Watershed Moment?

[hungry for a premiership]

I'm fascinated by what took place behind those closed doors, with Ross leaving first then the players having their own meeting. What was said?

I'm sure that whatever took place, it will serve to make us stronger and more resilient. We've crashed, and these are the types of things that pick up the pieces and move the whole group - players and coach, together - forward, to get back into premiership contention.

Ross Lyon gets his chance to rebuild this team. I think he's doing the job quite well, actually. We have been building and improving since about round 4 or 5, when it became totally apparent where we were at, and have gotten past the worst of it. We won in many key indicators last night - we're playing better.

Now it appears Ross has drawn a line-in-the-sand of sorts.

If this turns into one of those watershed-type moments we could well come out after the bye and win our next 9, no, make that 13, straight.

[Thinline]

I suspect Ross said something along the lines of 'you either earn your money here or you find another job'.

He had every right to be cranky with em.

One of those kind of nights. Effort unrewarded because of ineptitude.

More than annoying seeing your strategy and planning shat on from a height.

IMO.

[ralphsmith]

I dont think there is anything severely wrong with the lists resilience or will to win.

They just cannot execute kicks to team mates properly.

I dont know if these skills can be improved. You either have the skill to kick to a team mate leading, running, or standing still properly or you dont have that skill.

These players dont have that skill, and we will not progress as a team if something is not done.

Ray
Gram
Gilbert
Armitage
Steven
Baker
Clarke
Jones
Blake

That list is far too long. Our effort and intensity can help us to beat some teams but against the teams with real 'footballers' like geelong or collingwood well...we know what happens.

Our turnovers from incorrectly executed kicks or handballs result in instant goals to opposition players.

Turnovers from kicks that involved no foresight ( oh i will kick it to riewoldt with 3 players on him and hope for the best!) costs us goals and games.

A cleanout is looking more and more necessary at years end. Battly scrubbers will only ever win a premiership against another team of battly scrubbers. Hawthorn, collingwood and the blues have skillful players who csn and will take the game on with punishing accurate kicks imbued with foresight!

[clarky449]

The era is finished. Need to move on and accept it.

[defacto]

i reckon he got the players to rate each others performance, go over what they did wrong and right. what they are expected to do and selected those who will play for sandy and wont be playing round 15.

[gringo]

I think our new game plan is making us more prone to skill errors, quick movement doesn't give you time to balance and often involves kicking to fast moving targets. It will get better the more it is practiced. They fell away as they learnt Saintsfooty and will fall away while relearning this style.

I think he probably told them he was pissed that they don't follow instruction when the chips are down.

[bigcarl]

I dont think there is anything severely wrong with the lists resilience or will to win.

They just cannot execute kicks to team mates properly.

Obviously a fair bit of it is between the ears, since essentially the same team ... now minus Lenny of course ... has been very, very good the past few seasons.

They could execute kicks to teammates properly (or at least better) in previous seasons. So what gives?

We have a confidence problem more than anything (IMO).

I'd be telling them to move it quicker and more direct and back your teammate to win the contest.

Confidence is infectious (as Geelong and Collingwood and now Carlton) are showing. So is lack of confidence.

[lennyeverywhere]

I dont think there is anything severely wrong with the lists resilience or will to win.

They just cannot execute kicks to team mates properly.

Obviously a fair bit of it is between the ears, since essentially the same team ... bar Lenny of course ... has been very, very good the past few seasons.

They could execute kicks to teammates properly (or at least better) in previous seasons. So what gives?

We have a confidence problem more than anything (IMO).

I'd be telling them to move it quicker and more direct and back your teammate to win the contest.

Confidence is infectious (as Geelong and Collingwood and now Carlton) are showing. So is lack of confidence.

I'd be telling them to move it quicker and more direct and back your teammate to win the contest.

This is the best thing i have ever seen on this forum and totally agree.

[bigcarl]

I dont think there is anything severely wrong with the lists resilience or will to win.

They just cannot execute kicks to team mates properly.

