The brutal game style has taken its toll

[White Winmar]

Having watched all but one game this year, I can't help coming to the conclusion that our players look tired and somewhat lethargic. The manic intensity that was the hallmark of our game in 2009-10 has all but disappeared and our "stars" seem to be the worst afflicted. To watch Roo last night was just plain sad. I think it might just have been his worst game ever and it was the culmination of a pretty poor month. He's hardly Robinson Crusoe though. The butchering of the ball and the general lack of run and spread undid all the hard won gains that were made in the contests and around the stoppages.

I know we've racked up three wins in the past 5 games, but apart from passages in the Fremantle game, we've been pretty ordinary. I can't help wondering if we're seeing the consequences of what is a very taxing and physically brutal game-style. Having put absolutely everything into the past two seasons, for no net result, is it any wonder there seems to be a general "flatness" around the team? It is a game style that also requires 100% effort for the entire game, something the team consistently delivered over the past two to three years. Without this total effort and commitment, the plan falls over and our considerable skill gaps, which we've been able to disguise through effort, have been exposed.

With our best players well below their optimum, the flow on effect has been that the middle to lower rungs have been exposed. In these circumstances, every deficiency and mistake is magnified. We seem almost helpless to address it. We seem incapable of exerting real scoreboard pressure and when we fall 3-4 goals behind in a game, we are pretty much shot. One thing is certain, we have dropped way behind the top 4 teams in the competition and, as much as I hate to admit it, I don't think we are capable of closing the gap this year.

Simply playing the kids is not the panacea. To state the bleeding obvious, that tactic will only work if you have good "kids". I think we have a few, but not as many as some might want to believe. Turnover of personnel might help revive the desire and intensity, but while we are struggling so badly in the skills and intensity departments, progress will be slow. So do we change the plan that got us so close, or do we persist with those who got us there? Over to you, fellow forumites.

[plugger66]

Agree but think the disappointment of losing 2 GF's cannot be underestimated. I find it hard to get excited by watching us now so how would the players be actually feeling. I think if your stars are struggling there must be some mental problems as well as physical problems.

[perfectionist]

Agree but think the disappointment of losing 2 GF's cannot be underestimated. I find it hard to get excited by watching us now so how would the players be actually feeling. I think if your stars are struggling there must be some mental problems as well as physical problems.

Yep, agree. It's almost like going through the motions. They continue to give their all, we continue to turn up, but back their in our minds are the misses in 2009 and the bounce in 2010.

[Nicky Winmore]

I think both of you guys are on the money with your thoughts.

What disappoints me time and time again is

1. Players constantly going to ground or the lack of effort to stay on their
feet so they can continue on withg the contest. I think this has become
habitual with some players going to round as an excuse for avoiding a
one on one contest they haven't got the confidence they can win.
2. Punching the ball over the boundary line or through the point post
when they are in a position to take a mark ie more than a 50/50
chance. Punching is the easy option, going for the mark means taking
a risk and backing yourself which is something most of
our playing list are afraid to do. The worst part they often seem proud
of taking the easy option.
3. I believe that the fact Reiwoldt runs under the ball so often in the
forward line shows a lack of confidence in his marking abilty when it
counts. You'll notice he rarely runs under the ball when going for a
mark in the backline or when the team is not in a scoring opportunity.

Its sad really.

[gringo]

I feel that the new game plan doesn't suit Rooey as well. He was able to position himself while it came in slowly to run off his man after a series of little looping runs. He is not a good stand still pack mark, he can jump over a pack when coming at speed but he isn't tall or strong enough to do the role collingwoods forwards play. We need to find a way to get Nick's assets on show. I would look at playing him like Kouta or Pav when they got runs on the ball. Otherwise as some kind of running link from defence. He is probably still suffering from the mentalk scars of ripping the hamstring from the bone.

[White Winmar]

You can't underestimate the damage of those three unsuccessful grand finals and that was part of what I was alluding to in the original post. It's a combination of both factors. Extremely hard work, without the ultimate pay off. It's like you working your guts out in your job for years and constantly being overlooked for promotion and pay rises. At some point, even if it's only sub-conscious, you're going to say, "Stuff this", and your performance will drop off accordingly.

