Raph Clarke = Gun

[maverick]

One swallow doesn't make a summer, but it was a good game.

Well done, Raph.

No but one bad mistake makes a chump apparently.

[The OtherThommo]

Doesnt make the comment at all approprite does it???

It doesnt help his cause in some people's eyes......

He annoys me, because i think he underachieves.......because of two reasons

He is physically courageou, but mentally a bit soft and relies on confidence for performance

He has never got his body to afl standards, therefore he struggles to cope with afl demands onthe body....it takes hard work in the off season....not aure he does it. Has he ever looked in ripping condition???

If you look back at Raph's first few years in the AFL system I reckon you can find a few clues as to his apparent lack of physical robustness.

When he came to us as an 18 year old it was off the back of 18 odd months without a rest. He was playing NT football, which was/is offset seasonally vs elsewhere. Then, in between NT seasons, he was at the AIS and playing. Part of this was due to him being regarded as the 'next big thing' from the indigenous ranks, off the back of playing promotional type games (e.g Carlton), at CHF as a skinny 16 y.o., leaping all over the joint, just like his brother was already doing with us in his first season. The whole system wanted a piece of him.

These days no 16-18 y.o. kid would be expected to endure such a regime so young. Noone would look to try and keep a physically immature kid up and working for so long, without a break.

When he got to us he was already tired. We then put him through the pre-season rigours, straight way, extending the duration of his breakless development. And, shock, horror, his body started to react.

We sought to build him up to a size reflecting his height, and what was perceived to be close to the major requirement to succeed in football at the time - body size and strength (but not necessarily what today is described as 'core strength').

This was around the same time we came out and said we would build BJ into the unstoppable hulk. He shot to 98-99 kgs, lost agility and speed, and plateaued for quite a while, until we twigged he'd got too big, and took bulk weight back off him. Nathan Buckley even went through the same build up then shed it phase, because his body rebelled and he started to struggle physically. This was around the time of Raph's development phase. Even though it is only a few years on, fitness and conditioning practices are far more attentive to the individual player's make up and capacities.

Meanwhile, Raph's body was stuggling to cope. Without recalling the specific periods, he had problems with his back, which is a reasonably reliable sign of too much, too soon, for the individual in question. He spent months being able to do little more than jog slow laps. His back problems then began to refer to his hamstrings, something that still lingers today (last year's season ending injury in the West was a hamstring tendon, I think). It was a hamstring late in a season opener vs Sydney I think, 3-4 years ago, after he was probably close to BOG.

Knowledgeable football people like Ross and Paul Roos didn't develop their 4 year apprenticeship theory without considering the evidence. While not all of that principle is based on the physical (Roos's comments about kids only playing offensive football), much of it is. How much, how quickly, can a young fella's body handle?

And, prior to a few years back, Raph was battling undiagnosed epilepsy. Anybody who understands anything about epilepsy knows it can manifest in numerous ways, none of them particularly beneficial to someone trying to establish themselves as an elite athlete. For instance, physical stress can be debilitating and cause spikes in aberrant brain activity - AFL training regime, anyone? And after any aberrant brain activity, there is another cycle of physical responses - like further loss of energy. Finally, after many years in the AFL system, including stints at the AIS as a kid, somebody decided to take a look at what may be debilitating Raph. Lo and behold, he has epilepsy.

Then comes the phase of establishing the right medication regime for the individual who has the condition. As with many such conditions this can be something that takes cycles to get right. The medication regime might work first time, or it may not. It may take changes of drug, or dosage, over trial cycles, to get the right balance between suppressing the spikes in brain activity and causing suppression of normal brain activity. Crikey, even some pain medications have labels that say 'this drug may cause drowsiness'. And this condition ain't as simple as a headache.

Some on here bleat about any suggestion of excuses for Raph's underachievement. There is a monster difference between displaying some understanding of matters that may contribute to an individual's performance, and 'excuses'. Reason, reasons, reasoning, reasonable, reasonableness - all derived.

I have thought this may be Raph's make or break year. But, none of that thinking has had anything to do with him being lazy, indigenous, not smart enough, poorly skilled etc, etc. It's all been to do with him struggling with continuity, because of a confluence of factors that have affected his physical robustness, thus far in his career. I've seen him play enough good football, including in finals (Collingwood at the G in '08, Dogs prelim '09) to know he can cut it at the highest level. I also believe he's extremely dedicated and well regarded by his peers, and those in charge (including Thomas when he was in charge).

And, I don't believe he is mentally soft. Like many, his confidence ebbs and flows. But, that has more to do with continuity than anything inherent in his make up. There are many who struggle without continuity, of both preparation and playing. There seems to be many wise heads who 'excuse' a poor season, or patch on (e.g.) not having a full preseason.