Obviously a fair bit of it is between the ears, since essentially the same team ... now minus Lenny of course ... has been very, very good the past few seasons.

They could execute kicks to teammates properly (or at least better) in previous seasons. So what gives?

We have a confidence problem more than anything (IMO).

I'd be telling them to move it quicker and more direct and back your teammate to win the contest.

Confidence is infectious (as Geelong and Collingwood and now Carlton) are showing. So is lack of confidence.

I'd be telling them to move it quicker and more direct and back your teammate to win the contest.

This is the best thing i have ever seen on this forum and totally agree.

Why thank you

[Thinline]

The speed of movement thing is critical. In 09 and 10 they had half a second to spot a target. Now they have a quarter. The difference, it seems, is a yard too high or two metres two short.

[Johnny Member]

Man, I'm a Ross Lyon fan, but....

....I'm not sure our current predicament lies solely at the feet of the players.


As a supporter, I'm a bit confused as to what it is we're actually trying to do.

We've recruited unskilled players - but seem to be attempting to play a game that requires a very high skill level.

I'm also a bit confused as to what the future holds. Do we think we're still a chance to contest the big one this year or next? If so, I think our coaches are kidding themselves (hopefully I'm wrong).

If we're not, then what was with the team selected on Saturday night?

We finally turned our back on the 'two talls' forward line thing after 3 years of it not working (unless Roo dominated) - and we found ourselves being able to kick scores over the past month. Suddenly on Saturday night, we reverted back to that?

We've sort of been told that things are Ok, we just need to win contested ball and tackles and we'll be right. We won those areas and tried really hard, and were beaten comfortably by a depleted team.


So I don't know. I'm finding it hard to keep the faith with us at the moment (meaning it's hard to remain positive), and I'm afraid I reckon the coach should be asking himself as many questions as he's asking the players.


I hope I'm wrong, but from an outsiders perspective it seems to have a sense of 'a coach not wanting to concede his plan is outdated and isn't working anymore' about it.
A month or so ago, it looked as though there was an acknowledgement that we needed to change. But then Saturday night happened and I'm not sure anymore.

[markp]

i reckon he got the players to rate each others performance

Pretty much this.

I reckon he said rate yourselves from 1 to 22, and tell me who deserves to be dropped and who deserves to play, then he left them to it.

[Johnny Member]

I'd be telling them to move it quicker and more direct and back your teammate to win the contest.

Confidence is infectious (as Geelong and Collingwood and now Carlton) are showing. So is lack of confidence.

I'd be telling them to move it quicker and more direct and back your teammate to win the contest.

This is the best thing i have ever seen on this forum and totally agree.

Why thank you

But I don't think with our current structure, that it's really fair.


We're clearly trying to play-on at all costs, but the forward structure isn't condusive to fast entry (as silly as that sounds).
Roo gets tripled teamed, so getting it in quickly to him doesn't help. It's almost what the opposition want.
And Kosi hasn't been able to get out of his own daylight as a forward...well, pretty much ever.
As much as people cling to his 09 season, he still only kicked 2 a game which is Ok, but not anything to get overly excited about as a key forward.

So I don't think plonking two talls in the F50 with Milne at their feet is the answer - regardless of how quickly it gets in there.

If it goes to Kosi, he struggles. If it hits the ground near Kosi, he's completely stuffed.
If it goes to Roo, he's at best doubled teamed. If it goes to ground near Roo, it's basically Roo versus his two opponents and Milne versus his. So we're once again outnumbered.


We clearly need to move the ball quicker and more effectively. But until we finally scrap the 'two talls' forward setup it's just not going to matter. The only rime that's ever worked, was when Roo was the best player in the comp and winning games off his own boot.
I think that fact maybe sucked us in to thinking we had the structure right.

The forward line needs to be Milne, Schneider, Armitage and midfielders rotating through.
With Roo higher up the ground and drifting into the F50 when the timing is right.

Kosi needs to ruck. He may not get much of the ball as a ruckman, but his presence is fantastic.

