Rd 13 Team vs Geelong

[Legendary]

If St Kilda only played the "kids" every year we weren't a chance for the Grand Final, I still think we would be without a win 100 years later ...

You can't just "stick the kids in". I don't care if we can't win the GF this year, but I bloody well want to beat the Cats this week.

The Saints have debuted more players than any other side in the competition in 2011.

What more do people want?


Tell me again - which midfielder do you drop for Ledger?

[joffaboy]

Geez some people seem to have absolutly no idea about team sport and team dynamics

Calling for the dropping of Raph, Gamble and even Gram is astonishing.

They play in one game with their futures obviously on the line and all played reasonably well in a winning side.

To drop them after one winning game would be terrible for team morale. What signal would that send.

It is obvious that there are many on here who have never been in football or in any leadership role otherwise the silly comments wouldn't be made.

Those three had to stay in, especially against a team who has won 11 straight and us going into the bye.

Joey and the Blake fit and have to be selected, so young ones who have more time to prove themselves and who wont possibly be delisted at year end, Simpkin and ledger gets dropped.

They are sensible ommissions and inclusions considering where we are on the ladder.

to the poster who said what sense does it make to "limp" into the eight. Well we make the eight, get finals experience for the likes of Armo, Steven, and maybe sipposs and one or even two others. Win a couple of finals, and we have blooded some good young ones.

To the other poster who screamed play the kids . I dont know which team you have been watching this year but we have played more kids than any other team bar the GC Suns - all in half a season of football.

Some people need to think before posting.

[SainterK]

It's worth noting that of the Cats 13 goals against Hawthorn, the only multiple goal scorers were Pods (6) Steve Johnson (2)

They are pretty devoid of a forward line themselves at the moment, with Hawkins / Mooney struggling for form.

If we put some time into Pods, and if Dempster/Baker keep Steve Johnson pretty quiet.

Ottens/Vardy is the part of the ground that would be of most concern to us.

[noob]

I think for us to win we really need riewoldt further up the ground and to attack on the fast break and keep the smaller blokes there.. In the past we've been pretty predictable kicking it riewoldt with taylor/lonergan/mackie/scarlett all spoiling at once.

[plugger66]

It's worth noting that of the Cats 13 goals against Hawthorn, the only multiple goal scorers were Pods (6) Steve Johnson (2)

They are pretty devoid of a forward line themselves at the moment, with Hawkins / Mooney struggling for form.

If we put some time into Pods, and if Dempster/Baker keep Steve Johnson pretty quiet.

Ottens/Vardy is the part of the ground that would be of most concern to us.

Isnt Ben nearly playing as well as anyone else in our side? I reckon our mids are the real issue not the backs or ruckmen.

[SainterK]

It's worth noting that of the Cats 13 goals against Hawthorn, the only multiple goal scorers were Pods (6) Steve Johnson (2)

They are pretty devoid of a forward line themselves at the moment, with Hawkins / Mooney struggling for form.

If we put some time into Pods, and if Dempster/Baker keep Steve Johnson pretty quiet.

Ottens/Vardy is the part of the ground that would be of most concern to us.

Isnt Ben nearly playing as well as anyone else in our side? I reckon our mids are the real issue not the backs or ruckmen.

Ben, IMO, is a midfielder with really long legs.

Their resting ruckman have kicked 7 goals in the last fortnight.

[gringo]

How many of Collingwoods kids were first year players? Beams and Sidebottom had been around a few years. Jarrad Blair may have been straight off the rookie list but I thought guys like Dawes had done about a five year apprenticeship in the ressies. You could easily make a case for strategic poaching of mature players from other clubs making a difference eg Ball, Jolly and L. Brown. Or say that having guys playing a mass of reserves games develops hunger when they make it to afl level eg Brown, Dawes, dick etc.

All I'm saying is play the kids is like a mantra from people that want change to punish the list for not bringing home the premiership. No kids get better from getting smashed by their opposite number. Who knows how much Kosi's and X. Clarkes injuries and even Ball came from us playing 18 yos as starting players to show our success starved fans we were developing?

[3rd generation saint]

Sadly, if Geelong kick 13 goals this week, based on our form, they will probably win.
We will need a forward structure this week, we just can't let Scarlett play by himself.
I have no doubt we can beat Geelong, but we have to create a dangerous, unpredictable forward line.