One thing I do hope they do is favour the best kicks in the place, when it comes to selection. Amongst the kids that means Siposs, Ledger and although he mightn't be ready physically, Sam Crocker. Have you seen the little fella kick? Packs a punch like a mule and accurate as a laser. If only we could instantly add 10 kilos of muscle to his frame.

[meher baba]

The whole team looked like they were trying their guts out last night to me

There were some extremely costly skill errors, some poor kicking for goal, some very unhelpful umpiring, and some blokes who badly lost their matchups on key Cats players.

Otherwise, we probably would have won. I can't personally see that last year's GFs had much to do with anything. Didn't seem to affect Dal Santo. Fisher, Baker, Dempster, Gwilt or McEvoy too badly.

[plugger66]

The whole team looked like they were trying their guts out last night to me

There were some extremely costly skill errors, some poor kicking for goal, some very unhelpful umpiring, and some blokes who badly lost their matchups on key Cats players.

Otherwise, we probably would have won. I can't personally see that last year's GFs had much to do with anything. Didn't seem to affect Dal Santo. Fisher, Baker, Dempster, Gwilt or McEvoy too badly.

Could say it has effected BJ, Rooy and Joey. You can actually look like you are trying and think you are trying but in the back of your head you just remember 2 of the closest losses in GF's.

[Johnny Member]

I'm not over 2009.


It burns.

[makemytime]

I'm not over 2009.


It burns.

It burns day and night, I kept a copy of the Herald Sun from the day after and read it every now and then...
I was at the game, and I think we beat Geelong in most departments of the game, contested marks was actually in our favour. But our errors costed us goals while their errors didn't do them as much harm.

Was on the train when these two Geelong supporters came on and called St Kilda 'ugly' football - something I am actually proud of from our boys. But yes, the intensity has certainly fallen with players just not able to push themselves to their previous bests.

[quidnunc]

The 2009 and 2010 game plan failed to win us a premiership. Yes we came damn close and with a bit of luck would have won two with that game plan and our players.

Now however, that game plan is not winning us games let alone likely to win a GF. Footy and coaching has addressed our plan A. Also the same players, playing the same game plan is not working.

We need change - Plan B!

I would like to see Stanley, Archer, Johnson, Lynch, Walsh, Winmar, Sippos et al given much more game time from now to end of season.

If they perform well - we're moving forward. If they don't - we know they're not up to it and recruit new youngsters.

That way we're still moving forward to the holy grai.

It iis no good playing this season out with the very serviceable players who have toiled hard for the Saints over the last few years. Try our kids and persevere now! What happens next year then if we play the kids and they prove not to be the answer/revelation we all wish?

Alas another year without a flag - for the players, the coach, the loyal supporters.

[plugger66]

The 2009 and 2010 game plan failed to win us a premiership. Yes we came damn close and with a bit of luck would have won two with that game plan and our players.

Now however, that game plan is not winning us games let alone likely to win a GF. Footy and coaching has addressed our plan A. Also the same players, playing the same game plan is not working.

We need change - Plan B!

I would like to see Stanley, Archer, Johnson, Lynch, Walsh, Winmar, Sippos et al given much more game time from now to end of season.

If they perform well - we're moving forward. If they don't - we know they're not up to it and recruit new youngsters.

That way we're still moving forward to the holy grai.

It iis no good playing this season out with the very serviceable players who have toiled hard for the Saints over the last few years. Try our kids and persevere now! What happens next year then if we play the kids and they prove not to be the answer/revelation we all wish?

Alas another year without a flag - for the players, the coach, the loyal supporters.

All those guys could play the rest of the year and do no good and the only ones even slightly a chance to be moved on are Johnson and Archer. That is the thing, you dont work out if they are good enough or not for 3 to 4 years.

[quidnunc]

Plugger66, I agree with your comments but unfortunately the other thing is the players who are good enough (i.e. selected in our team) over the years are not good enough now.

Tough times - tough decisions needed.