[Con Gorozidis]

I'm fascinated by what took place behind those closed doors, with Ross leaving first then the players having their own meeting. What was said?

I'm sure that whatever took place, it will serve to make us stronger and more resilient. We've crashed, and these are the types of things that pick up the pieces and move the whole group - players and coach, together - forward, to get back into premiership contention.

Ross Lyon gets his chance to rebuild this team. I think he's doing the job quite well, actually. We have been building and improving since about round 4 or 5, when it became totally apparent where we were at, and have gotten past the worst of it. We won in many key indicators last night - we're playing better.

Now it appears Ross has drawn a line-in-the-sand of sorts.

If this turns into one of those watershed-type moments we could well come out after the bye and win our next 9, no, make that 13, straight.

Dont think so. Saints problem is not lack of effort. It is pure and simple a class gap. So "drawing a line" in the sand wont help our cause.

As someone on here said - thats why they call it football and not effortball. We cant doubt the Saints effort. But class and kicking skills. Not sure RL can improbe that with a "stern talking to".

[SainterSoul]

The speed of movement thing is critical. In 09 and 10 they had half a second to spot a target. Now they have a quarter. The difference, it seems, is a yard too high or two metres two short.

The difference is the intensity the top teams are playing at. Collingwood don't just shut down teams, they have the skills, and offensive side of the game to blow teams away. Geelong do have a similar skill set, but they don't have the scoring power they used to have.

As a result, decision making is one of the most important factors, and unfortunately, I think far too many of our players are lacking in that area.

This is probably a combination of a coaching issue, fitness, confidence and/or a talent issue. And until we fix those areas up, we are unlikely to be back at the top any time soon.

[Johnny Member]

As someone on here said - thats why they call it football and not effortball. We cant doubt the Saints effort. But class and kicking skills. Not sure RL can improbe that with a "stern talking to".

The question then has to be, how has that class gap opened up so dramatically from last year?

What did we miss, that everyone else improved on over the pre-season to open up such a gap?

[Con Gorozidis]

i reckon he got the players to rate each others performance

Pretty much this.

I reckon he said rate yourselves from 1 to 22, and tell me who deserves to be dropped and who deserves to play, then he left them to it.

Hope not. Sure way to get the playing group hating each others guts.

[Con Gorozidis]

As someone on here said - thats why they call it football and not effortball. We cant doubt the Saints effort. But class and kicking skills. Not sure RL can improbe that with a "stern talking to".

The question then has to be, how has that class gap opened up so dramatically from last year?

What did we miss, that everyone else improved on over the pre-season to open up such a gap?

I think it was there last year. But we were so good at the defensive side that we managed to just hold on in a lot of games. If you remember last year - we never played that well and we won a lot tight games where we were in an arm wrestle for 3 quarters and we had a surge in the 3rd quarter. Its not like we were winning lots of quarters. We probably only won 60% of quarters last year.

But I think the key thing is you have to practice/train for for when they have it (we are very good) and WHEN we have it (we are not so good).. The bit when we have it involves run and spread and kicking skills under pressure. As I recall from the last 2 years we were never that great at those 2 aspects of the game - and we relied on low scoring games to win. i.e our defensive side was so good we still got 4 points despite the wekanesses in offensive play. This "holding up the dam wall" style of play was never sustainable and many many commentators and posters were saying this all throughout last year.

So I dont think its a matter of a huge gap being filled in the off season. We were only winning games by 2% anyway. We just won a lot of games by 2 %. So our defense drops off 2% and our offense stays the same (or gets 2% worse) and we start losing. Thats how tight it is.

How often did the Cats get us on the rebound? We made one silly unforced error moving fwd when we had it. And BANG. they would rebound it and get a goal without making a disposal mistake.

[Moods]

If we're not, then what was with the team selected on Saturday night?

We finally turned our back on the 'two talls' forward line thing after 3 years of it not working (unless Roo dominated) - and we found ourselves being able to kick scores over the past month. Suddenly on Saturday night, we reverted back to that?