I just hope he can get the continuity he needs. He deserves it.

[stinger]

A person sitting next to me bagged him from the warm up to the bounce...

In the first quarter, i highlighted every posession......and mentioned at quarter time that raph was vying for BOG with Dal and Joey and Kosi....

Later in the game, when Raph was nearly caught with the ball, he referred to him as the slowest abbo in the game.....

Then when he dropped a marke at Hb he called hima stupid black c....

A poor human

yeah....heard it all before too unfortunately.....but when i have mentioned it on here i've virtually been called a liar.....sad state of affairs in this day and age..a guy plays his guts out for the club.....and the supporters.... and cops that sort of crap......this country actually appears to becoming less tolerant and more racist......

[stinger]

I just hope he can get the continuity he needs. He deserves it.

+1

[Thinline]

A person sitting next to me bagged him from the warm up to the bounce...

In the first quarter, i highlighted every posession......and mentioned at quarter time that raph was vying for BOG with Dal and Joey and Kosi....

Later in the game, when Raph was nearly caught with the ball, he referred to him as the slowest abbo in the game.....

Then when he dropped a marke at Hb he called hima stupid black c....

A poor human

Seriously, where on EARTH do these kinds of people come from?

Similar to the bogan up here at the Suns / Lions game who spent an entire evening referring Suns player Liam Patrick as 'midnight', Jarrod Harbrow as 'twilight' and if either made a mistake he'd cough up lines such as "you'll be back in Alice sucking goon with your buddies before you can blink."

He was eventually ejected.

Even so, it's just freakin sad that worms like this share oxygen with the rest of us..

[PJ]

He was eventually ejected.

This is part of our problem, we tend to just eject these morons or dismiss them as just ignorant. They need to be charged and made accountable for their comments.

On field the AFL have made huge inroads and all players understand that this is not acceptable but in the community we just let it go and we shouldn't.

[Stillwaiting]

A person sitting next to me bagged him from the warm up to the bounce...

In the first quarter, i highlighted every posession......and mentioned at quarter time that raph was vying for BOG with Dal and Joey and Kosi....

Later in the game, when Raph was nearly caught with the ball, he referred to him as the slowest abbo in the game.....

Then when he dropped a marke at Hb he called hima stupid black c....

A poor human

I feel sorry for Raph, that type of behavior is just offensive. The times I have heard that type of abuse I cringe, and I am embarrassed to here it as a Saints supporter.

[gringo]

They booed when he was subbed on , besides the Troy Schwartz incident, that was the worst piece of fans turning on their own I have witnessed. At least when inbreds comment to the people around them the rest of the football community don't realise what f.wit supporters we have.

[prwilkinson]

I love how the crowd went nuts when he slammed through that goal in the first term... Good times...

[dcstkfc]

They booed when he was subbed on , besides the Troy Schwartz incident, that was the worst piece of fans turning on their own I have witnessed. At least when inbreds comment to the people around them the rest of the football community don't realise what f.wit supporters we have.

Both shameful, shameful incidents. Cringeworthy episodes that made me less proud to be a Saints man.

[dcstkfc]

You can almost tell with Raph in the first 5-10 minutes of a game how he's going to go. Tonight he was confident, assured, and that goal in the 1st would have done wonders for his confidence. If he turns one over early or is fumbly - it seems to perpetuate throughout the game.

No doubt he's a confidence player. Very underrated offensively when he gets going.

Should be set loose on the wing IMO, but with Gwilt going down will probably be asked to shore up the defence ... not his natural role.

Is he a confidence player though? Maybe within games, but unfortunately he's never been able to string that confidence from one game to another with any consistency. For instance, he was very good in the 2009 Preliminary Final. Then followed it up with an ordinary Grand Final. Started 2011 well against Geelong on the back of a strong pre-season, then fell away to be dropped within weeks.

Unless he strings together 6 or so weeks of consistent footy like Gwilt did last year, and then builds it into a season, he will always be ridiculed, and will not have made the most of his potential.

Not to say that fans should do anything else but support him when at the ground.

[bigcarl]

You can almost tell with Raph in the first 5-10 minutes of a game how he's going to go. Tonight he was confident, assured, and that goal in the 1st would have done wonders for his confidence. If he turns one over early or is fumbly - it seems to perpetuate throughout the game.

No doubt he's a confidence player. Very underrated offensively when he gets going.

Should be set loose on the wing IMO, but with Gwilt going down will probably be asked to shore up the defence ... not his natural role.

Is he a confidence player though? Maybe within games, but unfortunately he's never been able to string that confidence from one game to another with any consistency. For instance, he was very good in the 2009 Preliminary Final. Then followed it up with an ordinary Grand Final. Started 2011 well against Geelong on the back of a strong pre-season, then fell away to be dropped within weeks.

