Best Forward Duo?

[makemytime]

The better sides in the competition possess tall forward duos that act together giving options in the air as well as bringing the ball down for the smalls, I was just wondering about how Roo and Kosi rate against the other teams.

Collingwood: Dawes and Cloke. I don't know why, but I have never and probably never will rate these two. Dawes is only useful because of his size and Cloke shanks more than Cam Mooney.

Hawthorn: Buddy and Roughy. I rate these two, but they haven't been able to recreate their dominance in their 08 win. However, with Roughy injured, there is a worry Hawthorn may fall off their pace.

West Coast: Lynch and Kennedy. Both having stellar seasons and their contested marking is key to the Eagles' season so far.

These three teams are all the top 5 teams on the ladder currently and the other two teams (Carlton and Geelong) are both hoping for Waite and Mooney to return respectively.



Based on their 09 form, I would have put Roo and Kosi at the top of the table this pre-season. However, seeing the forward press and the worrying signs (lack of confidence, form, etc), I'm not so sure if I can still believe Roo and Kosi form the best duo any more.
After all, Hawkins and Mooney produced more to clinch the 09 premiership despite the dominance of our star forwards.

[SunburySaint]

The better sides in the competition possess tall forward duos that act together giving options in the air as well as bringing the ball down for the smalls, I was just wondering about how Roo and Kosi rate against the other teams.

Collingwood: Dawes and Cloke. I don't know why, but I have never and probably never will rate these two. Dawes is only useful because of his size and Cloke shanks more than Cam Mooney.

Hawthorn: Buddy and Roughy. I rate these two, but they haven't been able to recreate their dominance in their 08 win. However, with Roughy injured, there is a worry Hawthorn may fall off their pace.

West Coast: Lynch and Kennedy. Both having stellar seasons and their contested marking is key to the Eagles' season so far.

These three teams are all the top 5 teams on the ladder currently and the other two teams (Carlton and Geelong) are both hoping for Waite and Mooney to return respectively.



Based on their 09 form, I would have put Roo and Kosi at the top of the table this pre-season. However, seeing the forward press and the worrying signs (lack of confidence, form, etc), I'm not so sure if I can still believe Roo and Kosi form the best duo any more.
After all, Hawkins and Mooney produced more to clinch the 09 premiership despite the dominance of our star forwards.

Unless the second tall forward can pinch hit in the ruck or can be used elsewhere on the ground effectively, these guys days are over.

Buddy and roughead work well because they can move around the ground and be effective.

Can't imagine Kosi doing a run and goal from midfield ala buddy against essendon

[#1GILL]

Collingwood: Dawes and Cloke. I don't know why, but I have never and probably never will rate these two. Dawes is only useful because of his size and Cloke shanks more than Cam Mooney.

If you don't rate either of these two then your knowledge is really lacking.

Cloke is probably the best forward in the game at the moment, definitely one of the best contested marks, if not the best. His kicking for goal is suspect, but that never stopped us from rating Riewoldt as the best player in the game at times.

Dawes is an absolute beast, and he runs ridiculously well for a bloke of his size. He has taken his game to new levels this year, and is a lovely set shot for goal. He's only 21 years old, and it is commonly accepted that big blokes take a lot longer than mids to develop, in another 2-3 years he could be the best forward in the league.

[PaytonPlace]

The only thing with Cloke and Dawes is the toothless ones are committed to forcing turnovers close to goal and then getting it inside 50 quickly which means they are taking marks in a more open space than our forwards do.

The structure allows Cloke and Dawes 1 on 1 opportunities from turnovers and the resulting quick ball movement inside forward 50 gives them a chance to take a mark in an old fashioned contested 1 on 1 style.

Our slower movement means poor old Nick is facing 3 defenders.

I'm a believer now that tactics and structure are making people look better than they are. The way we move the ball slowly, do you think Dawes would look good in our side? I rate Cloke a lot more than Dawes, I think he's a beneficiary of style over substance - just my opinion.

The Eagles have my pure envy at the moment. That forward line is deadly.

Becca

[bigcarl]

The only thing with Cloke and Dawes is the toothless ones are committed to forcing turnovers close to goal and then getting it inside 50 quickly which means they are taking marks in a more open space than our forwards do.

