Why are we too old to be a flag contender?

[BackFromUSA]

Milburn 35 in April
Scarlett 33 in June
Mooney 32 now
Ottens 32 in January
Wojcinski 31 now
Ling 31 in February
Hunt 30 in March
Enright 30 now
Podsiadly 30 now
Chapman 30 in November
Corey 30 in November
Johnson 29 in July
Kelly 28 in December
Bartel 28 in December
Lonergan 28 in May
Mackie 27 now

... and contending for another Premiership.

Compare that to our core mature players:

Hayes 32 in January
Milne 32 in March
Fisher 30 in July
Riewoldt 29 in October
Koschitzke 29 now (just turned)
Peake 29 in July
Montagna 28 in November
Dempster 28 in January
Dal Santo 28 in February
Jones 28 in February
Gram 28 in April
Schneider 28 in May
Goddard 27 in May
Ray 26 in March
Gwilt 25 now

What this says is that we are 2 years behind Geelong (and always have been) in terms of timing - which by my calculations means that we SHOULD have at least 2 more years where we can win a Premiership.

We should have won 2009. Could have won 2010.

Our 2011 was Geelongs 2010 - a let down for a sore and sorry group after multiple Grand Final clashes - the difference being they snared 2 of their 3 grand finals and we lost both our Grand Finals.

2012 and 2013 are still wide open for us.

Get our list healthy again and with the mid 20s group of Dawson, Gilbert, Polo, Gamble stepping up ...

And the early 20s group of Geary, Armitage, McEvoy and Steven taking yet another step ...

And some of the genuinely talented youngsters such as Ledger, Cripps, Siposs, Simpkin, Stanley, Smith and Walsh are set to make inroads ...

And others may surprise.

Bring on 2012.

[Con Gorozidis]

Agree. I think we have one last crack at in 2012. After that we will have to go total re build from 2013 .

[Teflon]

Great post BFROMUSA - have had these same thoughts.

What Geelong are doing is MAXIMISING their top, older core - why cant we?

BUT what we HAVE to do is massively improve that middle tier:

Ray, Polo, Jones, Clarke - our quality here IMHO is not as good as the Cats and they have at the same time added quality youth in Menzel (I like the look of Christian ? too).

Totally agree, we seem to have always been 2 years behind Cats......wasnt their 2006 the horror year before they bounced back? ours was 2007?

Inject some quality youth.
SMART recruiting - DO scour the WAFL/SANFL/VFL and look for only those with footskills AND some dash.
IF we trade a name.....get as high quality pick we can an keep it.

We can absolutely be top 4 next year IF we are smar this off season....I suspect from what Ive seen from Lyon at the loss Saturday....the hunger is still there.

[noreason41]

Honestly? - You didn't even put Selwood

Yeah, the core of Geelongs group is of a similar age to ours, and they finished second this year, so why shouldn't we be able to do the same?

If you go through the names/honors of each Geelong player, and compare it to the St Kilda players, you might just find that the difference is more to do with the abilities of certain players.
IE: We have only a couple players in our team, that would make the Geelong team compared to who they have.

I look through the list you put down, and i would have almost every Geelong player in the team if i could. Peake/Gram or Kelly? Ottens or Kosi? Montagna or Bartel? Chapman or Dal? Ling or Jones?

And then you realise, that this Geelong team is actually one of the best in a very long time.

[Griggsy]

Definately one more crack at the premiership left. After that I don't see us keeping up with the younger teams on the rise.

But also eyes need to be set on the future, need a good foundation for a quick turn around. The last thing we need is to be a middle of the ladder club for 5years only to drop down after that.

[bigred]

We need three or four first or second year players to come through and push for selection every week.

Our list tails off so quickly.

And we WILL lose a few of the mid level names this year.

[saintspremiers]

Yes but their group won 2 flags.

It's all in the head.

Our boys were jellyheads for te first 8 rounds.

Also, Geelong's scandals have not been as bad as ours off field.

Plus, they were robbed of Ablett which freed up their salary cap significantly.

[Johnny Member]

It's our game plan that will be the issue. Unless it continues to evolve. There was a slight variation last year, but nowhere near enough.

[plugger66]

Age has nothing to do with it. We have been unlucky to win one but we havent and it effects us. Geelong have won 2 and mentally think they can always win. Age wont be the reason we cant win its about ability and depth. We have no depth at all even though people here think we do.

[ralphsmith]

Because Geelongs old players are much more skillful and football minded than our old hacks who struggle to kick, run and take the game on.

Simple.

[faircatfan]

Honestly? - You didn't even put Selwood

Yeah, the core of Geelongs group is of a similar age to ours, and they finished second this year, so why shouldn't we be able to do the same?

