History and What we can learn

[dartos]

St Kilda through a strange set of circumstances set up the last decade and even though we never achieved the holy grail and I cried a lot in September it was one of our more successful times

1994 - 1998 Stan Alves coach and a very good one who got us to the grand final but was stabbed by the system
Various rumors. Why sack a coach who gets you to a grand final?
win / loss ratio = 48%. he didn't have a great team and Sheldon deserves a bit of credit for building a team.
We didn't have luck lazar injured ( and by rumor wanted to go out in a blaze of infamous glory) / spider injured no number one ruck man. Harvey knocked for six by McCloud in grand final and we could go on….

1999 - 2000 Tim Watson ....believe it or not he is my favorite coach. He took a winning team and drove it to the bottom of the ladder. I must admit that takes talent! That year I was almost suicidal watching his coaching faux pas’ BUT we got Nicky and Kozy the next year.
win / loss ratio = 28%


2000 Plympton was removed and the start of the Butters / Thomas era,
We fell into a purple patch in those years Kosy and Nicky

2000 - 2001 Malcolm Blight - a great ideaâ€

[saintbrat]

heheh intersting where peoples thoughts are going
In another thread someone blames Ross's going on Burkey and Harves and Stewie. as they did with Blight and Alves- NOT MY thoughts

made me go searching as I have heard Burkey and Harves Both address the Alves issue and deny any involvment.

but found this article which is like a brief synopsis of the recent Saints history
http://www.stanalves.com.au/articleContent.aspx?id=257

and this read from 1998
http://footystats.freeservers.com/Speci ... eview.html
the names are familiar amongst many coaching changes.

PS and Most will now know on which side of trade our stars I sit- NO WAY they are our stability

[spert]

Good points made.. but history also shows us instability, poor planning and poor financial management by club boards over the years have been a real issue at St Kilda which has been the major reason our cup cupboard is pretty bare. We have had more stability in recent years and had more success as a result -that's a major lesson to be learnt. No business survives if it plans for short-term gain, same goes for footy clubs.. plan for the future and stick with the plan and turn over a few people as possible. Lyon's turnover of assistants was a bit of a worry for me, and that reeked of short-term thinking, not planning for the future. A winning group should be kept together at all costs.

[saintbrat]

. Lyon's turnover of assistants was a bit of a worry for me, and that reeked of short-term thinking, not planning for the future. A winning group should be kept together at all costs.

maybe a need for balance between the all encompassing that Ross did to perfection and some form of release.. in his post match either vs Carlton or swans he mentioned that he was a hard task master.. but in life there needs to be balance.

[dartos]

Saintbrat thanks for those articles. They were great reading!
cheers and lets hope!

[BigMart]

If we rebuild from scratch it doesnt guarantee success

Didnt work last time....

[gringo]

If we rebuild from scratch it doesnt guarantee success

Didnt work last time....

The priority pick is gone, a heap of future compo picks unused still, 2 new teams thinning the talent and the rebuild isn't what it used to be. We exploited a loop hole and Carlton, Hawthorn and melbourne all used our system of flatlining temporarily to rebuild but it became embarrassing for the AFL and it was shut down. Club sponsors expect more these days too. We may have to tweak and hope we recruit well rather than chuck out stars and hope we don't get the next Tambling or Fiora with our first pick. We still have the core that got us to two GFs, see what a new coach can achieve with it and then go for serious pruning.

[Con Gorozidis]

[quote="BigMart"]If we rebuild from scratch it doesnt guarantee success

Didnt work last time....[/quote

Got us a very good side and a fair crack at it. Better than being the tiges. Forever 9th.

But good thought provoking thread this one. The idea of direct tanking is not as obvious and clear cut as it was 5 years when carlton and melbourne did it. But the eagles still came out of last year with shuey and darling and nicnat a few years back. We will never know whether they managed that or just got lucky. My gut feel is we can have a serious crack next year and hope we get a coach as good as scott at geelong and our stars feel refreshed in a new regime.

But no matter what happens we probably need to re build from 2013 onwards.

[saintspremiers]

. Lyon's turnover of assistants was a bit of a worry for me, and that reeked of short-term thinking, not planning for the future. A winning group should be kept together at all costs.

maybe a need for balance between the all encompassing that Ross did to perfection and some form of release.. in his post match either vs Carlton or swans he mentioned that he was a hard task master.. but in life there needs to be balance.

Who cares or rates anymore what scum Tossa thought/did.

He can't be trusted, do he's a nothing now as far as I'm concerned.

[meher baba]

Someone once said that the only thing anyone learns from history is that nobody learns anything from history.

I'm not even sure there's much to learn. Can't go back to the bottoming out strategy IMO. Not sure we want to continue with the Lyon "22 robots" style of coaching.

It's probably time to try a fresh new approach. But there's risk in that, so we'll all need to stay calm.

[dartos]

I agree that the system has changed and like most I hope we can have a good crack in 2012/2013. But if it doesn't work we will have used the cards that might be able to set-up the next generation. Yes there is no priority picks but we could get lucky and it can happen that you pick up a very good player lower in the draft.

The idea of free agency worries me and we have had players e.g. Ditterich, Perovic, Ball, etc.... leaving us like the old days and more recently days for better clubs and cash which we cannot offer. The insult to injury is that we would not get any compensation and we are forced into medicrity like the tiges.

"If we rebuild from scratch it doesnt guarantee success

Didnt work last time...."

But doing nothing is worse in my mind but everyone is entitled to an opinion. Also I agree that we have to be very calm and calculated with the plan for the next decade.



