Is RL really the right man for coach?

[joffaboy]

Now the hysterics has died down is RL really the right coach for the Saints.

Lets face it, he took the core of a group put together by Grant Thomas and the AFL (high dp's) added some plodder "role players", instigated a ultra defensive, forward press, game plan (which has since been overtaken), and not developed any new players (due to obvious circumstances).

He is coming into his fifth season at the club, and the list looks decidedly shabby and our chance at a flag is gone for the time being.

Under Lyon, our recruiting has been ordinary, we got SFA for Luke Ball, and because we had no depth when Lenny went down, we had nobody sufficently experienced to be our in an under player (Steven and Armo tried hard, and Polo tried but really, to kids and a journeyman )

Our skills are appalling, our footspeed is ordinary, our kicking for goal terrible.

Why has Lyon not improved these aspects of the game (cj and peake have been brought in and Lovett was quick but really their deficiencies cancels out their strong points and speed - two more "role players").

Lyon has had four years to improve our players skills and I just cant see it. Even in 2009 and 2010 it was our structure and adherence to game plan more than skills that had us challenging for the flag.

Our forward line is now dependent on a 31 y.o. small forward to kick the bulk of our goals. Riewoldt is being killed by the flood/press and is being run into the ground. No wonder he cant kick a goal when he gets the flipping thing, he has had to run 150 metres on three leads almost every time.

Where is the development of our forwards? Where is the chop out for Milne and Riewoldt? Gamble, hardly, Schneider, up and down like a fiddlers elbow, Kosi? Hmmmmm

Stanley, Archer, Johnson and Walsh are all forward who got four games between them at the start of the year then dropped or in Tommys case didn't even get the chance to be dropped.

Why was this so?

Ross Lyon has superior strength in his gameplan and gameday coaching. The experts seem to think he is one of the best.

But, as we saw this year, you cant win games with gameplans alone. if you cant kick, run, or score as we showed this year it doesn't matter.

Can Lyon address our deficiencies with our current list? Hardly.

Doe he deserve the chance to develop the list, get our players to hit targets, and score goals?

Well probably, he has currency from his two GF attempts.

But we are now going into unchartered waters. Lyon has used and added to an already established list, can he rebuild and develop one?

[borderbarry]

We are about to find out!
I just hope that we only trade for draft picks and fall back into the trap of picking up rejects.

[NoMore]

i would like to say thats a sensible post but me putting my name to it is not going to help ur cause.

They are all valid points but i suppose we can look at the negatives constantly. Grant Thomas had the same list probably a better one and couldn't get them to one grand final. It would be easy to argue that 04/05 was almost the best list this club has ever assembled and yet he couldn't get there. Ross took a list which had been on the decline since 06 to within a kick of 2 flags. The list has been on the decline since 06 though and it worries me that we haven't seemed to draft well since Ross has been there.

In saying that i have much higher hopes for last years draft crop as well as steven and Armo eventually showing there true form. Would be nice to see Armo developed as a midfielder rather than a plodding forward in the same vien as McQualter

[matrix]

[shmic_s]

I think we will see a few young guys gets more of a go next year.

Johnson, Simpkin, Stanely, Ledger, Lynch, Siposs, Cripps, Walsh, Winmar.
Our short term future rests on these players. If they can each play 10 odd games, it would go along way to building our depth.

Lets hope that these players skills can handle the pressure of AFL. Having Cripps, Winmar or Siposs in the team using the ball well, the skill level will increase.

Going to be an interesting year, 2012. If no young guys come up, Ross might have wished he took the Melbourne gig.

[saintspremiers]

Our game style is boring to watch.

That's my beef about Ross!

[shmic_s]

Our game style is boring to watch.

That's my beef about Ross!

When its not working.

[NoMore]

Our game style is boring to watch.

That's my beef about Ross!

Agree

We may look back on this time the same way that North look back on the 90's
A really successful period but we failed to cash in because we are un-marketable.

[fingers]

Now you bring it up. Couldn't you have said something before Ross decided to stay on

[meher baba]

JB, I've already commented on this in other threads.

I believe we have 1-2 more seasons to keep trying to win a flag. I know many on here believe our list has had it, but they should first of all have a look at how the Cats have been going this season with pretty much their usual list - minus GA jnr - refreshed by a couple of emerging young talents.

For those next 1-2 years, Ross is clearly the man for the job IMO. I don't think he needs to change much at all: keep blooding the younger players, see if we can get an extra regular first team midfielder and, more importantly, an extra goal-kicking forward (Walsh?????).

Imagining that Hayes and Gwilt are fully back and firing by the finals and that Walsh and one of Ledger/Cripps comes on, I am looking at a team of something like.