If you go through the names/honors of each Geelong player, and compare it to the St Kilda players, you might just find that the difference is more to do with the abilities of certain players.
IE: We have only a couple players in our team, that would make the Geelong team compared to who they have.

I look through the list you put down, and i would have almost every Geelong player in the team if i could. Peake/Gram or Kelly? Ottens or Kosi? Montagna or Bartel? Chapman or Dal? Ling or Jones?

And then you realise, that this Geelong team is actually one of the best in a very long time.

I think? there are 9 all Australians in that cat list, not too sure of how many there re in that Sainst group. Its true age doesnt have such a huge effect, but ablitity does, i think thats probably the major difference.

[St. Luke]

Lets face another fact. We could have won 2 Premierships in consecutive years recently. We were in both (apart from the bullcr@p GF replay) games up to our ears, one within a kick, and the other we had the lead up until the last 5 minutes. People are squealing we aren't good enough, have never been good enough and try and compare the fact that one of those Grand Finals went to Geelong, the other to a team that got a second crack at a bunch of guys who spent themselves nearly beating them in the first GF.

Yeah, I think we're good enough for 2012. We DO need some tweaking. Ross is the man to do so. Let him swing the axe, make the plans and rely on us to do what we do, support the ones wearing the jumper on game day.

[Saints 2012]

Cats list much more skillful, mentally tough and Cats have a stronger game plan.

I believe their is still a lot of opportunity for our list to improve next year, many players down on form this year, how many A grade players do we have????

Would any of our players be in the top 10 midfieldsers/on ballers of the competition? remember Goddard spends more thean 50% of his time on half back.

[Johnny Member]

Lets face another fact. We could have won 2 Premierships in consecutive years recently. We were in both (apart from the bullcr@p GF replay) games up to our ears, one within a kick, and the other we had the lead up until the last 5 minutes. People are squealing we aren't good enough, have never been good enough and try and compare the fact that one of those Grand Finals went to Geelong, the other to a team that got a second crack at a bunch of guys who spent themselves nearly beating them in the first GF.

Yeah, I think we're good enough for 2012. We DO need some tweaking. Ross is the man to do so. Let him swing the axe, make the plans and rely on us to do what we do, support the ones wearing the jumper on game day.

I think it's more than tweaking. The game plan needs an overhaul.

We need to manage to keep the amazing defence, but no longer at the expense of kicking goals.

[saintly]

we don't have as much skill as geelong.

[Teflon]

Age has nothing to do with it. We have been unlucky to win one but we havent and it effects us. Geelong have won 2 and mentally think they can always win. Age wont be the reason we cant win its about ability and depth. We have no depth at all even though people here think we do.

Correct.

Ofocurse we drop away quicker than Cats - they have greater depth by a mile and better quality to go with that.

BUT.......our top 6 Id back to get a game at Geelong:

Riewoldt>>>>Hawkings/Mooney
Milne>>Stokes/Christian
Goddard>>>>Wojinski
Hayes>>>>Ling
Fisher>>>Lonergan
Dal Santo>>>Kelly

Tell me Geelong wouldnt put them in their side??

I totally agree HAD we won 1 of those flags the mental lift for this playing group wouldve been enormous - we wouldnt be questioning game plans....we'd be saying it works with conviction. Dont underestimate the psychological effects of ALL that work for ultimately NO reward...yet so close.

We are right in the crunch time now - IF we improve this list this year with better BGraders than what we have - Im talking the Polo's, Rays, Clarkes, Jones, Peakes etc we will see marked improvement. We dont need to trade ALL these name to improve - combine some smart pick ups (and I would really look hard at VFL/SANFL/WAFL options for rookies etc) with an injection of youth (I think Ledger/Cripps could play 10-12 games each next year .....not to mention Stanley IF he shows something and Walsh, Sippos...and I havent given up on Lynch down back just yet..) and we can see that jump in skill level to support our top echelon.

What we must also have is a fit Riewoldt/Hayes. A gameplan that changes to enable greater scoring options - but again to me, this starts in the midfield via better ball use/spread capabilities IMHO because that will mean we move the ball quicker, cleaner and give our fwds genuine chances 1 out where we know they can compete. Ofcourse, we need another GENUINE fwd option to take some heat off Riewoldt but Im hoping Walsh/Sippos can do some good things here.

[St. Luke]

Lets face another fact. We could have won 2 Premierships in consecutive years recently. We were in both (apart from the bullcr@p GF replay) games up to our ears, one within a kick, and the other we had the lead up until the last 5 minutes. People are squealing we aren't good enough, have never been good enough and try and compare the fact that one of those Grand Finals went to Geelong, the other to a team that got a second crack at a bunch of guys who spent themselves nearly beating them in the first GF.

