Why did we not take Wellingham?

[Dr Spaceman]

The Saints took a stand with an eye on the future.

It's easy to say something is better than nothing.

But what if they now go after, say, Goddard. They now know that they have to get serious with the Saints or there'll be no deal.

And Goddard, unlike Ball, won't last in the Draft until the Pies get a pick.

I'm pretty sure wellingham was never offered.

I still get really wound up by this notion : "The Saints took a stand with an eye on the future. "

What stand was taken for what future gain? Other than hokus pokus can you please explain how this helps our future? Other clubs now juwt know we are thick. Where is the future gainn from getting nothing for Ball? What "stand" was taken? Under what cirucmstances will this stand benefit us? I cant believe people have bought the club PR on this. I dont particularly care anymoer and Im well over it - but that people buy whatever the clubs spin at the time was is so gullible.

They actually DID get Ball for nothing - how would that change their mind if they went for Goddard? Would they not think they could also get Goddard for nothing and play the same cards? Im not sure how the actual real life happening of getting Ball for nothing makes them think they have to be serious with the Saints or no deal? There was NO DEAL and Ball is running around in a Pies jumper.
( in real life this could not happen now because GWS or GC have the salary cap room to pick anyone up)

I dont see how them getting Ball somehow teaches them a lesson? As if we showed them? I still need someone to talk me through the logica on this? Only the most parochial one-eyed Saint with very twisted logic can claim we had a win out of the Ball "trade".

As I said I dont really care - you win some you lose some. But in this case we lost. I just cant see how people still take it as a win.

Sorry I've got you all wound up Con. I recommend you take a Bex and lie down for a while.

Look this stuff will just keep coming up for the next 10 years.

Okay, let's say Wellingham was offered. And let's say we did take him. And let's say that under our tutorage he didn't progress and was running around at Sandy with Robert Eddy. Would people say they were happy because “we got something for Lukeâ€

[SaintPav]

Luke Ball went for the opportunity to play in the ones. Money had about 10% to do with it. I think it was obvious to him and many others that he was struggling to play as RL wanted him to. If it was money I dont think an extra 100K over 3 years would mean chucking loyalty away.

So why can he play like that now?

He was asked to be more offensive, in 2009 he only kicked 3 goals.

This year already he has kicked 8, so perhaps the dropping was justified, it just hurt his pride.

He wasn't asked to kick goals, he was asked to get to contests and he couldn't, even at Sandy. He just stood there, and still does now, but it suits their gameplan. He still wouldn't get a game at St Kilda.

I actually watched him very closley in 2009 and I may have been wrong, but he looked disinterested in a couple of games. I was waiting for him to get on his bike becuase I felt at the time that if he could recapture his 2004-06 form we would get our flag.

[samoht]

I actually watched him very closley in 2009 and I may have been wrong, but he looked disinterested in a couple of games. I was waiting for him to get on his bike becuase I felt at the time that if he could recapture his 2004-06 form we would get our flag.

Ball played a few shockers in 2009 ... he was one of our bottom 6 players if you look at his effectiveness over the whole year.
Watson tore him apart in a couple of games - I think Watson had two 40 possession games and Ball could only manage a measly 10 possessions against him on each occasion.

Ball was okay on a slow, wet surface maybe.

After setting the bar so high early on .. he had a few lean years.

[meher baba]

Luke Ball went for the opportunity to play in the ones. Money had about 10% to do with it. I think it was obvious to him and many others that he was struggling to play as RL wanted him to. If it was money I dont think an extra 100K over 3 years would mean chucking loyalty away.

So why can he play like that now?

He was asked to be more offensive, in 2009 he only kicked 3 goals.

This year already he has kicked 8, so perhaps the dropping was justified, it just hurt his pride.

He wasn't asked to kick goals, he was asked to get to contests and he couldn't, even at Sandy. He just stood there, and still does now, but it suits their gameplan. He still wouldn't get a game at St Kilda.

I actually watched him very closley in 2009 and I may have been wrong, but he looked disinterested in a couple of games. I was waiting for him to get on his bike becuase I felt at the time that if he could recapture his 2004-06 form we would get our flag.

Well, he certainly played pretty well in the finals in 2009. And he has played well at the Pies. So he did get on his bike to a certain extent after Lyon dropped him to the VFL: not back to his 2004-06 form, but I don't think his body is up to that any more.

I also agree that, if the name of the game for a mid at the Saints is to go from contest to contest and run 20 ks a game, then Luke will never fit in to our gameplan. But I reckon the Pies have shown that Luke can play a useful role as a hard tackler/ball winner at clearances and, in general play, as a loose player around the ground who can serve as a link man and set up, or even kick, the occasional goal.

I look at our team now and feel that the way Ball plays at the Pies would be helpful to us right here and now, and would have been in 2010 for that matter. But that wasn't the club's or coach's view and fair enough, it's their jobs that are on the line not mine.