Dempster Dawson Clarke
Goddard Fisher Gwilt
Montagna Dal Gram
Peake Riewoldt Schneider
Milne Walsh Armitage
McEvoy Hayes Steven
IC: Kosi Cripps Jones Gilbert (if he's still with us)

Pushing for a spot: Ledger Siposs Winmar
Backup Blake Ray Polo Gamble (if they are all still with us)

While such a lineup wouldn't be favourite to win a premiership, I believe it's a show. But it's all strongly dependent on Lenny and, to some extent, Gwilt getting back to something like their usual form by August/September, or else in 2013, and also on our not suffering any serious injuries to key players.

The lack of a backup ruckman beyond Kosi and Blake is also a concern. We probably need to try to pick up a reject from another club if we can.

Beyond 2013, we are talking more or less a total rebuild, with most of our current stars - Lenny, Milne, Fisher, Riewoldt, Kosi, Dal, Joey - either retired or close to retirement (or even, in the case of BJ, who is a bit younger, trading him to a more likely club for some early draft picks).

We would also expect to have farewelled quite a few of: Blake, Peake, Dempster, CJ, Gram, Ray and possibly even Schneider.

The aim would then be to rebuild as quickly as possible and also to switch to a more attacking style of play in order to win more fans. It isn't tenable for us to keep playing our current style and lose the majority of our games: members would leave in droves and the very survival of our club would be threatened.

At this point, I think it would be best for Lyon to move on. I do not believe that Lyon has the toolkit necessary to coach in any style other than the one he currently prefers. He said at the start of 2011 that we would see a more attacking style, but we got more or less the same as we ever have.

A young coach with a fresh style would develop with a young, fresh lineup.

That's what I'd like to see.

[bigcarl]

Good post jb. You raise many valid points, most particularly about our shambolic forward line and structure ... or lack of it.

And good answer whoever said "we're about to find out."

[NoMore]

Agree Baba

We cannot afford to lose the way we play or we will definitly threaten our own survival. All these people who say if you don't love the club then F*** off! Well with out all those people who are supporters or watchers of the saints without being crazy devoted the club will fold. I'm not a member anymore simply coz i can't get to the games often enough due to other commitments and can't justify the money as i am a Uni Student but i still go and pay at the gate every chance i get. I have to admit the way we play often has me leaving the game even after we win wondering whether it is really worth the money to watch them. I have mates who used to come to lots of games with me when we played under Grant Thomas. They used to love the way we played. They are not Saints supporters. Just loved footy. Now not only will they not come to the footy with me they won't even go when there own side plays St kilda.

This should be real worry for the administration because in the end the side is in the entertainment business. Currently we are not entertaining

[plugger66]

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[joffaboy]

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[joffaboy]

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[Con Gorozidis]

I think we will know the answer in 12 months time.
but up until now hes done well. could have done better? probably made a few blews. you cant ignore our endeavour though. most clubs would love to have players that tried like our guys do.
but our player development in the last 5 years is really diabolical.
we have the worst 'youf' in the league by miles.

[SaintPav]

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[desertsaint]

JB time to change your sig picture - you've obviously had it way too long and it's working it's spell on you!

[The Sainter]

Joffa, best post I have read on here for a long time. You are completely right in all aspects. Also someone was comparing our list with Geelongs. They have wonderful kicking skills, we have the worst in the league for starters.
Our coach said it may be time to look at our youth, who do you think he would drop from Saturday's team to make way? Dawson, Ray, Gram, Clarke, Blake, plus the 2 worse kicks in the team, Gilbert and Jones? Dawson is very average for a player who has not been dropped, Ray has been good value but looks spent, Clarke gives away stupid free kicks ( he often seems to be in Noddyland ) Gram's refusal to go in hard to help team mates plus his poor kicking most times means he surely can be replaced. Blake has been great over many years but his time is up and Gilbert and Jones will always have a go but let themselves and the team down with atrocious kicking skills.
Saying that the seven I named are near certain to be there next year if Ross is still coach

[plugger66]

Joffa, best post I have read on here for a long time. You are completely right in all aspects. Also someone was comparing our list with Geelongs. They have wonderful kicking skills, we have the worst in the league for starters.
Our coach said it may be time to look at our youth, who do you think he would drop from Saturday's team to make way? Dawson, Ray, Gram, Clarke, Blake, plus the 2 worse kicks in the team, Gilbert and Jones? Dawson is very average for a player who has not been dropped, Ray has been good value but looks spent, Clarke gives away stupid free kicks ( he often seems to be in Noddyland ) Gram's refusal to go in hard to help team mates plus his poor kicking most times means he surely can be replaced. Blake has been great over many years but his time is up and Gilbert and Jones will always have a go but let themselves and the team down with atrocious kicking skills.
Saying that the seven I named are near certain to be there next year if Ross is still coach

I have a feeling JB completely disagrees with you.

