No chance, the clown is a one trick pony, which teams like Geelong and Collingwood have worked out a long time ago. Would not know a new game plan even if it was handed to him on a silver platter.
Adios a$$hole.
Hands up if you think Ross will land a flag at Freo
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young players: morabito, fyfe, roberton, suban, hill, clarke, deboer, mayne, van berlo, ibbotson, anthony
mid-age players: barlow, silvagni, mitch clark, ballantyne, lower, broughton, mzungu, griffin
experienced players: mundy, duffield, sandilands, pavlich, mcpharlin
that's a pretty solid core. he should be very close to a premiership in five years with that group, all things considered.
if not - then we can go on about how he's a s*** coach. but considering what he achieved with a relatively bog-standard group at the saints, it's hard to say that yet.
mid-age players: barlow, silvagni, mitch clark, ballantyne, lower, broughton, mzungu, griffin
experienced players: mundy, duffield, sandilands, pavlich, mcpharlin
that's a pretty solid core. he should be very close to a premiership in five years with that group, all things considered.
if not - then we can go on about how he's a s*** coach. but considering what he achieved with a relatively bog-standard group at the saints, it's hard to say that yet.
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bigcarl
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I dunno about that. Inherited a very good young core when he came in 2007 snd really should have won a couple of flags.bergholt wrote:considering what he achieved with a relatively bog-standard group at the saints, it's hard to say that yet.
Underachiever IMO, but I agree he's left us with a relatively bog-standard group.
Amazing that you have never once expressed that until he leaves. If it makes you feel better I suppose it is worth saying. Allan Jeans completely disagreed with that though. He couldnt believe that list made two GF'sbigcarl wrote:I dunno about that. Inherited a very good young core when he came in 2007 snd really should have won a couple of flags.bergholt wrote:considering what he achieved with a relatively bog-standard group at the saints, it's hard to say that yet.
Underachiever IMO, but I agree he's left us with a relatively bog-standard group.
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Johnny Member
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Batnoe wrote:No, you have to kick goals
That's what I think.
The 'ifs' with him going to Freo, are the exact same 'ifs' that we've been talking about if he stayed with the Saints.
If he can come up with a new game plan, then he could be successful.
If he can't, and he persists with his outdated one, then he's got no hope of winning the flag.
The thing that he does have, is that he can motivate a team to do exactly what he wants. He had a clear plan when he came to us, and after 2 years he had us playing it perfectly. That's clearly a strength of his. OR maybe the players he inherited were good learners and were desperate for that type of discipline? Time will tell.
But from where I sit, there's probably more evidence to suggest that he can't adapt. If 'play on all the time' was his answer to adapting his clearly outdated 2009-2010 style, then Freo are in trouble.
The other thing to remember is, that it took Lyon 2 full years and an injury free list to get his team to do what he wanted them to do.
So I don't know why people have Freo pencilled in for a flag this coming season or even the one after!
Learning the Lyon lock down style takes time. For some players, it's never actually clicks.
You've got to kick goals. He has proven that that isn't something he brings to the table. Unless that changes, he won't coach a flag ever.
Last edited by Johnny Member on Fri 16 Sep 2011 8:40am, edited 1 time in total.
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bigcarl
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That's not true at all and unlike you to misrepresent another poster. I've been consistent in saying he inherited a very good side.plugger66 wrote:Amazing that you have never once expressed that until he leaves. If it makes you feel better I suppose it is worth saying. Allan Jeans completely disagreed with that though. He couldnt believe that list made two GF'sbigcarl wrote:I dunno about that. Inherited a very good young core when he came in 2007 snd really should have won a couple of flags.bergholt wrote:considering what he achieved with a relatively bog-standard group at the saints, it's hard to say that yet.
Underachiever IMO, but I agree he's left us with a relatively bog-standard group.
Couldn't be bothered finding the numerous posts in which I've expressed that sentiment, but, trust me, I have.
I didnt say you said he didnt inherit a good side, I said I have never heard you say we underachieved. What about what Allan Jeans. You would think he knows a bit.bigcarl wrote:That's not true at all and unlike you to misrepresent another poster. I've been consistent in saying he inherited a very good side.plugger66 wrote:Amazing that you have never once expressed that until he leaves. If it makes you feel better I suppose it is worth saying. Allan Jeans completely disagreed with that though. He couldnt believe that list made two GF'sbigcarl wrote:I dunno about that. Inherited a very good young core when he came in 2007 snd really should have won a couple of flags.bergholt wrote:considering what he achieved with a relatively bog-standard group at the saints, it's hard to say that yet.