Unless he strings together 6 or so weeks of consistent footy like Gwilt did last year, and then builds it into a season, he will always be ridiculed, and will not have made the most of his potential.

Not to say that fans should do anything else but support him when at the ground.

I thought theothertommo made some very good points about continuity in this thread. It's worth a read if you haven't already.

[dcstkfc]

You can almost tell with Raph in the first 5-10 minutes of a game how he's going to go. Tonight he was confident, assured, and that goal in the 1st would have done wonders for his confidence. If he turns one over early or is fumbly - it seems to perpetuate throughout the game.

No doubt he's a confidence player. Very underrated offensively when he gets going.

Should be set loose on the wing IMO, but with Gwilt going down will probably be asked to shore up the defence ... not his natural role.

Is he a confidence player though? Maybe within games, but unfortunately he's never been able to string that confidence from one game to another with any consistency. For instance, he was very good in the 2009 Preliminary Final. Then followed it up with an ordinary Grand Final. Started 2011 well against Geelong on the back of a strong pre-season, then fell away to be dropped within weeks.

Unless he strings together 6 or so weeks of consistent footy like Gwilt did last year, and then builds it into a season, he will always be ridiculed, and will not have made the most of his potential.

Not to say that fans should do anything else but support him when at the ground.

I thought theothertommo made some very good points about continuity in this thread. It's worth a read if you haven't already.

I did. It was an excellent post. But there are only so many excuses I can cop until you have to ask reasonably, can we persist with such an inconsistent player?

The same question applies for Kosi.

[bigcarl]

You can almost tell with Raph in the first 5-10 minutes of a game how he's going to go. Tonight he was confident, assured, and that goal in the 1st would have done wonders for his confidence. If he turns one over early or is fumbly - it seems to perpetuate throughout the game.

No doubt he's a confidence player. Very underrated offensively when he gets going.

Should be set loose on the wing IMO, but with Gwilt going down will probably be asked to shore up the defence ... not his natural role.

Is he a confidence player though? Maybe within games, but unfortunately he's never been able to string that confidence from one game to another with any consistency. For instance, he was very good in the 2009 Preliminary Final. Then followed it up with an ordinary Grand Final. Started 2011 well against Geelong on the back of a strong pre-season, then fell away to be dropped within weeks.

Unless he strings together 6 or so weeks of consistent footy like Gwilt did last year, and then builds it into a season, he will always be ridiculed, and will not have made the most of his potential.

Not to say that fans should do anything else but support him when at the ground.

I thought theothertommo made some very good points about continuity in this thread. It's worth a read if you haven't already.

I did. It was an excellent post. But there are only so many excuses I can cop until you have to ask reasonably, can we persist with such an inconsistent player?

The same question applies for Kosi.

Well neither can be dropped on form so it falls on them to keep it up.

I do think Kosi looks much more at home in the ruck and similarly Raph looks better when on the offensive.

We've asked them to play roles that don't come naturally to them ... Kosi as a key forward and Raph a close-checking defender. To their detriment IMO

[dcstkfc]

Both will and should continue to play, just hope that it doesn't hurt the long-term development of Walsh, Simpkin etc.

[bigcarl]

Both will and should continue to play, just hope that it doesn't hurt the long-term development of Walsh, Simpkin etc.

Yeah, I'm pretty keen to see Walsh out there. We could do with a strong bodied key, agressive forward to give Rooey a chop-out. Don't know if Walsh is that man, but he has some of the attributes.

[To the top]

"unless he strings together 6 or so weeks".

The facts are that in the 4 games leading up to his severe and season ending injury last year, he was in our best on 3 occasions including match winning performances.

He was BOG up until being injured against Fremantle.

Read the match reports.

In his next game, and under done after an abbreviated pre-season off surgery, my memory is that he played very well v. Geelong and was in our best.

So there are your 6 games - unless you look thru a different prism.

His last 2 games, at West Lakes where he played very well including by taking Ebert totally out of the game and v. West Coast he has played very well.

In between there were a few injury niggles and an underlying fitness issue off the interrupted pre-season.

I repeat, he is easily in our best 22.

Including because of his presence in defence, confirmed by his structure and option instruction which is frequently evident on the field.

[joffaboy]

Both will and should continue to play, just hope that it doesn't hurt the long-term development of Walsh, Simpkin etc.

Huh - Clarke is what? 25? If he played like he did on the weekend he could play for another 6 years. Kosi another 4.

You want to drop them so some youngsters "might" develop?

Strange, very strange.

If Simpkin and Walsh are good enough, they will force their way into the 22.