The structure allows Cloke and Dawes 1 on 1 opportunities from turnovers and the resulting quick ball movement inside forward 50 gives them a chance to take a mark in an old fashioned contested 1 on 1 style.

Our slower movement means poor old Nick is facing 3 defenders.

Correct. Their ability to bang it in there quickly and score quickly was evident in both grand finals.

If you've got good forwards they are wasted without quick ball movement.

Roo isn't really the traditional bash and crash power forward type, more comfortable with running his opponent into the ground than taking contested marks.

We need someone in there who can do that type of role, even if it's Walsh or Archer or Kosi. Don't know enough about Johnson to make a comment on him, but he seems to know where the goals are.

[gringo]

The funny thing is that against geelong particularly, and all season in patches, we are trying fast ball movement. We are playing on from marks and handballing off to the open players to move the ball quickly in. The problem is when we bring it up too quickly we don't play to Riewoldt's current strengths as he doesn't have time to run several searching leads and burn off his man. It may take some readjusting to the new game style, but the forwards need to practice standing still until the ball is just outside 50 and then sprinting off the defender. The new game plan probably suits guys like Kosi more as he is intuitive and can time a run well.

[bigcarl]

The funny thing is that against geelong particularly, and all season in patches, we are trying fast ball movement. We are playing on from marks and handballing off to the open players to move the ball quickly in.

Yes, the intent was there but we were handball happy, I thought. What's wrong with kicking it in there?

There's no quicker or more direct way of moving the ball than with a searching kick and it really puts opposition defenders under pressure.

I don't buy the "we can't kick" argument. We kicked well enough to almost win the last two premierships.

[makemytime]

The funny thing is that against geelong particularly, and all season in patches, we are trying fast ball movement. We are playing on from marks and handballing off to the open players to move the ball quickly in. The problem is when we bring it up too quickly we don't play to Riewoldt's current strengths as he doesn't have time to run several searching leads and burn off his man. It may take some readjusting to the new game style, but the forwards need to practice standing still until the ball is just outside 50 and then sprinting off the defender. The new game plan probably suits guys like Kosi more as he is intuitive and can time a run well.

Some of the ball movement was just foolish, often resulting in turnovers and putting their teammates into more pressure. I think it will take time for us to adjust to this new game plan.

And as sad as I am to say this but, Kosi looked far more dangerous than Roo and for once, he was actually moving well. Shame for him to cop another suspensio and probably lose the form he built up.

[Dr Spaceman]

The funny thing is that against geelong particularly, and all season in patches, we are trying fast ball movement. We are playing on from marks and handballing off to the open players to move the ball quickly in. The problem is when we bring it up too quickly we don't play to Riewoldt's current strengths as he doesn't have time to run several searching leads and burn off his man. It may take some readjusting to the new game style, but the forwards need to practice standing still until the ball is just outside 50 and then sprinting off the defender. The new game plan probably suits guys like Kosi more as he is intuitive and can time a run well.

Some of the ball movement was just foolish, often resulting in turnovers and putting their teammates into more pressure. I think it will take time for us to adjust to this new game plan. 

And as sad as I am to say this but, Kosi looked far more dangerous than Roo and for once, he was actually moving well. Shame for him to cop another suspensio and probably lose the form he built up.

Kosi had actually missed a bit of footy in recent times.

Had he actually built up form or just got over injuries? 

Unfortunate as the suspension is, if indeed it was the latter the additional time off may actually help.

[Saintersss]

Midfields win premierships.

Top midfields make forward lines look much stronger. Just have a look at 2009 when our midfield was dominant. Kosi was a star and kick 48 goals and picked up 11 brownlow votes.

Collingwood last year won because of their midfield, Dawes and Cloke were hardly that good last year and made to look much better because of players like Pendlebury, Swan, Thomas etc. (However, this year both are much better players)

Geelong have been dominant due to their incredible midfield, Mooney is a okay player, however is made to look a lot better due to Geelong's midfield. Don't get me started on Lonergan or Hawkins.