Underachiever IMO, but I agree he's left us with a relatively bog-standard group.
Couldn't be bothered finding the numerous posts in which I've expressed that sentiment, but, trust me, I have.
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bigcarl
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Certainly respected Jeans as a man of complete integrity. He would be horrified at what has happened.plugger66 wrote:I didnt say you said he didnt inherit a good side, I said I have never heard you say we underachieved. What about what Allan Jeans. You would think he knows a bit.
But who knows his motivations in saying what he said. Probably trying to hose down expectations. He was a very wise man.
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Johnny Member
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Great coach in what sense?dragit wrote:Great list, endless funds and resources.
They will be playing finals for a few years at the very least…
Great coach regardless of what he has done to us.
His results are very good. Not great, but very good. He was painfully close to having a 'great' record, but like everyone involved in losing sides, he can't avoid accountability for close losses where a game was there to be won.
His players stuffed up in the pre-season. So he didn't have great control over their off-field antics.
His recruitment was well below sub-par.
His development of kids certainly isn't great.
His ability to adapt his game plan isn't great.
So really, in my opinion he can't be called a great coach. If he'd won a flag, then he could have been.
But because he didn't, and on top of that has been well below great in areas listed above, he's been a good coach, who in my opinion could well have been on the verge of becoming a very ordinary one.
He might just be a Pagan without the silverware.
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Dal_Santos_Gal
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Johnny Member
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At the risk of 'shooting Bambi' or however GT puts it, can you take Jeans' list management advice that seriously?plugger66 wrote: I didnt say you said he didnt inherit a good side, I said I have never heard you say we underachieved. What about what Allan Jeans. You would think he knows a bit.
I mean, coaches can be outdated after 2 seasons these days! Jeans hasn't coached for 20 years!
Certainly not intending to disrespect Jeans here, but would have clubs been knocking on his door for list mangement advice?
They'd certainly be up for some people motiviation and inspiration from who was said to be a great person, but I personnally I wouldn't take his opinion on modern day lists any more seriously thatn I'd take yours or the bloke at the local TAB who chews my ear off about the footy every time I see him!
My opinion....
He inherited an incredibly good core of players. The fringe of the list was frayed and needed attention. No matter who took over, or even if Thomas stayed, that would have had to have been addressed.
All lists go through that stage, so it's not a huge drama.
It took him 2 years to get the team to click. So he didn't break records with turning the lists around.
He got the players fit most importantly, and added recycled players with experience to an already great core.
By doing that, he probably fast tracked the group - but also fast tracked the decline of the overall list by not adding long term improvement to it.
So basically, if the list right now is average or no good - it's Lyon's fault. I hate how people pity him for having to work with such a weak list! He built it over 4-5 years! It was his!
The 'top 6' that Lyon coached to Grand Finals, was as good as any in the comp. Better than nearly all.
The 'middle 6' was above average - but not outstanding. This was possible why the list appeared 'average' to most people.
But the 'bottom 6' was better than just about all of the comp's 'bottom 6'. The reason for that is, that he recruited blokes who were known 'bottom 6' players, but had the mature body and mind to be able to play a lesser their role better than an 18yo kid. Credit to Lyon, he gave the 'bottom 6' jobs, where their weaknesses weren't exploited. If he had a tough, fit , disciplined bloke who couldn't kick 0 then his role didn't include kicking! So rather than trying to recruit talented 'bottom 6' players, he coached the 'bottom 6' up a notch.
Great coaching. But.....the 'bottom 6' guys that he coached so well, were never going to be 'top 6' players of the future. So again, he chose this option for short term gain over long term gain.
Right now, because he topped up again with Polo and is only now giving games to the young blokes, the list looks really ordinary because he's not getting the output from the 'top 6' that he once was, and no one that he recruited or developed is pushing their way into the 'top 6'.
And that's entirely his fault. It's not gross neglect neccessarily, but it's the result of a certain recruitment strategy that was always going to leave us in this position.
Last edited by Johnny Member on Fri 16 Sep 2011 9:09am, edited 1 time in total.