But we should have at least gotten something for him. Wellingham or Goldsack or picks 25 and 62 would have been enough IMO. But it didn't happen, so it's no use crying about it.

[SaintPav]

Luke Ball went for the opportunity to play in the ones. Money had about 10% to do with it. I think it was obvious to him and many others that he was struggling to play as RL wanted him to. If it was money I dont think an extra 100K over 3 years would mean chucking loyalty away.

So why can he play like that now?

He was asked to be more offensive, in 2009 he only kicked 3 goals.

This year already he has kicked 8, so perhaps the dropping was justified, it just hurt his pride.

He wasn't asked to kick goals, he was asked to get to contests and he couldn't, even at Sandy. He just stood there, and still does now, but it suits their gameplan. He still wouldn't get a game at St Kilda.

I actually watched him very closley in 2009 and I may have been wrong, but he looked disinterested in a couple of games. I was waiting for him to get on his bike becuase I felt at the time that if he could recapture his 2004-06 form we would get our flag.

Well, he certainly played pretty well in the finals in 2009. And he has played well at the Pies. So he did get on his bike to a certain extent after Lyon dropped him to the VFL: not back to his 2004-06 form, but I don't think his body is up to that any more.

I also agree that, if the name of the game for a mid at the Saints is to go from contest to contest and run 20 ks a game, then Luke will never fit in to our gameplan. But I reckon the Pies have shown that Luke can play a useful role as a hard tackler/ball winner at clearances and, in general play, as a loose player around the ground who can serve as a link man and set up, or even kick, the occasional goal.

I look at our team now and feel that the way Ball plays at the Pies would be helpful to us right here and now, and would have been in 2010 for that matter. But that wasn't the club's or coach's view and fair enough, it's their jobs that are on the line not mine.

But we should have at least gotten something for him. Wellingham or Goldsack or picks 25 and 62 would have been enough IMO. But it didn't happen, so it's no use crying about it.

His GF was ok but we wasn't best on ground by a long shot.

I thought first two finals were average. Av Prelim.

I still had wished he stayed.

[gringo]

Imagine the stories if he had been a Saints player. "Saints driving into the gutter again""Disgraced Saints Repeat road manic issues" not the touchy- feely Collingwood "he needed his car to drive little old ladys to church" vibe he gets from the media now.

If the Pies get done for their Arizona dosage fiasco the media will portray it as Swan helps rid world sport of EPO by ingesting multiple doses so others aren't effected by it's use.

[BigMart]

It was a monumental F*** up........proof is in the pudding. Cannot be argued

They won, we lost......Luke will finish top 5 in a premiership team b&f two years running.... As a starting mid.... We have a woeful midfield...

We shafted ouselves, and two people were held accountable...

What is the answer to the simple question......why could luke not succeed in our side, but could be so important in a better side?

[Dr Spaceman]

It was a monumental F*** up........proof is in the pudding. Cannot be argued

They won, we lost......Luke will finish top 5 in a premiership team b&f two years running.... As a starting mid.... We have a woeful midfield...

We shafted ouselves, and two people were held accountable...

What is the answer to the simple question......why could luke not succeed in our side, but could be so important in a better side?

Look inside the Collingwood Medicine Cabinet and you shall find the answer

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

I'm just glad we didn't settle for pick 30 for him and use that pick on say, Nathan Vardy (who went at pick 42), who is being compared to Nick Riewoldt.
We wouldn't want him up forward helping Roo out at the moment and also helping out in the ruck!

[BigMart]

The 2009 draft period was the worst in our proud history....lovett, smith, pattison.....gone after 1 year and a combined Total of 5 games...

We paid well over a million bucks for 3 players, and got 55 posessions....1 goal.... about 20 grand a touch....or more than 200 000 a games, and 5 magic games tney were.....the stable of 09....not pretty.

And it cost us three young players in the draft.....

[Dr Spaceman]

I'm just glad we didn't settle for pick 30 for him and use that pick on say, Nathan Vardy (who went at pick 42), who is being compared to Nick Riewoldt.
We wouldn't want him up forward helping Roo out at the moment and also helping out in the ruck!

Easy to pick one bloke out. He went at 42, who's to say we would have taken him with a pick around 30.

Just as easy to pick out anyone of those blokes taken between 30 and 50 who in a few years time will be back playing local footy.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

I know, but that's boring and not funny!

[Dr Spaceman]

I know, but that's boring and not funny!

[Lounge]

It was a monumental F*** up........proof is in the pudding. Cannot be argued

They won, we lost......Luke will finish top 5 in a premiership team b&f two years running.... As a starting mid.... We have a woeful midfield...

We shafted ouselves, and two people were held accountable...

What is the answer to the simple question......why could luke not succeed in our side, but could be so important in a better side?

