened base thanks to RL).

+1000

[Ross who?]

Double post

[joffaboy]

Lyon's game plan did not deliver a premiership when he inherited a strong side entering its peak .. and there's a sting in that "relative success" tail in that we missed out on high draft picks.
.

I think the bigger sting in the tail is that we now have SC problems. Look not blaming Lyon for that (or the high dp's), because thata the price you have to pay to get a crack at a flag. Nobodies fault, its the way it is. We got Schneider and Dempster because Sydney had SC issues and couldn't fit them in.

What goes around comes around.

If we had have won just one in 09 or 10 would we be bemoaning the lack of high dp's or the SC issues? Probably not.

One thing though. If we have SC pressure now, how on earth could we have kept Luke Ball or one of the other high profile stars, considering we freed up probably $500 to $600k in our SC because we got nobody for Ball.

[samoht]

Yes indeed jb.

Hopefully the SC issue starts to loom large at the Pies (if it isn't already) ..and GWS and/or the Suns are cashed up and ready to swoop.

Luke Ball's $600 k/annum ( SC saving to our club) probably was used to top up our core players' salaries ?

[Moods]

Hmmmm... $7.5 million and a fresh start, or $2.6 million from a bunch of turkeys who balked (and nearly choked) at the very same suggestion 6 months earlier, and who wanted get out clauses and to tell me how to coach...?... Hmmmmm.....

Loyalty may be a quaint and almost outdated notion in football, but it's also a two-way street.... show some of it along with some faith midyear when he made his offer, and he stays.

It should never have gotten to the stage of freo making their way too good to refuse offer, and the he said she said 'accounts' of the last days are irrelevant... the deal was blown 6 months prior.

Precisely

[barks4eva]

Hmmmm... $7.5 million and a fresh start, or $2.6 million from a bunch of turkeys who balked (and nearly choked) at the very same suggestion 6 months earlier, and who wanted get out clauses and to tell me how to coach...?... Hmmmmm.....

Loyalty may be a quaint and almost outdated notion in football, but it's also a two-way street.... show some of it along with some faith midyear when he made his offer, and he stays.

It should never have gotten to the stage of freo making their way too good to refuse offer, and the he said she said 'accounts' of the last days are irrelevant... the deal was blown 6 months prior.

PRECISELY!

Throw in a Pelchen appointment mid year to diminish Lyon's authority.....and it's OBVIOUS the board and Lyon were not on the same page!

Then when the board do get back to offering a contract six months later they come up with a two year extension with conditions > GET OUT CLAUSES still in the contract

and only agreed to the four years without conditions at the last minute, but through the board's dithering and disrespect the door was already ajar


so when at the last minute Freo offer 7.5 million without the shenanigans and conditions


it's not too difficult to see why he left!


Freo will dominate for the next four years with Lyon coaching them and it will be in no small way due to the incompetence and ineptness of the St kilda administration!



We can also thank these surrender monkeys for not taking Cousins which probably ended up costing us the premiership in 2009!

[Dr Spaceman]

Hmmmm... $7.5 million and a fresh start, or $2.6 million from a bunch of turkeys who balked (and nearly choked) at the very same suggestion 6 months earlier, and who wanted get out clauses and to tell me how to coach...?... Hmmmmm.....

Loyalty may be a quaint and almost outdated notion in football, but it's also a two-way street.... show some of it along with some faith midyear when he made his offer, and he stays.

It should never have gotten to the stage of freo making their way too good to refuse offer, and the he said she said 'accounts' of the last days are irrelevant... the deal was blown 6 months prior.

PRECISELY!

Throw in a Pelchen appointment mid year to diminish Lyon's authority.....and it's OBVIOUS the board and Lyon were not on the same page!

Then when the board do get back to offering a contract six months later they come up with a two year extension with conditions > GET OUT CLAUSES still in the contract

and only agreed to the four years without conditions at the last minute, but through the board's dithering and disrespect the door was already ajar


so when at the last minute Freo offer 7.5 million without the shenanigans and conditions


it's not too difficult to see why he left!


Freo will dominate for the next four years with Lyon coaching them and it will be in no small way due to the incompetence and ineptness of the St kilda administration!



We can also thank these surrender monkeys for not taking Cousins which probably ended up costing us the premiership in 2009!

[SaintPav]

Hmmmm... $7.5 million and a fresh start, or $2.6 million from a bunch of turkeys who balked (and nearly choked) at the very same suggestion 6 months earlier, and who wanted get out clauses and to tell me how to coach...?... Hmmmmm.....

Loyalty may be a quaint and almost outdated notion in football, but it's also a two-way street.... show some of it along with some faith midyear when he made his offer, and he stays.

It should never have gotten to the stage of freo making their way too good to refuse offer, and the he said she said 'accounts' of the last days are irrelevant... the deal was blown 6 months prior.

PRECISELY!

Throw in a Pelchen appointment mid year to diminish Lyon's authority.....and it's OBVIOUS the board and Lyon were not on the same page!

Then when the board do get back to offering a contract six months later they come up with a two year extension with conditions > GET OUT CLAUSES still in the contract

and only agreed to the four years without conditions at the last minute, but through the board's dithering and disrespect the door was already ajar


so when at the last minute Freo offer 7.5 million without the shenanigans and conditions


it's not too difficult to see why he left!


Freo will dominate for the next four years with Lyon coaching them and it will be in no small way due to the incompetence and ineptness of the St kilda administration!



We can also thank these surrender monkeys for not taking Cousins which probably ended up costing us the premiership in 2009!

Another commnet from you anchored in delusion.

What's Cousins go to do with this?

So the board should have just given Lyon whatever he wanted?

Why do you need all those line spaces between your sentences? It's very annoying. Just like your posts.

[barks4eva]

Another commnet from you anchored in delusion.

What's Cousins go to do with this?

So the board should have just given Lyon whatever he wanted?

Why do you need all those line spaces between your sentences? It's very annoying.

Ok, I will take that on board







Yes the board should have signed Lyon in April and then he could have started planning for the future!







Regarded in the industry as one of the best, after back to back Grand Finals and an uncompromising work ethic the recruiting in 2010 showed that he was now planning ahead and just needed a tick of approval from the board in guaranteeing his long term security







Delusional sums up the sheep on here who support and back this incompetent administration







Cousins is just another example of a board **** UP and their inability to make the right call.








The boards decision not to take Cousins possibly cost us the 2009 premiership!








Anyway SaintPAV does Pav not play for Freo....you must be on the wrong site!

[markp]

So the board should have just given Lyon whatever he wanted?

Nope, just $650k X 4 without get-out clauses, when he sought it 6 month ago... if they wanted to keep him.

The thing is, it's just outrageous to paint him as a devil for taking a better offer in the end. They had a chance to lock him in for 4 years and missed it. Simple. End of story.

Who on this earth would turn down $7.5million against $2.6 million from someone who'd been dithering for 6 months?... by the time freo made their offer it was too late.

Bad blood + truly epic offer = walk.