I wasnt talking about RL's list management. I was talking about his coaching once we had the list in place and that is when Allan Jeans said that list should not have made two GF's. If we are talking list management it is obvious to me RL made a decision that the Saints had 2-3 years to win a flag and he made a decision to get more top up players to do that. If we won one it would have been a fantastic decision but we didnt and now it is our time to depart the top of the ladder. Even if we got all young guys we probably still would not have won a flag but we would probably be in a slightly better pposition now. Probably not better though because apart from the Lovett pick the rest where speculative picks.Johnny Member wrote:At the risk of 'shooting Bambi' or however GT puts it, can you take Jeans' list management advice that seriously?plugger66 wrote: I didnt say you said he didnt inherit a good side, I said I have never heard you say we underachieved. What about what Allan Jeans. You would think he knows a bit.
I mean, coaches can be outdated after 2 seasons these days! Jeans hasn't coached for 20 years!
Certainly not intending to disrespect Jeans here, but would have clubs been knocking on his door for list mangement advice?
They'd certainly be up for some people motiviation and inspiration from who was said to be a great person, but I personnally I wouldn't take his opinion on modern day lists any more seriously thatn I'd take yours or the bloke at the local TAB who chews my ear off about the footy every time I see him!
My opinion....
He inherited an incredibly good core of players. The fringe of the list was frayed and needed attention. No matter who took over, or even if Thomas stayed, that would have had to have been addressed.
All lists go through that stage, so it's not a huge drama.
It took him 2 years to get the team to click. So he didn't break records with turning the lists around.
He got the players fit most importantly, and added recycled players with experience to an already great core.
By doing that, he probably fast tracked the group - but also fast tracked the decline of the overall list by not adding long term improvement to it.
So basically, if the list right now is average or no good - it's Lyon's fault. I hate how people pity him for having to work with such a weak list! He built it over 4-5 years! It was his!
The 'top 6' that Lyon coached to Grand Finals, was as good as any in the comp. Better than nearly all.
The 'middle 6' was above average - but not outstanding.
But the 'bottom 6' was better than just about all of the comp's 'bottom 6'. The reason for that is, that he recruited blokes who were known 'bottom 6' players, but had the mature body and mind to be able to play a lesser their role better than an 18yo kid.
Right now, because he topped up again with Polo and is only now giving games to the young blokes, the list looks really ordinary because he's not getting the output from the 'top 6' that he once was.
And that's entirely his fault. It's not gross neglect neccessarily, but it's the result of a certain recruitment strategy that was always going to leave us in this position.
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spert
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Oner trick pony, and the trick almost worked for us. Lyon's main deficiencies are player development and offensive coaching, so unless he learns some new tricks over summer, all we will see is a more disciplined Freo who will win a couple more games, and otherwise much of the same. The mindset at Freo is not like at Melbourne clubs, as other Freo coaches discovered. Could be a highly-paid WA holiday for Lyon with no big outcome at the end -what players would trust him?
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Scollop
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This thread is a waste of time..just like the years Lyon was with our great club. His legacy will be one of a man who could not get the best out of a team with A) a half dozen top 5 draft picks; B) a team with a relatively young playing list when he came on board - Cats and Saints were pretty much equal in their development in 04/05, yet Cats did the job and got 2 flags - Hawks and Pies overtook us and have kept developing new players. C) a team thad had already competed in 2 pre-lims. D) a team that had its core group of stars signed up and committed largely by the actions and player management from the previous coach.
These are not my fanciful opinions, these are facts. It is a myth to think that R Lyon is the main reason we played off in Grand Finals. The credit is all with the players. I love our captain and I love our players. I grew to hate Lyon because of his inactions and because of his game plan and because of his lack of development and lack of opportunities provided to debutants. I have not seen a debutant come into the backline and be taught and motivated and assisted to practice the art of defence. We need to constantly bring in new players and I have not seen Ross develop/nurture/define any new forward in 5 years either!!
The only flag ross will land is a flag for a suburban soccer club...
These are not my fanciful opinions, these are facts. It is a myth to think that R Lyon is the main reason we played off in Grand Finals. The credit is all with the players. I love our captain and I love our players. I grew to hate Lyon because of his inactions and because of his game plan and because of his lack of development and lack of opportunities provided to debutants. I have not seen a debutant come into the backline and be taught and motivated and assisted to practice the art of defence. We need to constantly bring in new players and I have not seen Ross develop/nurture/define any new forward in 5 years either!!
The only flag ross will land is a flag for a suburban soccer club...
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bigcarl
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