Look inside the Collingwood Medicine Cabinet and you shall find the answer

You still flogging that dead horse "they were taking drugs" thing? Seriously, the independent testing place (so there were no conspiracy theories) and the AFL (who wouldn't cover something like that up, no matter what anyone says) BOTH said there were no positive tests.
We lost. It's only 'a tainted flag' in our eyes because we are looking for excuses and it eases the pain. Nobody outside of this website sees it as 'tainted'. Nobody.

And don't give me that "they were JUUUUUSSTT under the legal limit!" garbage.. it just sounds desperate. I cringe whenever it's bought up on this board because its just so lame. Enough to actually stop lurking and post!

Maybe people don't want to hear the truth, but they did not win because of any drug taking okay? Acceptance is the first step towards change and we need to accept that altho we came close, the better team won on merit.

[Dr Spaceman]

It was a monumental F*** up........proof is in the pudding. Cannot be argued

They won, we lost......Luke will finish top 5 in a premiership team b&f two years running.... As a starting mid.... We have a woeful midfield...

We shafted ouselves, and two people were held accountable...

What is the answer to the simple question......why could luke not succeed in our side, but could be so important in a better side?

Look inside the Collingwood Medicine Cabinet and you shall find the answer

You still flogging that dead horse "they were taking drugs" thing? Seriously, the independent testing place (so there were no conspiracy theories) and the AFL (who wouldn't cover something like that up, no matter what anyone says) BOTH said there were no positive tests.
We lost. It's only 'a tainted flag' in our eyes because we are looking for excuses and it eases the pain. Nobody outside of this website sees it as 'tainted'. Nobody.

And don't give me that "they were JUUUUUSSTT under the legal limit!" garbage.. it just sounds desperate. I cringe whenever it's bought up on this board because its just so lame. Enough to actually stop lurking and post!

Maybe people don't want to hear the truth, but they did not win because of any drug taking okay? Acceptance is the first step towards change and we need to accept that altho we came close, the better team won on merit.

Nice first post Lounge!

The indicated I was just joking around, but at least it's allowed you to get a few things off your chest. Bravo.

[saintbrat]

so is the circuit of this thread now complete

we've covered Luke and the lost premiership and even answered the question to the best of our ability and knowledge

and even Mick M couldn't provide an answer so

** to answer the first question who knows but generally felt that Wellingham was not offered to the Saints.

[samoht]

Forget the past now .. it's gone.

What we do from now going forward is what's important.

A good education comes at a large cost .. it doesn't come cheap - we've paid that large cost ... as long as we now take this valuable (and costly) lesson we've learned (the hard way) forward - then we've made a wise move... that will serve us well into the future.

To mope over spilt milk = going nowhere.

I think the lesson to be learned is - we need to re-prioritise.

Recruiting is no. 1 .. we need to assemble the best recruiting team money can buy... skimp from the coaches side (take money off Peter if needs be) and redirect more money into recruiting area (to pay Paul).

Coaches as I said before live off the fat of the land.(i.e. the players)... and we need as much fat on the land as possible (by recruiting the best players possible at every occasion) - and you need the best recruiting team money can buy to do that.

Even a $100,000/year coach will get Collingwood to its next 2 premierships - due to the talent that they've recruited.

The lesson to be learned .. (but are we prepared to listen?) .. is
It's the recruiters (the invisible people working diligently behind the scenes) that make the most difference at the end.

[Old Mate]

The fact that the Pies were willing to give up Wellingham to North in order to get Ball says that they would have done a straight swap/with a pick with us (Wellingham/pick + for Ball). You cannot be certain but you would have to think that the Pies put that offer on the table but the Saints weren't looking for another midfielder, they had their eyes on Everitt.

But who knows what sort of player Wellingham may have been if he came to the Saints. Would he have the same opportunities? Coaches that could get the best out of him? Did he knuckle down because he was trade bait and was on the chopping block at the Pies? Who knows...

Anyway, no use dwelling on what could have been.

[saintbrat]

But who knows what sort of player Wellingham may have been if he came to the Saints. Would he have the same opportunities? Coaches that could get the best out of him? Did he knuckle down because he was trade bait and was on the chopping block at the Pies? Who knows...

Anyway, no use dwelling on what could have been.

reknuckling down

comment from L:B after he moved- "I know I have to work hard" my query has always been = why didn't he Know/do that at the saints....
Pies players have been quoted as saying they wondered what they had gotten after first training
and last re the actual Move- LB was training IN the pies altitude room BEFORE he was selected- why were the pies never sanctioned for breaking the drafting rules.

I loved him at the saints and was dissppointed that he and club ( nothing would even be one sided.\) could not work out for him to stay and I fully believe he is a solid citizen
but the hint that he felt he didn't need to work hard at the saints stuck with me. - the saints were on record as saying they wanted him to stay...
and even MM said he was approached about him going there- had never considered him prior to that and never really spoken to him..