Yeah, I think we're good enough for 2012. We DO need some tweaking. Ross is the man to do so. Let him swing the axe, make the plans and rely on us to do what we do, support the ones wearing the jumper on game day.

I think it's more than tweaking. The game plan needs an overhaul.

We need to manage to keep the amazing defence, but no longer at the expense of kicking goals.

I agree with the game plan comments. Not only are we incredibly boring to watch (not that I mind if we're winning games ) but it leaves us vulnerable for the duration of the game. Normally we're never more than a few kicks in front. That gives an opposition hope.

It's not as if Ross is bored with the club, he's still got plenty to do in designing a game plan that'll make us more dangerous for the future.

Looking at Geelong, they've already got a fresh injection of youth that could see them in good stead for another few years. Both Geelong and Collingwood seem to keep blooding new players and creating a list who are hungry and willing enough to compete for selection. Ours players seem to only require a pulse to get a gig - it's the same old, same old. I'd definitely like to see some new faces given as much opportunity as some of our senior players have already been shown this season (and seasons past).

[Johnny Member]

we don't have as much skill as geelong.

But what changed from the 09 GF to now?

They lost Ablett.


Aside from that, they are better at playing their style of footy than we are, their guns are in better form, and they have a game plan that is more suited to the current game than we do.

We've shown that we can still keep most side to about 10 goals each week, but the really good sides we can't.

The reason for that is, is that the really good sides have worked out ways to score against stingy defences. They've altered their game plans so they can kick 14-15 goals against a really tight defence.

That's Ok for us, if we also alter our game plan to ensure we can kick 14-15 goals aswell. But we can't.

We either didn't alter it sufficiently, or did but we're still learning how to do it properly, or the alteration has been a failure.


Either way, Geelong and Collingwood are playing 'current successful footy', whereas we're still playing 'successful 2009 footy'.

[Johnny Member]

Lets face another fact. We could have won 2 Premierships in consecutive years recently. We were in both (apart from the bullcr@p GF replay) games up to our ears, one within a kick, and the other we had the lead up until the last 5 minutes. People are squealing we aren't good enough, have never been good enough and try and compare the fact that one of those Grand Finals went to Geelong, the other to a team that got a second crack at a bunch of guys who spent themselves nearly beating them in the first GF.

Yeah, I think we're good enough for 2012. We DO need some tweaking. Ross is the man to do so. Let him swing the axe, make the plans and rely on us to do what we do, support the ones wearing the jumper on game day.

I think it's more than tweaking. The game plan needs an overhaul.

We need to manage to keep the amazing defence, but no longer at the expense of kicking goals.

I agree with the game plan comments. Not only are we incredibly boring to watch (not that I mind if we're winning games ) but it leaves us vulnerable for the duration of the game. Normally we're never more than a few kicks in front. That gives an opposition hope.

It's not as if Ross is bored with the club, he's still got plenty to do in designing a game plan that'll make us more dangerous for the future.

Looking at Geelong, they've already got a fresh injection of youth that could see them in good stead for another few years. Both Geelong and Collingwood seem to keep blooding new players and creating a list who are hungry and willing enough to compete for selection. Ours players seem to only require a pulse to get a gig - it's the same old, same old. I'd definitely like to see some new faces given as much opportunity as some of our senior players have already been shown this season (and seasons past).

His biggest challenge, is to break the mindset about defence being the key.

It's clearly still, and always has been a major factor in winning flags. But right now, and I expect going forward aswell, offence is just as important.


The premier for the last 15 years has always been in the top 4 for Points Scored - the only one not to be, was Sydney.

You need to be in the top 4 for Defence (ie. Least Points Against), but history shows that you also need to be potent going forward yourself.

I worry that Lyon doesn't believe this. I worry that he still believes based on what happened in Sydney, that it's all about defence. I think he still believes that if you stop the opponent scoring, then you'll win.

If we rebuild in order to create a team that's all about defence again, I don't believe we'll go anywhere.

It's got to be about both.

[alex_quick]

firstly, take out mooney and milburn from that list. they won't play another game at geelong this season/ever.

yes, the cats are more skillful but we've always matched up well against them. we were right with them in the game midway through the season and we actually dominated them in round 1. if we can find a couple exciting youngsters like they did with christensen, menzel and duncun then we can get a good mix of young and old.

i think we have to be more attacking minded but at the same time, stick to what we do best and keep it tight on the defensive end. we are not without a sniff in 2012, that is for sure!