[gringo]

His 09 GF will be remembered for one run down early on, that incident has never been lived down as it was the first obvious mistake of the day by either team. My take is that Sam Fisher running with him didn't protect the ball carrier or tell him he was about to be tackled. I would never say Fisher was anything but a superstar but on that occasion he let down a team mate, Raph has worn it ever since.

Riewoldt was smothered by Shaw and it was a game defining memory that is hard to erase, Rooey is fortunate enough to have got the most out of his body and game over a continued period so is still held in high regard. 2009 saw Raph break into the team for the first time on a consistent basis, he was still a newbie as far as games played, he has been branded ever since.

The best example for me of the anti Raph hysteria was during a match earlier this year- possibly Richmond, Raph was out and these dicks next to me were bagging Raph every time he touched the ball, shame it was Gwilt with his hair cut, they saw every thing Gwilt did as a clanger when they thought it was Raph.

[To the top]

Funny how one event defines.

Yes Fisher should have given Clarke protection, either by voice or by action.

With the knowledge Fisher was in close proximity Clarke had every right to think he was not "hot" and that he should not "hold" because they are the calls you give to your team mates.

In regards Koschitzke being hit as he was, what about Gwilt?

Gwilt was hit in very similar circumstances, in a token chase metres off the ball.

As was Xavier Clarke v. Geelong and standing in the forward line no where near the ball.

So do these players also lack "awareness"?

Or is it just Koschitzke?

[gringo]

I believe that these little notions that creep into football folk law just show how much faith we place on the words of broadcasters paid to incessantly talk. I know someone who works in radio and they say it is really tiring talking s*** for a couple of hours while sounding like you have credibility.

Some dick like Walls while excusing Giansiracusa, used the idea that it was somehow Kosi's own fault to get him off a charge. The idea sticks and become so often repeated that it becomes true in the minds of footy fans.

There are thousands of these memes that have defined players careers, like Bakes being a thug, Jones' poor kicking etc.

most players lack awareness when they can't see a guy line them up -I remember Harves when I was at Cardinia one day, Hocking ran about 50 meters and took him out side on, no one ever questioned Harvey's awareness.

[The OtherThommo]

I believe that these little notions that creep into football folk law just show how much faith we place on the words of broadcasters paid to incessantly talk. I know someone who works in radio and they say it is really tiring talking s*** for a couple of hours while sounding like you have credibility.

Some dick like Walls while excusing Giansiracusa, used the idea that it was somehow Kosi's own fault to get him off a charge. The idea sticks and become so often repeated that it becomes true in the minds of footy fans.

There are thousands of these memes that have defined players careers, like Bakes being a thug, Jones' poor kicking etc.

most players lack awareness when they can't see a guy line them up -I remember Harves when I was at Cardinia one day, Hocking ran about 50 meters and took him out side on, no one ever questioned Harvey's awareness.

Extremely well put. You can add Wall's questioning of Goose's courage when Hall decked him 70 odd metres off the ball in the '05 prelim. And, Hall was a professionally trained boxer who would never have been allowed to get away with that in a boxing ring, let alone in ordinary society.

Walls is a prime dick who never recovered after after finding a certain female enjoying Ted Hopkins' assignations up against his own locker in the celebrations back at PP after the '70 comeback win aginst the Pies.

[LondonSaint]

I admit he played well on the weekend.. so, credit to Raph..

But after his 10th good game in 7 years, (and that's being generous) all of a sudden he's a gun? please... let's call a spade spade fellas..

For someone once touted the best player out of Northern Territory, he has massively under achieved.

http://www.hawkheadquarters.com/article ... icleid=970

Yes, he's had injuries, and suffered illness.. but after 7 frustrating years in the system... he has been afforded more time and patience than most...
A Geelong or Collingwood would have cut him long time ago.

Raph is an awkward player for AFL... Given time and space.. he can be effective, however.. AFL is now quicker, and more physical than ever.. unfortunately decision making under pressure has always being a problem for him.. i'm not sure he's a backman to be honest.. He's only ever played half forward and some midfield in the juniors.. not his fault Ross is trying to turn every utility player into a rebounding back..

Having said that.. i hope Raph build on his game on the weekend.. A little bit of consistency is all we supporters ask for.. Dal Santo, Riewoldt (even with his kicking yelps), Hays, Montagna, Fisher, Goddard are guns... Raph unfortunately does not measure up against them..

[bigcarl]

i'm not sure he's a backman to be honest.. He's only ever played half forward and some midfield in the juniors.. not his fault Ross is trying to turn every utility player into a rebounding back.

agree.

But after his 10th good game in 7 years, (and that's being generous) all of a sudden he's a gun? please... let's call a spade a spade fellas .. .

Unfortunate choice of words there.

[PJ]

For mine the drops in form coincide directly with the injuries. Like his brother it's a case of can his body hold up to it. If it does you will see the potential realised.