Geez that makes it hard for all us poor buggers craving the ultimate for all loyal Sainters!

[White Winmar]

Seriously MB, do you think the team is playing anywhere near the levels of 2009-10, even those you name as the exceptions to the rule? The point I was making is that the RL game plan, which is so heavily focused on process and role playing, fails unless you have tremendous effort across the board, not just from a few. Fish and Dal have been good this year, but mainly in comparison to the rest. I challenge you to grab some footage from early 2009 and see the level they were playing at then. The difference between then and now may surprise you.

[Iceman234]

Geez that makes it hard for all us poor buggers craving the ultimate for all loyal Sainters!

I'm hearing you here quidnunc. I was 20 months old when we won our only flag. Over the last twenty years I've thought we were a legitimate list/chance to have won probably four flags.

Alas, none - and at the moment I'm thinking I'll be well into my 50's before we fully reload again.

[Dan Warna]

we aren't in a position to challenge for a flag in 11 as it is, after the excitement and 2 close misses at this stage, I can see where you are coming from

[Teflon]

I cant agree with this thread. It focusses ALL on the game plan...when the reality is its our personnel that have now been found out.

Ofcourse a fullpress game styleis taxing - its also mighty effective and the reason why ALL current AFL sides (with Pies best at it) are now doing it.

Are all these sides suddenly tired? No.

Reality is we are no longer on our own playing this way. Sides have learnt it and guess what?......they have players with greater skill level at deeper levels into their list to execute a way through the press than we do.

I don't think we looked tired at all last night. I felt we come to play....but then I watched a Cats side who are now learning to presssure/press and some of our guys skill level simply fell apart - not just in deplorable foot skills....have a look at the missed handballs in close.....the fumbles and poor decision making under pressure to a team mate standing still. In 2009.....we simply kicked backwards, played slow till we could get the ball into a Goddards hands. In 2011 we are no longer afforded that time as ALL sides now press up.

We are having done to us now what we did to sides so well in 09 except we dont posess the depth of skills in the list to work our way through it. Ironically you could argue that because we had built this game style and applied it to everyone else.....we'd never really needed to practice the antidote to it (while every other sides has had to). We do now.

Riewoldt doesnt have the space to lead up into. CONTESTED marking fwds are now the order of the day....weirdly I felt against Cats Kosi looked more dangerous up fwd than Roo......perhaps we need to overhaul our thinking on how we use him from now on?

[clarky449]

If Carlton Win one before us i will be gutted, pissed

[Sainternist]

I'm not over 2009.


It burns.

The heartbreak of 2009 and 2010 can only be remedied by a premiership.

God, just one bloody premiership. You'd that be a fair exchange after losing two in two years, right?

[clisaint]

Agree but think the disappointment of losing 2 GF's cannot be underestimated. I find it hard to get excited by watching us now so how would the players be actually feeling. I think if your stars are struggling there must be some mental problems as well as physical problems.

Definitely this. Not many teams can bounce back from that straight away- particularly how close both results were. I mean after the dominant season of 2009, to throw that GF away would be tough enough in itself. The players would be questioning themselves, but it would have provided a spur. That spur was enough to get us to the big dance again- to be denied a second year running would clearly be devastating to all the players. The amount of self-doubt that would creep in, they're only human after all... it's bound to take a massive toll.

[mick13]

It's ironic that we lost it to Collingwood who had the same thing happen to them 8-9 years ago.

How many players did they have that played back then? I think it was 4 or 5? Doesn't read nicely for our older players...

But they have the same coach.

Oh wells, hopefully I'll be around when we see our next one. Although ~60 years is starting to sounds like it could just be more heartbreak :p

[Moods]

I cant agree with this thread. It focusses ALL on the game plan...when the reality is its our personnel that have now been found out.

Ofcourse a fullpress game styleis taxing - its also mighty effective and the reason why ALL current AFL sides (with Pies best at it) are now doing it.

Are all these sides suddenly tired? No.

Reality is we are no longer on our own playing this way. Sides have learnt it and guess what?......they have players with greater skill level at deeper levels into their list to execute a way through the press than we do.