[Old Mate]

But who knows what sort of player Wellingham may have been if he came to the Saints. Would he have the same opportunities? Coaches that could get the best out of him? Did he knuckle down because he was trade bait and was on the chopping block at the Pies? Who knows...

Anyway, no use dwelling on what could have been.

reknuckling down

comment from L:B after he moved- "I know I have to work hard" my query has always been = why didn't he Know/do that at the saints....
Pies players have been quoted as saying they wondered what they had gotten after first training
and last re the actual Move- LB was training IN the pies altitude room BEFORE he was selected- why were the pies never sanctioned for breaking the drafting rules.

I loved him at the saints and was dissppointed that he and club ( nothing would even be one sided.\) could not work out for him to stay and I fully believe he is a solid citizen
but the hint that he felt he didn't need to work hard at the saints stuck with me. - the saints were on record as saying they wanted him to stay...
and even MM said he was approached about him going there- had never considered him prior to that and never really spoken to him..

Just reckon the dude needed a change. He wasn't a fit at the Saints. I don't blame him for going. Getting limited game time / being on a knifes edge re: playing seniors or ressies / pay cut ect.

Saying that, I don't think he would be the same player he is at the Pies if he had of stayed with us. The move definitely reinvigorated him.

[plugger66]

But who knows what sort of player Wellingham may have been if he came to the Saints. Would he have the same opportunities? Coaches that could get the best out of him? Did he knuckle down because he was trade bait and was on the chopping block at the Pies? Who knows...

Anyway, no use dwelling on what could have been.

reknuckling down

comment from L:B after he moved- "I know I have to work hard" my query has always been = why didn't he Know/do that at the saints....
Pies players have been quoted as saying they wondered what they had gotten after first training
and last re the actual Move- LB was training IN the pies altitude room BEFORE he was selected- why were the pies never sanctioned for breaking the drafting rules.

I loved him at the saints and was dissppointed that he and club ( nothing would even be one sided.\) could not work out for him to stay and I fully believe he is a solid citizen
but the hint that he felt he didn't need to work hard at the saints stuck with me. - the saints were on record as saying they wanted him to stay...
and even MM said he was approached about him going there- had never considered him prior to that and never really spoken to him..

I dont see why that comment suggests he didnt work hard at the Saints. Obviously you have inside knowledge to suggest he didnt. Also love to know what rule he broke. Can you tell us that?

[kosifantutti23]

It was a monumental F*** up........proof is in the pudding. Cannot be argued

And we were one point away from:

"Brilliant decision to make a stand and let him go, proof is in the pudding. Cannot be argued."

[stinger]

It was a monumental F*** up........proof is in the pudding. Cannot be argued

They won, we lost......Luke will finish top 5 in a premiership team b&f two years running.... As a starting mid.... We have a woeful midfield...

We shafted ouselves, and two people were held accountable...

What is the answer to the simple question......why could luke not succeed in our side, but could be so important in a better side?

Look inside the Collingwood Medicine Cabinet and you shall find the answer

You still flogging that dead horse "they were taking drugs" thing? Seriously, the independent testing place (so there were no conspiracy theories) and the AFL (who wouldn't cover something like that up, no matter what anyone says) BOTH said there were no positive tests.
We lost. It's only 'a tainted flag' in our eyes because we are looking for excuses and it eases the pain. Nobody outside of this website sees it as 'tainted'. Nobody.

And don't give me that "they were JUUUUUSSTT under the legal limit!" garbage.. it just sounds desperate. I cringe whenever it's bought up on this board because its just so lame. Enough to actually stop lurking and post!

Maybe people don't want to hear the truth, but they did not win because of any drug taking okay? Acceptance is the first step towards change and we need to accept that altho we came close, the better team won on merit.

geez...we attract them, don't we...flower offback to your own board troll....ffs....

[saintbrat]

I dont see why that comment suggests he didnt work hard at the Saints. Obviously you have inside knowledge to suggest he didnt. Also love to know what rule he broke. Can you tell us that?

I have no inside knowledge and I am certain he did work hard at the saints
But why would he make the comment-? my reading of it was there were differances.to how he was going to apply.- but just my reading of his comment

no listed Player shall train with or play in any Match with a Club other
than the Club with which he is listed.
Sanction: Maximum 20 Units

page 33
http://aflpa.com.au/sites/all/files/AFL ... 202011.pdf

to my understanding he was not contracted to pies till the day before he flew out for Arizona? and was quoted on video during the next week as saying he was lucky they let him train in the high altitude room...


if you know differant then let me know.

[IluvHarvey]

Well if we were offered Sharrod he certainly knew nothing about it. Therefore I call bull***t!

He was however shopped to another club that year (and it wasn't North)