[joffaboy]

Joffa, best post I have read on here for a long time. You are completely right in all aspects. Also someone was comparing our list with Geelongs. They have wonderful kicking skills, we have the worst in the league for starters.
Our coach said it may be time to look at our youth, who do you think he would drop from Saturday's team to make way? Dawson, Ray, Gram, Clarke, Blake, plus the 2 worse kicks in the team, Gilbert and Jones? Dawson is very average for a player who has not been dropped, Ray has been good value but looks spent, Clarke gives away stupid free kicks ( he often seems to be in Noddyland ) Gram's refusal to go in hard to help team mates plus his poor kicking most times means he surely can be replaced. Blake has been great over many years but his time is up and Gilbert and Jones will always have a go but let themselves and the team down with atrocious kicking skills.
Saying that the seven I named are near certain to be there next year if Ross is still coach

I have a feeling JB completely disagrees with you.

Dont. I believe what I wrote as the Op to be pretty close to the mark.

I firmly believe that RL is a very good gameday coach who has a very demanding and well crafted gameplan.

I believe that he has the credits to be given the opportunity to draft some talent and develop the team while some of the core stars are still about to have another tilt.

Along the lines of Malthouse did after twin GF failures in 2002-03.

Does this mean I like the defensive gameplan? Not necessarily. However I do like the winning.

Do i like the fact that i almost had two coronary's watching the GF's in 09 and 10 and the fact that our gameplan ensured close games? Not necessarily, however I liked the fact we GOT to the two GF's and with an ounce of luck could be back to back premiers right now.

there is much I dont like about Lyon. Much that can be critisised. What I like is his results and what I see from Lyon as a person.

He deserves a go. He has earned it. However I would like to see an increase in our skills and injection of youth. I dont want to see a procession of Polo's and Attards for the next three years (in all due respect to those guys).

[spert]

I admire RLs' efforts to get us back on track-sort of, this season, but there's no excuse for shocking skills at this level, and the poor depth of the playing list is another concern he must wear. There's still major problems with the forward line functionality, and problems with clearance work, and that is one of RL's big problems to try and sort out. Let's see how the team performs over the next season and then we will have a better idea

[NoMore]

Joffa, best post I have read on here for a long time. You are completely right in all aspects. Also someone was comparing our list with Geelongs. They have wonderful kicking skills, we have the worst in the league for starters.
Our coach said it may be time to look at our youth, who do you think he would drop from Saturday's team to make way? Dawson, Ray, Gram, Clarke, Blake, plus the 2 worse kicks in the team, Gilbert and Jones? Dawson is very average for a player who has not been dropped, Ray has been good value but looks spent, Clarke gives away stupid free kicks ( he often seems to be in Noddyland ) Gram's refusal to go in hard to help team mates plus his poor kicking most times means he surely can be replaced. Blake has been great over many years but his time is up and Gilbert and Jones will always have a go but let themselves and the team down with atrocious kicking skills.
Saying that the seven I named are near certain to be there next year if Ross is still coach

I have a feeling JB completely disagrees with you.

Dont. I believe what I wrote as the Op to be pretty close to the mark.

I firmly believe that RL is a very good gameday coach who has a very demanding and well crafted gameplan.

I believe that he has the credits to be given the opportunity to draft some talent and develop the team while some of the core stars are still about to have another tilt.

Along the lines of Malthouse did after twin GF failures in 2002-03.

Does this mean I like the defensive gameplan? Not necessarily. However I do like the winning.

Do i like the fact that i almost had two coronary's watching the GF's in 09 and 10 and the fact that our gameplan ensured close games? Not necessarily, however I liked the fact we GOT to the two GF's and with an ounce of luck could be back to back premiers right now.

there is much I dont like about Lyon. Much that can be critisised. What I like is his results and what I see from Lyon as a person.

He deserves a go. He has earned it. However I would like to see an increase in our skills and injection of youth. I dont want to see a procession of Polo's and Attards for the next three years (in all due respect to those guys).

Joffa i think you sum up the feelings of almost all St kilda supporters here. This is one of the best treads i have read on here.

[meher baba]

someone was comparing our list with Geelongs. They have wonderful kicking skills, we have the worst in the league for starters.

But, in the 2010 QF, we beat a possibly superior Geelong lineup to their current side with a team not significantly different to the one I listed above.

Our skills at passing by foot haven't been up to scratch throughout Lyon's regime. And our kicking for goal - even under the roof at the Dome - has been basically shithouse for the best part of a decade.

But we have other strengths. It isn't all about kicking skills, by a long stretch.

I really do get the sense that - apart from a few more sensible posters like Sainter K - the bunch of you have dropped your bundle big time simply because we lost a reasonably tight final on Saturday night to a pretty damn good team which is coming good at the right end of the season (and which I would be inclined to back to make the PF and which might even give the Pies a bit of a scare in that game).

We are still one of the best teams going around. We did admirably well without Hayes and Gwilt. If the Pies had lost, say, Pendlebury and O'Brien for the season, they'd be struggling a bit too.