I don't think we looked tired at all last night. I felt we come to play....but then I watched a Cats side who are now learning to presssure/press and some of our guys skill level simply fell apart - not just in deplorable foot skills....have a look at the missed handballs in close.....the fumbles and poor decision making under pressure to a team mate standing still. In 2009.....we simply kicked backwards, played slow till we could get the ball into a Goddards hands. In 2011 we are no longer afforded that time as ALL sides now press up.

We are having done to us now what we did to sides so well in 09 except we dont posess the depth of skills in the list to work our way through it. Ironically you could argue that because we had built this game style and applied it to everyone else.....we'd never really needed to practice the antidote to it (while every other sides has had to). We do now.

Riewoldt doesnt have the space to lead up into. CONTESTED marking fwds are now the order of the day....weirdly I felt against Cats Kosi looked more dangerous up fwd than Roo......perhaps we need to overhaul our thinking on how we use him from now on?

Agree with all of this. Was actually thinking last night that Lyon was a genius to get us so close with a list so obviously lacking in skill. We would have to easily be in the bottom 4 clubs for skill level. The players who played last night who have below average skill level at the moment are

Gram, (I could kick better in the U12's I reckon)
CJ (tries his guts out and kicking has improved from deplorable to below average for AFL)
Bakes - Refuses to kick b/c he knows he's a liability.
Armo - sorry, once again tries his guts out, but the skill just isn't there for this level. Misses too many targets and should not be played in the fwd line.
Dempster - is actually a beautiful long kick, but can't spot a target if he tried.
Raph - has trouble spotting a man with hand or foot atm!
Gilbert - Can't kick on his right at all. His left is unreliable at best, and is not AFL standard atm. Gifted the cats an early goal last night when we had them on the back foot.

There are others who's skill fluctuate with form/confidence, ie Peake. At the moment at least he can hit a target.

Many others have just average skill for an AFL player. Only BJ, Gwilt, are outstanding kicks in our team. AND BJ'S down on form!!

Our game plan nearly won us two flags. Our game plan alone, b/c what we have seen is that the cats were always highly skilled and have managed to stay more than competitive. Our skill level is bringing us undone time and time again. This is why I reckon we have to keep playing Siposs and anyone else who can actually kick the ball.

[clisaint]

It's ironic that we lost it to Collingwood who had the same thing happen to them 8-9 years ago.

How many players did they have that played back then? I think it was 4 or 5? Doesn't read nicely for our older players...

But they have the same coach.

Oh wells, hopefully I'll be around when we see our next one. Although ~60 years is starting to sounds like it could just be more heartbreak :p

Wouldn't have been many- Didak, Johnson are the only ones (I think) who played in the losing grand finals and last years GF replay. I think there were some others who were still on the list last year but didn't take part.

[Teflon]

Our skill level is bringing us undone time and time again. This is why I reckon we have to keep playing Siposs and anyone else who can actually kick the ball.

Agree but THE problem (and its a huge one) Lyon has is:

Can he bridge a clear gap in skill level in 12 mths to ensure we get another shot at a flag with a core containing Riewoldt/Hayes?

Or

Are this group done?

Everytime I think about Cripps, Ledger, Sippos anc Co Im excited. Then I realise.....theyve played about 5 games between them and I think "get real...how big an impact is this group realistically gonna have in 2012..."

Then Im depressed. Then Im sure we are gonna have to trade some names to improve in that short a timeframe....

[True Blue Sainter]

It's ironic that we lost it to Collingwood who had the same thing happen to them 8-9 years ago.

How many players did they have that played back then? I think it was 4 or 5? Doesn't read nicely for our older players...

But they have the same coach.

Oh wells, hopefully I'll be around when we see our next one. Although ~60 years is starting to sounds like it could just be more heartbreak :p

Wouldn't have been many- Didak, Johnson are the only ones (I think) who played in the losing grand finals and last years GF replay. I think there were some others who were still on the list last year but didn't take part.

Leon Davis as well.

Presti didn't play in the grand finals did he? Fraser was on the list but wasn't in the GF sides.

Think Swan may have been on the list but not playing then.