West Coast had one of the great midfields, and even made Lynch and Hansen look like good forwards. You only have to look at 2010, to see how bad those two forwards really were with a terrible midfield.

Building the midfield should be the number 1 priority, sure superstar forward's help, but if you can't win the ball they aren't much use. (See Riewoldt this year)

[bigcarl]

Midfields win premierships.

Top midfields make forward lines look much stronger. Just have a look at 2009 when our midfield was dominant.

Remember GF day that year. We won the midfield, but couldn't put it on the scoreboard. Our forwards couldn't convert. Similar thing happened to Geelong the previous year against Hawthorn.

That's why I don't go in for blanket statements like "midfields win premierships". Fact is it takes all types.

Rebuilding the midfield and fixing our non existent forward line should get equal urgent priority.

[Johnny Member]

Midfields win premierships.

Top midfields make forward lines look much stronger. Just have a look at 2009 when our midfield was dominant.

Remember GF day that year. We won the midfield, but couldn't put it on the scoreboard. Our forwards couldn't convert. Similar thing happened to Geelong the previous year against Hawthorn.

That's why I don't go in for blanket statements like "midfields win premierships".

Rebuilding the midfield and fixing our non existent forward line should get equal urgent priority.

The forwards not converting is very different to the forward line not working.


The 'two tall' thing is a myth I reckon.


It's not being tall that is the key. It's being mobile, and it's working hard that's the key.
All the size does, is give you the ability to force a contest.

Hawthorn kicked about 900 goals on the weekend without Franklin or Roughead.
Carlton have played small all year, with a ruckman resting in the there.

Chris Dawes averages 1.8 goals per week! Hardly game breaking!


The key to a forward line, is to be unpredictable. That's where the good sides have the edge. And that's where we struggle.

Your structure can be predictable, but the scoring methods need to be unpredictable.


For example, everyone knows Dawes and Cloke start forward.

But these guys don't kick Collingwood's score every week. Cloke having a great year, but he's not the reason they're winning games.

They still kick big scores when he and Dawes don't kick a bag (which is actually very rare that they do kick bags).

Their mids kick goals - and not from bombs outside 50 either. They rotate through there, the big guys create space for them, and they start different smalls in their each week.

With Collingwood, no one knows exactly where the goals are going to come from, which makes it very hard to stop.


With us, our structure has been very predictable. That's no big deal - the issue is that we are so predictable in how we move the ball forward.
Everyone knows exactly where the ball is going, and who we a trying to get to kick our score for us.

It makes it very easy to stop.



So, no. I disagree on the two talls thing. You need forwards who can create a contest, who can mark, who can kick straight, who work hard and who work well as a unit to generate goals.
But you also need forwards who are quick, who can rove, who can kick straight, who can tackle, who can create space - and again who work well as a unit to generate goals.


West Coast kicked over 100 points against a top 4 side yesterday. Kennedy kicked 2 and Lynch kicked 2, and they won the game comfortably.


Can you imagine us kicking 100 points against a top 4 side and winning with Roo and Kosi only kicking 4 between them?
Very, very rare.

That's the issue I reckon.

[bigcarl]

Midfields win premierships.

Top midfields make forward lines look much stronger. Just have a look at 2009 when our midfield was dominant.

Remember GF day that year. We won the midfield, but couldn't put it on the scoreboard. Our forwards couldn't convert. Similar thing happened to Geelong the previous year against Hawthorn.

That's why I don't go in for blanket statements like "midfields win premierships".

Rebuilding the midfield and fixing our non existent forward line should get equal urgent priority.

The forwards not converting is very different to the forward line not working.

Surely one of a forward's primary roles is to convert. If they aren't converting it isn't working.

[Johnny Member]

Midfields win premierships.

Top midfields make forward lines look much stronger. Just have a look at 2009 when our midfield was dominant.

Remember GF day that year. We won the midfield, but couldn't put it on the scoreboard. Our forwards couldn't convert. Similar thing happened to Geelong the previous year against Hawthorn.

That's why I don't go in for blanket statements like "midfields win premierships".

Rebuilding the midfield and fixing our non existent forward line should get equal urgent priority.

The forwards not converting is very different to the forward line not working.