Completely disagree with that part of your post. How can we possibly kick a winning score and best utilise our best asset (Roo) w/o playing two power fwds? Kosi was ok Sat night. That effort we put in would have beat 70% of the competition, but against the cats we needed to be far more polished. As far as I'm concerned the structure of the team the past month has been rubbish, and we were beating rubbish teams doing it. Playing kos and Roo with Siposs is the best go imo. How can you say it didn't work the last 3 years? The reason Roo dominated was BECAUSE he had a chop out up fwd. In 2009 when Kos was in form the team looked unbeatable - hardly a structure that doesn't work. Teams all try and get two quality tall fwds. Even the cats tried it with Mooney/n.Ablett and Mooney/Hawkins in their premiership years. Otherwise you manufacture something like the doggies have tried to do for so long (and look how successful they are?)

[perfectionist]

Agree with most of list but Farren Ray can kick fifty metres both feet, mark overhead and run. He is way too selfless for his own (and the team's ) good. He, like Brendon Goddard ,should be a designated kicker not a link player. Leave the handball to blokes who can't kick.

[borderbarry]

Farren Ray may be able to kick 50 metres, but he still has trouble finding teammates. I am not sure if it is lack of care, panic, or what, but his field kicking leaves a lot to be desired.

[bigcarl]

Agree moods about the two tall forwards structure. Not certain that kosi should be the second one, but he was okay on Saturday and won't be dropped on that.

Johnnymember, quick delivery benefits all forwards because it increases the likelyhood of them being one out against their opponent ... Something Geelong managed frequently on Saturday

[Johnny Member]

Agree moods about the two tall forwards structure. Not certain that kosi should be the second one, but he was okay on Saturday and won't be dropped on that.

Johnnymember, quick delivery benefits all forwards, because it increases the likelyhood of them being one out against their opponent ... Something Geelong managed frequently on saturday

Our guys are never one out.

Never.


You've got to remember, even when we were unbeatable, we still weren't wonderful at scoring. We weren't in the top 4 for 'Points For' in 2009, and were barely in the top 8 for 'Points For' last year. And dare I say it, the inability to manufacture goals was what cost us in both GFs.

It was never an issue, until we started to concede goals ourselves. At that point, we started to rely on amazing individual efforts from Roo to kick scores.

Interestingly also, is that the teams who've been above us in 'Points For' over the past couple of years, find themselves in the top 3 on the ladder right now.

So I don't think it was the forward structures that had beating teams. It was the players up there. And that's always a dangerous way to build a team. As we're seeing now, you lose the input of the players, and you're stuffed.


So in summary, at our peak when we nearly went undefeated for an entire season, we still weren't kicking enough scores.
So based on that, I'm far from convinced that the setup we used then was any good. And I'm even less convinced that it works now.

Teams that could kick big scores, borrowed our defence strategy and are now dominant teams.

However we haven't done anything with out ineffective forward setup whilst this has all been happening. We've basically stuck with a model that never really worked that well.

[St Chris]

Playing kos and Roo with Siposs is the best go imo.

Agree. 100%. How can we be crying out for a 3rd forward, when we don't have a 1st and 2nd before them?? Siposs will only ever be a 3rd forward, he doesn't have the size to be the main man. He's a "hit on a lead" player, not a "kick on their head and hope" player like we use Kosi and Roo.

Agree with most of list but Farren Ray can kick fifty metres both feet, mark overhead and run.

I mentioned this last week, but I'd like to see Farren start from the goal square, with Kosi next to him. He's not slow so he can lead, and he's got great hands for his size.

[Sobraz]

I just want to know why Goddard, who is the best kick in the side, and probably comp, has been handballing 70% of the time, and all his kicks are no more than 15-20m dabs...

His major weapon is kicking into space and over lines... He has an astounding amount of ability with his feet, especially over long distance and to position, yet we haven't seen this for most of the year...

Game style?.. Instruction?... Injury (unlikely)?...

It is an indiciation of how the team's going right now that we are not playing with and to our strengths...[/code]