[Thinline]

Who do you drop for Ledger? Ask yourself that question.

Gamble maybe? But was excellent last week and coming up against his old side who he played well against in Round 1.

Raph? Different sort of player (although personally I think we have one too many half-backs in the team).

Peake? No, been in good form.

Steven? No, been outstanding.

Gram? Was good last week and hardness against the Cats would be preferred.



Before blowing off at the coach with the "youth vs experience" argument, have a good hard look at the side, our opponent and spend 10-15 hours thinking about selection like Ross Lyon would have done this week.


I think they've picked a very good side for Round 9 2011 to beat Geelong at night on the MCG.

Isn't that the aim?

Far to sensible an assessment for the nuffies on here, mate.

He's put our availables against their likelies and come up with the best fit.

We are playing the ladder leader, a team who've gone from freewheeling to defensive stodge.

We've pick a team for the conditions.

I have no problem with that at all.

As for the kid-o-philes...how many youngsters have worn our colours this year? Have you actually watched a single game? Embarrassing for you...

[Old Mate]

Selwood is a MASSIVE out. Gives me hope against a quality team full of confidence. If Joey does get up and isn't a late exclusion, I reckon we have the advantage in the middle. The Cats have really relied on Selwood to win the clearances with Bartel playing all over the place and no Ablett Jnr.

If we keep Stevie J quiet I reckon we'll win. Baker V Jonhson will be intriguing.

[spert]

Not convinced Monty will play- I thought he still hadn't got over his injury fully?? Ray for sub??

[Sobraz]

How many games have Vardy, Duncan, Menzel and T. Hunt played between them??

They are top of the ladder, yet they have the younger team...

There is no reason why 2 of Lynch, Sippos and/or Ledger couldnt be rotated into the team, to add something different to what is a tried, true and now stale side...

We are one week away from McQualter...

Gifitng players like Gamble a game on the back of nothing short of poor form doesn't exactly do much for team dynamics or morale either...

[Jacks Back]

"how many youngsters have worn our colours this year? Have you actually watched a single game? Embarrassing for you..."

I have watched all the games. Of course we have played the most kids since sliced bread (and GCS) but that is hardly the point. Just about everyone on here has said virtually all year that the players that got us to two premiership tilts are not up to it as a group. We need an injection of youth, blah, blah, blah. What Ross has done is play a lot of kids for, what appears to me, the sake of it rather than giving them a red hot crack. Aside from Sippo I don't think many got a real chance to show their wares at all. That's not playing the kids in my opinion. You've got to give them a chance - not 9 players in 9 weeks or whatever but maybe 2-3 for a number of weeks.

Also, you can't play Sippo as a second tallish forward (not yet anyway). It's like leading a lamb to the slaughter. He definitely needs to be the 3rd foward (who gets the 3rd defender) and then actually kick it to him when he leads (any chance of that happening)?

Don't get me wrong, Joey is in our best 6 and of course he should play but some of our older warhorses just don't cut the mustard anymore and these are the positions where the kids can play a number of weeks in a row.

[Dr Spaceman]

How many games have Vardy, Duncan, Menzel and T. Hunt played between them??

They are top of the ladder, yet they have the younger team...

There is no reason why 2 of Lynch, Sippos and/or Ledger couldnt be rotated into the team, to add something different to what is a tried, true and now stale side...

We are one week away from McQualter...

Gifitng players like Gamble a game on the back of nothing short of poor form doesn't exactly do much for team dynamics or morale either...

I've read a lot of posts on here suggesting Gamble went okay last week.

You may not like the fact he kept his spot. And others might share your dismay.

BUT, with respect, how could you possible know that it has adversely affected team morale?

[plugger66]

Not convinced Monty will play- I thought he still hadn't got over his injury fully?? Ray for sub??

Ray got coaches votes last week so that would be a strange move.

[Sobraz]

How many games have Vardy, Duncan, Menzel and T. Hunt played between them??

They are top of the ladder, yet they have the younger team...

There is no reason why 2 of Lynch, Sippos and/or Ledger couldnt be rotated into the team, to add something different to what is a tried, true and now stale side...

We are one week away from McQualter...

Gifitng players like Gamble a game on the back of nothing short of poor form doesn't exactly do much for team dynamics or morale either...

