"the end of an era................"it must be said

[elphie]

oh well..let's look forward.
question 1 is : how can we build a top 4 stkilda team again? answer = trade dal and kosi for young potentials disgruntled at current club and draft those with speed and good foot skills especially
and question 2 is: how long will it take? answer = over 4 years

[vacuous space]

Trade Kosi? How on earth would we do that? Kosi and a third round pick for somebody's fourth round pick? He's getting old, he's got constant injury problems and he has barely dominated a game for about five years. I can't think of one team that would be better off ketting Kosi than putting some games into their young kids. If Stanley were anywhere near it right now, Kosi would be done.

[desertsaint]

kosi ian't trade bait.
dal certainly is - but would weaken the team and send all the wrong messages. the guy is in better form than most and giving more effort than most.

[GrumpyOne]

You never trade first level players, because the percentages are against you trading for better.

Trade second level players.... they still have appeal to others and your percentage return is more favourable.

Clarke, Gram, are two with currency.

[Furphy]

Unfortunately, the only "trade bait" we have, we can't really afford to lose.

[elphie]

we must be prepared fellow posters to trade out of our list issues.
if it is not DAL & KOSI then who is it?

the draft with GWS and GC concessions is not going to be strong enough to rebuild soon enough?

[saint66au]

Unfortunately, the only "trade bait" we have, we can't really afford to lose.

+1

[perfectionist]

Unfortunately, the only "trade bait" we have, we can't really afford to lose.

Sam Gilbert and Leigh Montagna, and then there's our new über-star, apparently a Robert Harvey-Lenny Hayes-Dane Swan combo. Should get three first round picks for him.

[bergholt]

the draft with GWS and GC concessions is not going to be strong enough to rebuild soon enough?

soon enough for what?

[thejiggingsaint]

While I agree that we need to look toward a partial rebuild, (the situation is FAR from being in need of a complete clearout and rebuild) I would humbly suggest that we consider the option of trading and recruiting at the appropriate time, and also that we take a very considered and deliberate approach to this issue.
I'm not sure that Dal Santo would be on any list of mine as "tradebait" (certainly not based on his game last night) I think we should learn from the Geelong example of 2006 when the whole club from top to bottom was subjected to an honest and thorough review. Yes, there are players who we will need to move on and off the list, others who will be the subject of trading. I personally think we would get very little for Kozi. The recruiters from the other clubs will be well aware of his limitations. It could be better to let Kozi spend some extended time in the VFL to find some form, or perhapps his best position? Gardiner, Baker, Blake should be publicly thanked by the club and given the opportunity of retiring at the Dome before a full house. Gram, Clarke, McQualter are candidates for trade in my opinion. We have a ruckman (Ben McEvoy) who is an emerging talent, a forward (Sipposs) in a similar state, a good SOLID full back is desperately needed as Zac Dawson looks decidedly "sus" against someone like Cloke. An end of an era? I prefer to think of it as the beginning of a NEW EXCITING one!

[Johnny Member]

You never trade first level players, because the percentages are against you trading for better.

But who would be better in 4-5 years time? Because this will be when we contend again (hopefully) if we do rebuild.

Dal (just for argument's sake), or the high draft pick he was swapped for?

[gringo]

Just as well Sydney started their rebuild by getting rid of Adam Goodes and Jude Bolton. Seriously you keep the good players.

[Johnny Member]

Just as well Sydney started their rebuild by getting rid of Adam Goodes and Jude Bolton. Seriously you keep the good players.

I don't think it is that clear cut.

There is no rebuild unless you get good young players into the club. Rebuilding doesn't just happen naturally. You must get good young players into the club together and grow them together as a group.

History shows that once this group plays around 50 games together, you start to see results.
Once this group becomes your core and hit the 23-25 year mark with 100 games under their belts - you're generally a contender.

WIthout bottoming out and hitting a draft jackpot for a year or two, it's basically impossible to rebuild this way. Unless of course, you trade for the high picks.

So if we don't bottom out for a year or 3, then we don't really have a choice but to trade for draft picks.
Otherwise, our 'rebuild' will most likely consist of a core of average-good players in 4-5 years time which just won't be good enough to challenge.

[Dr Spaceman]

Unfortunately, the only "trade bait" we have, we can't really afford to lose.

Sam Gilbert and Leigh Montagna, and then there's our new über-star, apparently a Robert Harvey-Lenny Hayes-Dane Swan combo. Should get three first round picks for him.

Hmmm, I wonder who that could be?

Is that the young man the AFL named the Rising Star at the same time you named him the Established Dud?

[gringo]

I don't see us as that far away still. We have a good core but need some embelishment. The bottom end of the list needs to get better constantly. Freo got great results in mature recruits, the dons got some nice recruits fro finishing near the bottom in a restricted draft- Heppell is really good, crameri looks a gun too. Just need some luck where ever recruits come from. We already have some potential guns, are playing a different style of GP. It took us a year to work out the Saintsfooty defensive game.

[Cairnsman]

Unfortunately, the only "trade bait" we have, we can't really afford to lose.

Why can't we aford to lose them? Is it becuase there is still a belief that we can pinch a premiership with them in the side? By the time we develop the next tier of players the currently players that we think we can't afford to lose wont be of any value to a team pushing for a flag. We have to trade elite players and get some more youthful talent. There are only a couple of keepers in the current crop of young draftees. You have to turn over quickly or languish at the bottom eternally. Last night proved we are about 6 to 8 players short and the age divide between our older elite and the couple of keepers in the team is bigger than the grand canyon.