Surely one of a forward's primary roles is to convert. If they aren't converting it isn't working.

I'd have thought it's the person not performing, not the system and/or structure not working.

[St Nick]

The better sides in the competition possess tall forward duos that act together giving options in the air as well as bringing the ball down for the smalls, I was just wondering about how Roo and Kosi rate against the other teams.

Collingwood: Dawes and Cloke. I don't know why, but I have never and probably never will rate these two. Dawes is only useful because of his size and Cloke shanks more than Cam Mooney.

Hawthorn: Buddy and Roughy. I rate these two, but they haven't been able to recreate their dominance in their 08 win. However, with Roughy injured, there is a worry Hawthorn may fall off their pace.

West Coast: Lynch and Kennedy. Both having stellar seasons and their contested marking is key to the Eagles' season so far.

These three teams are all the top 5 teams on the ladder currently and the other two teams (Carlton and Geelong) are both hoping for Waite and Mooney to return respectively.



Based on their 09 form, I would have put Roo and Kosi at the top of the table this pre-season. However, seeing the forward press and the worrying signs (lack of confidence, form, etc), I'm not so sure if I can still believe Roo and Kosi form the best duo any more.
After all, Hawkins and Mooney produced more to clinch the 09 premiership despite the dominance of our star forwards.

I thought I was one eyed. Kosi is s*** and always has been s***.

[Dr Spaceman]

The better sides in the competition possess tall forward duos that act together giving options in the air as well as bringing the ball down for the smalls, I was just wondering about how Roo and Kosi rate against the other teams.

Collingwood: Dawes and Cloke. I don't know why, but I have never and probably never will rate these two. Dawes is only useful because of his size and Cloke shanks more than Cam Mooney.

Hawthorn: Buddy and Roughy. I rate these two, but they haven't been able to recreate their dominance in their 08 win. However, with Roughy injured, there is a worry Hawthorn may fall off their pace.

West Coast: Lynch and Kennedy. Both having stellar seasons and their contested marking is key to the Eagles' season so far.

These three teams are all the top 5 teams on the ladder currently and the other two teams (Carlton and Geelong) are both hoping for Waite and Mooney to return respectively.



Based on their 09 form, I would have put Roo and Kosi at the top of the table this pre-season. However, seeing the forward press and the worrying signs (lack of confidence, form, etc), I'm not so sure if I can still believe Roo and Kosi form the best duo any more.
After all, Hawkins and Mooney produced more to clinch the 09 premiership despite the dominance of our star forwards.

I thought I was one eyed. Kosi is s*** and always has been s***.

That's the spirit! Go Saints!!!!

[St Nick]

The better sides in the competition possess tall forward duos that act together giving options in the air as well as bringing the ball down for the smalls, I was just wondering about how Roo and Kosi rate against the other teams.

Collingwood: Dawes and Cloke. I don't know why, but I have never and probably never will rate these two. Dawes is only useful because of his size and Cloke shanks more than Cam Mooney.

Hawthorn: Buddy and Roughy. I rate these two, but they haven't been able to recreate their dominance in their 08 win. However, with Roughy injured, there is a worry Hawthorn may fall off their pace.

West Coast: Lynch and Kennedy. Both having stellar seasons and their contested marking is key to the Eagles' season so far.

These three teams are all the top 5 teams on the ladder currently and the other two teams (Carlton and Geelong) are both hoping for Waite and Mooney to return respectively.



Based on their 09 form, I would have put Roo and Kosi at the top of the table this pre-season. However, seeing the forward press and the worrying signs (lack of confidence, form, etc), I'm not so sure if I can still believe Roo and Kosi form the best duo any more.
After all, Hawkins and Mooney produced more to clinch the 09 premiership despite the dominance of our star forwards.

I thought I was one eyed. Kosi is s*** and always has been s***.

That's the spirit! Go Saints!!!!

Mate, I love the Saints but to be so deluded to think that Kosi could form part of the best forward duo is mind boggling and bordering on insanity.

[Dr Spaceman]

The better sides in the competition possess tall forward duos that act together giving options in the air as well as bringing the ball down for the smalls, I was just wondering about how Roo and Kosi rate against the other teams.