I've read a lot of posts on here suggesting Gamble went okay last week.

You may not like the fact he kept his spot. And others might share your dismay.

BUT, with respect, how could you possible know that it has adversely affected team morale?

Yep, I was just refering to a post a few above mine that suggested dropping Gamble would adversely affect team moral...

My point is picking him on no form would have just as much (or little) as affect...

In other words, none...

If he were dropped, I'm certain no other players would feel let down by his ommission... And play to the best of their ability on the day, as per usual...

IMO of course...

[Old Mate]

Got to play the best possibly team. Can't play kids just for the sake of it when finals is still very much on the cards. Different story if mathematically we couldn't make the finals.

Need momentum into next year as well. Can't just throw the season away and expect to bounce back immediately. It generally doesn't work that way.

[plugger66]

How many games have Vardy, Duncan, Menzel and T. Hunt played between them??

They are top of the ladder, yet they have the younger team...

There is no reason why 2 of Lynch, Sippos and/or Ledger couldnt be rotated into the team, to add something different to what is a tried, true and now stale side...

We are one week away from McQualter...

Gifitng players like Gamble a game on the back of nothing short of poor form doesn't exactly do much for team dynamics or morale either...

I've read a lot of posts on here suggesting Gamble went okay last week.

You may not like the fact he kept his spot. And others might share your dismay.

BUT, with respect, how could you possible know that it has adversely affected team morale?

Yep, I was just refering to a post a few above mine that suggested dropping Gamble would adversely affect team moral...

My point is picking him on no form would have just as much (or little) as affect...

In other words, none...

If he were dropped, I'm certain no other players would feel let down by his ommission... And play to the best of their ability on the day, as per usual...

IMO of course...

He was picked last week because he was our best forward at Sandy the week before. We wanted a forward in the side so we picked the player who was best of the forwards the previous week. Makes complete sense. He then does ok and there are no better options in the seconds so he gets another game.

[joffaboy]

How many games have Vardy, Duncan, Menzel and T. Hunt played between them??

They are top of the ladder, yet they have the younger team...

There is no reason why 2 of Lynch, Sippos and/or Ledger couldnt be rotated into the team, to add something different to what is a tried, true and now stale side...

We are one week away from McQualter...

Gifitng players like Gamble a game on the back of nothing short of poor form doesn't exactly do much for team dynamics or morale either...

I've read a lot of posts on here suggesting Gamble went okay last week.

You may not like the fact he kept his spot. And others might share your dismay.

BUT, with respect, how could you possible know that it has adversely affected team morale?

Yep, I was just refering to a post a few above mine that suggested dropping Gamble would adversely affect team moral...

My point is picking him on no form would have just as much (or little) as affect...

In other words, none...

If he were dropped, I'm certain no other players would feel let down by his ommission... And play to the best of their ability on the day, as per usual...

IMO of course...

He was picked last week because he was our best forward at Sandy the week before. We wanted a forward in the side so we picked the player who was best of the forwards the previous week. Makes complete sense. He then does ok and there are no better options in the seconds so he gets another game.

Oh FS please dont let facts get in the way of total ignorance

No - the coaches should have sdaid to Raph and Gamble, look you are playing for your football futures, you played OK in a winning team, but we are now going to drop you, well because, well just because

Yup really plays well with team dynamics. Thank god some of the some people on here dont pick the teams

[PJ]

Just about everyone on here has said virtually all year that the players that got us to two premiership tilts are not up to it as a group.

Well then we'd better ring Ross and tell him the brains trust at SS have spoken.

You don't get to the big dance 2 years running with a bunch of coulda beens. We've made big in roads to the bottom 6 by giving youngens a few games.

Can you seriously say that including Ledger and Simpkin will improve our chances Saturday? I don't see anything from either of them that suggests they can impact a game against the better teams for anything longer than a burst or 2.

They are the future and have begun their development, they are not the best here and now and more games does not qualify them as automatic improvers.

[To the top]

Sippos - Has shown his talent particularly with his disposal skills and could slot in with Riewoldt and Koschitzke to support him resulting in 4/5 disposals resulting in 2/3 goals. Has not been a prolific enough ball winner to date to occupy any other role.

Steven - automatic selection - if a little late.