Finally I hope that the team we have is good enough next year and dream of just one more in my lifetime. I was too young to really appreciate 1966 and I feel for all the past supporters who have passed away without seeing a successful St Kilda GF .

[dartos]

I agree that the system has changed and like most I hope we can have a good crack in 2012/2013. But if it doesn't work we will have used the cards that might be able to set-up the next generation. Yes there is no priority picks but we could get lucky and it can happen that you pick up a very good player lower in the draft.

The idea of free agency worries me and we have had players e.g. Ditterich, Perovic, Ball, etc.... leaving us like the old days and more recently days for better clubs and cash which we cannot offer. The insult to injury is that we would not get any compensation and we are forced into medicrity like the tiges.

"If we rebuild from scratch it doesnt guarantee success

Didnt work last time...."

But doing nothing is worse in my mind but everyone is entitled to an opinion. Also I agree that we have to be very calm and calculated with the plan for the next decade.



Finally I hope that the team we have is good enough next year and dream of just one more in my lifetime. I was too young to really appreciate 1966 and I feel for all the past supporters who have passed away without seeing a successful St Kilda GF .

[saintspremiers]

Doesn't the priority pick still exist?

Finish with less than 20 points in consecutive seasons and you get an extra pick at the start of round 2 of the draft?

[dartos]

Yes it still exists

From Wiki

"The priority draft picks were first introduced in the 1993 AFL Draft as a special assistance rule to aid teams that perform poorly to obtain additional early draft selections. In recent years this has led to accusations that teams that are not in finals contention are happy to lose games at the end of the season to earn the additional selection.[4] In 2005 the AFL changed the rules such that from the 2006 AFL Draft the priority selection would be awarded between the first and second round, unless the team had performed poorly over two consecutive seasons, in which case it would receive an additional selection before the first round.[5]"

[Zed]

Blight cleared the decks and we started again

He got rid of the Wakelins - who actually could play a bit. Shane was always played out of position as a forward. Yeah, sure we got pick #4 for Darryl which brought us Hamill but still I would have found a way to keep Darryl.

Blight also brought a lot of rubbish into the club - i cant recall them all .. Mark Gale from Freo, Capuano, some Richmond/Collingwood reject whose name escapes me. I'm sure there were others we got stuck with.

[PaytonPlace]

Blight cleared the decks and we started again

He got rid of the Wakelins - who actually could play a bit. Shane was always played out of position as a forward. Yeah, sure we got pick #4 for Darryl which brought us Hamill but still I would have found a way to keep Darryl.

Blight also brought a lot of rubbish into the club - i cant recall them all .. Mark Gale from Freo, Capuano, some Richmond/Collingwood reject whose name escapes me. I'm sure there were others we got stuck with.

Robert Powell?

It was my first 1/2 year supporting St Kilda when Blighty was there for a minute and a bit - actually landed to live here the day he got sacked...spent a lot of that year trying to learn the clubs history!

Becca

[spert]

I just remembered, D Wakelin is another on the long list of players who left us and went on to play in a premiership elsewhere (P.A.). It would be good if we could buck our history and learn to identify potential premiership players and develop them, rather than send them elsewhere where they can realise their true potential...jeez.

[ausfatcat]

I just remembered, D Wakelin is another on the long list of players who left us and went on to play in a premiership elsewhere (P.A.). It would be good if we could buck our history and learn to identify potential premiership players and develop them, rather than send them elsewhere where they can realise their true potential...jeez.

we traded him for Hamill basicly

[Dr Spaceman]

I just remembered, D Wakelin is another on the long list of players who left us and went on to play in a premiership elsewhere (P.A.). It would be good if we could buck our history and learn to identify potential premiership players and develop them, rather than send them elsewhere where they can realise their true potential...jeez.

we traded him for Hamill basicly

And gave away (delisted) Shane for nothing.

[ralphsmith]

I don't think we have much to learn.

We missed out on 2 flags with ounces of luck that didn't swing our way.

We have done almost everything right.

MY MAIN concern is the drafting and persistence with players who are so blatantly below AFL standard. And in fact...that's a huge problem. So i'm contradicting myself there.

In fact one could argue we lost the 2009 grand final because our players couldn't kick goals properly.

[Con Gorozidis]

I have never been a member of the pro-GT lobby but I still don't understand what he ever did wrong or why people turned him on.
He is a Saints man through and through.

[Scollop]

We define great coaches by their legacy and the teams that they mould and the longevity of their teams reign of success. Ross's constant emphasis on negativity has worn this group out. Instead of inspiring them to greatness, I truly believe he has wasted our chances of success and we made a mistake in appointing this bloke. Think long and hard about the absolute potential of the players named in the article posted here by saintbrat;

http://www.stanalves.com.au/articleContent.aspx?id=257

I love this line; "In late 2006, a senior coach from another club said coaching the St Kilda list was akin to being offered sex with Elle Macpherson."

The Rossy lovers and peddlers of the myth regarding our list prior to Lyon taking over should have a reread of history. How can people have bought the bs that Ross was a great coach. Did he fail to find the best positions for some of our players? Did he fail to get the best out of St Kildas best players? I mean if you think about it, we haven't been able to get our core group of players to improve and maintain peak form at the same time and match the improvement and form of our competitors. That's what the Swans, Cats, Hawks and Magpies have been able to do. I'm gonna sing this line over and over; Ross Lyon failed.

The 'indefensible' Rossy boy is that you - yes you - failed!!! Say it Ross!!! Go on, admit it.

And another thing Ross; stick your constant hammering of the playing group and your negative words about your players efforts, and your negativity about what went wrong with the execution of your perfect instructions, right up your imperfect arse. Infact Rossy boy.. it might go a long way to fixing your sissy walk!!