Collingwood: Dawes and Cloke. I don't know why, but I have never and probably never will rate these two. Dawes is only useful because of his size and Cloke shanks more than Cam Mooney.

Hawthorn: Buddy and Roughy. I rate these two, but they haven't been able to recreate their dominance in their 08 win. However, with Roughy injured, there is a worry Hawthorn may fall off their pace.

West Coast: Lynch and Kennedy. Both having stellar seasons and their contested marking is key to the Eagles' season so far.

These three teams are all the top 5 teams on the ladder currently and the other two teams (Carlton and Geelong) are both hoping for Waite and Mooney to return respectively.



Based on their 09 form, I would have put Roo and Kosi at the top of the table this pre-season. However, seeing the forward press and the worrying signs (lack of confidence, form, etc), I'm not so sure if I can still believe Roo and Kosi form the best duo any more.
After all, Hawkins and Mooney produced more to clinch the 09 premiership despite the dominance of our star forwards.

I thought I was one eyed. Kosi is s*** and always has been s***.

That's the spirit! Go Saints!!!!

Mate, I love the Saints but to be so deluded to think that Kosi could form part of the best forward duo is mind boggling and bordering on insanity.

So why not just say that rather than call one of our players s***?

[Johnny Member]

I agree that Kosi has no value as a forward. None at all.

Never really has.



However I do believe he adds plenty of value in the middle.

[plugger66]

I agree that Kosi has no value as a forward. None at all.

Never really has.



However I do believe he adds plenty of value in the middle.

I have never seen him play as a centreman or RR but he may be good. He certainly cant ruck though and that has been well proven this year.

[Johnny Member]

I agree that Kosi has no value as a forward. None at all.

Never really has.



However I do believe he adds plenty of value in the middle.

I have never seen him play as a centreman or RR but he may be good. He certainly cant ruck though and that has been well proven this year.

I'm not sure I agree.

He isn't a wonderful tap ruckman, but his presence in there is fantastic.

He hasn't been fit this year, so it's tough to guage his performance. But I still reckon easily, his best footy and where he's had his biggest influence and impact on matches has been in the ruck.

[spert]

You need effective key forwards, not just rely on flankers and smalls to kick goals. We have had no effective key forwards all year that could consistantly win a one-on-one contest, and had none in the 09 and 10 GFs- easily beaten in each case, and that's what killed us especially in the 09 GF, but '10 GF replay was more of a poor overall team effort. For 2011, RL needs to have a good think about the forward structure, and really put a bit of time into solving the FF position.

[Johnny Member]

You need effective key forwards, not just rely on flankers and smalls to kick goals. We have had no effective key forwards all year that could consistantly win a one-on-one contest, and had none in the 09 and 10 GFs- easily beaten in each case, and that's what killed us especially in the 09 GF, but '10 GF replay was more of a poor overall team effort. For 2011, RL needs to have a good think about the forward structure, and really put a bit of time into solving the FF position.

I'll probably have to agree to disgree with most in regards to this.

But I just don't reckon the answer is big forwards who can mark.


I'd argue that in 09 and 10, the issue was definitely that we couldn't kick enough goals - but I think that was because we relied too much on the 'kick it to the big guys who will take a contested mark' strategy.

Kosi was taking contested marks, and so was Roo - but that wasn't enough. That system doesn't work.
What works is having many options and many ways to generate scores.


I mean even in the 08 GF, Hawthorn had used Roughead and Franklin all year to win games.
But in the GF those two didn't play huge roles. Geelong expected them to, and prepared accordingly.
Whgat won Hawthorn the flag (in addition to Geelong's poor kicking) was their ability to kick a winning score without relying on 'two talls' and being able to use various systems and players to kick goals.

[Junction Oval]

I think that a lot has to do with three things :

a) poor delivery into the forward line.
b) beiing totally focused/reliant on Riewoldt.
c) no back-up bigman key option (as Kosi was a few years ago).

[Con Gorozidis]

we just need 6 good players in there.
carlton doing well with their littluns fwd.
trouble is over the past few years we have had 3 good players in our fwd line at any one time. which means they get double teams .
have u have 5 good players in there (regardless of size) you will do well.