McEvoy - Has skills with the ball, marking and in ground contests. Improving as a ruckman which you would trust is the result of having King and Gardiner at the club.

Winmar - showed he will compete at the elite level - again not prolific enough in winning the ball at this juncture but the signs are that this will come.

Armitage - A rock of a body as shown by his abilities to hand off after being tackled.

Stanley - Still a skinny kid with pace. Also has not had the required impact due to lack of possessions when chosen. But over 200cm and they do not grow on trees. Needs to find a position - and half back should not be discounted. Height, pace.

Lynch - Looked ok against Fremantle and has the build for a defensive flanker. Performance in attack still (unfortunately) measured by being given Fletcher. Has taken time and a move to defence to recover from that.

Simpkin - Showed signs with competent spoiling - whilst Fisher size and can take contested defensive marks he still appears to lack a vital centimetre which may come with experience and more mature reading and positioning. Tries to run the ball out which is a bonus.

Cripps - Perhaps has shown more than the others from last year's draft but now injured. Particularly liked his charging in off the centre square to give us numbers. Gets in very, very quickly. Likes a goal.

Ledger - 75% of Cripps except he has not been given the challengs of charging in off the square. Has had a taste which will stand him in good stead.

Johnson - Presented in only game until injured. Has the body and the attributes but I would like to see him given the challenge of putting pressure on Dawson. Appears a natural full back to me getting an education forward.

Smith - Has a dip and is workmanlike. Has pace and needs to work on kicking skills including on the right. Maybe a small defender given the likes we are seeing in the forward lines/mid-field at other clubs? Ackermanis run with job paints this scenario.

Archer - Has size but at 193cm only as a deep forward which is limiting. Hence the go at chb at VFL? Still learning.

Walsh, Heyne and Cahill (injured) have not had a crack this year so far so the jury is still out - they have to impress on the track and play some reasonable, consistent footy in the VFL where a different game to AFL footy is played. So reasonable and consistent are the by-words - aligned to what is shown on the track.

Gamble and Polo come from other clubs - and on performances to date and assessing what they may bring to the side off those performances they are transitory, insurance players who may struggle to be retained longer term - and particularly if the majority of those named above improve.

In summary, the only 3 demanding to be chosen at present - and in the absence of Cripps - are Steven, Armitage and McEvoy.

And those 3 are in the side.

Those vunerable to the above listed players are initially those on the wrong side of 30 - except Hayes and Gardiner who are the leaders of this side with their hard bodies at the vital contests - meaning Baker, Blake and Milne.

A small defender, a small forward and a journey man best suited to a back half role.

Plus the 2 we got from other clubs for this season.

You might add Peake and Dawson and I might agree on Dawson if Johnson shows what I hope he can show but Peake has impressed me in recent weeks with his closing speed on an opponent with the ball.

At least we can now make assessments of more on our list because we started this season with some 13 or so not having had more than a couple of games if any at all.

That has changed - as it needed to.

[bigcarl]

Johnson - Presented in only game until injured. Has the body and the attributes but I would like to see him given the challenge of putting pressure on Dawson. Appears a natural full back to me getting an education forward.

How many natural defenders do we need? It's a key forward that we're missing.

[Dr Spaceman]

Johnson - Presented in only game until injured. Has the body and the attributes but I would like to see him given the challenge of putting pressure on Dawson. Appears a natural full back to me getting an education forward.

How many natural defenders do we need? It's a key forward that we're missing.

Johnson played as a defender last year and all I read was "why did we draft him?"

Johnson has played as a forward this year and all I've read is "this guy could be the answer as a key forward".

So apart from the fact we really don't need another defender, one would have to figure that any future WJ has at our club will be up the scoring end.

[gringo]

johnson is too good forward to send back again. Simpkin is being groomed for the backline and Walsh seems to be getting more experience back.

[borderbarry]

To The Top wrote:
Walsh, Heyne and Cahill (injured) have not had a crack this year so far so the jury is still out - they have to impress on the track and play some reasonable, consistent footy in the VFL where a different game to AFL footy is played.


Walsh has been among the best each week recently. I dont know what more he has to do. I hope that when they do bring him in they leave him in for a fair while and let him learn the game at AFL level. I notice other Irishmen recruited after Tom have been playing and playing well. Our selectors need the courage to give him a go.