[MCG-Unit]

What trade them to the G Coast, yes? 'Them' being Goddard and Riewoldt Dreamland

[Cairnsman]

What trade them to the G Coast, yes? 'Them' being Goddard and Riewoldt Dreamland

Dry your eyes princess.

I wouldn't trade both of them only one of them. If I could do a deal like Eagles and Carlton did with Judd I'd do it in a heartbeat. The truth of the matter is Roo and Goddard aren't going to play in a premiership at the Saints so why wouldn't you make a deal if it was what all parties wanted? Goddard would be an ideal trade from a value point of view and if Goddard wanted to go then it's a win win situation.

The current draft system is designed to reward bottom dwellers and that is what we need to do this year and pick up some early rounders. Maybe bottom out for couple of years even. And then to speed the process up trade an elite player for a top young player with oodles of talent and also some early round draft picks.

Bring on 2012

[plugger66]

What trade them to the G Coast, yes? 'Them' being Goddard and Riewoldt Dreamland

Dry your eyes princess.

I wouldn't trade both of them only one of them. If I could do a deal like Eagles and Carlton did with Judd I'd do it in a heartbeat. The truth of the matter is Roo and Goddard aren't going to play in a premiership at the Saints so why wouldn't you make a deal if it was what all parties wanted? Goddard would be an ideal trade from a value point of view and if Goddard wanted to go then it's a win win situation.

The current draft system is designed to reward bottom dwellers and that is what we need to do this year and pick up some early rounders. Maybe bottom out for couple of years even. And then to speed the process up trade an elite player for a top young player with oodles of talent and also some early round draft picks.

Bring on 2012

You say all that and then say bring on 2012 like you excited. I dont see anything exciting about finishing on the bottom.

[MCG-Unit]

What trade them to the G Coast, yes? 'Them' being Goddard and Riewoldt Dreamland

Dry your eyes princess.

I wouldn't trade both of them only one of them. If I could do a deal like Eagles and Carlton did with Judd I'd do it in a heartbeat. The truth of the matter is Roo and Goddard aren't going to play in a premiership at the Saints so why wouldn't you make a deal if it was what all parties wanted? Goddard would be an ideal trade from a value point of view and if Goddard wanted to go then it's a win win situation.

The current draft system is designed to reward bottom dwellers and that is what we need to do this year and pick up some early rounders. Maybe bottom out for couple of years even. And then to speed the process up trade an elite player for a top young player with oodles of talent and also some early round draft picks.

It was your topic heading 'Cut out the cancer Riewold and Goddard' wasn't it, you tough hombre? Great for visitors and bottom feeders to read

Now it's trade time -> and to your beloved G Coast is what you want - majorly transparent you are

I'm not ready to spend years on the bottom

[Cairnsman]

What trade them to the G Coast, yes? 'Them' being Goddard and Riewoldt Dreamland

Dry your eyes princess.

I wouldn't trade both of them only one of them. If I could do a deal like Eagles and Carlton did with Judd I'd do it in a heartbeat. The truth of the matter is Roo and Goddard aren't going to play in a premiership at the Saints so why wouldn't you make a deal if it was what all parties wanted? Goddard would be an ideal trade from a value point of view and if Goddard wanted to go then it's a win win situation.

The current draft system is designed to reward bottom dwellers and that is what we need to do this year and pick up some early rounders. Maybe bottom out for couple of years even. And then to speed the process up trade an elite player for a top young player with oodles of talent and also some early round draft picks.

Bring on 2012

You say all that and then say bring on 2012 like you excited. I dont see anything exciting about finishing on the bottom.

I do because next year we will be expected to end near the bottom of the ladder. Our finish this year will make it easy for most to make that prediction. It will take the expectation away from us and we can then go about rebuilding the list and finding new players without the baggage we are carrying this year. Port Adelaide are proving that you can't have a team divided by ageing stars and young players tyring to establish themselves. That was the great thing about the saints players that came together quickly from 1999 to 2002. They all grew together. We need to bottom out for a few years and keep turning players over until the right ones are found. I think RL is going to do it and I don't think he'll have any problem trading and elite player. We should keep RL for 10 year minimum.

[Leo.J]

Settle down people.

We're in a bit of trouble, but it's not over yet.

We'll still make the finals imo.

[Teflon]

Whats being argued here is:

1. Full , bottom out rebuild with stars traded for top picks.......Vs

2. 2nd tier players traded, bottom end improved via recruiting/trades, maintaining current core.

What are the risks with both?

1. - risks are we "wait" for the right batch of players to come through....(another Riewoldt) and instead end up in Carlton land for a decade (who only rapidly improved after later trading for a mature star in Judd...)

2. - risk - while waiting to have younger talent bridge the gap to help out our top echelon.....this top core ages to a point where they are no longer match winners....and not worth much at trade time....

I lean towards 1 for one main reason: the rebuild is well underway. By this I mean this "gap" we wait to have bridged we are starting to see already through the performances of Steven/Armitage who have produced games already that impact the contest (that helps the core and improves bottom end). Im also convinced Ledger , Sippos and Cripps have the goods to become more than useful players in 2012..again bottom end is improved...in 2013 these guys should be primed.

Is our core at 29/30 in 2013 a realistic group still good enough to challenge?

[St Chris]

A core of Roo, Hayes, Dal, Goddard, Montagna, Fisher etc should still be playing finals footy.

Our problem is this, one is playing as a $600,000 decoy, and we wont see another until 2012. Only Dal and Fisher have been consistently respectable this year.

We dont need a full bottom out/start again. We need games into quality kids, and we need our experienced players to play better than they have been.

[dcstkfc]

Settle down people.

We're in a bit of trouble, but it's not over yet.

We'll still make the finals imo.

I think we'll get close if we don't but what is a finals spot?