an impression.....

[saintbrat]

it has confused me that some supporters can " trade. ban. delist. turf out.. abuse from behind a keyboard... denigrate... " players who have and are giving service to the St Kidla football club.

a good behaviouralist will work on the positives to advance the well being of all concerned.. give someone a point to work toward by accentuating what they are doing well- this team we currently have have shown how the negativity can press you down and restrict your ability to act freely and in the moment.

there are now signs that the positive is building on itself......
so what do some supporters do but look to break the bonds the team are building ( Yes I acknowledge that changes may occur every year- natural attrition occurs)


but it has just come to me that some supporters appear so used to the saints ' trading away" options they are neglecting to build from within, to provide 'SUPPORT'
as you read- the St Kilda Team of the past would get That close and then due to many reasons ( often financial) they felt the need to make the quick change- board, coach, players.......

it would appear to me .. that currently we have a stable Board, stable facilities, few debts( or not as large as some) membership could be higher but it's not as bad as some, and the majority of the team WANT to be with St Kilda. ( unlike some who are still getting over the debilitation of being a saint )


why would you want to destabilise by devaluing the Core... ( yes I can see some think they are putting Value on players by even offering them ) but you can't value a person by offering to say goodbye...

recent years have given us such highs, we seem to be struggling to believe.


loyalty

the state or quality of being loyal; faithfulness to commitments or obligations.

loy·al·ty (loil-t)

n. pl. loy·al·ties
1. The state or quality of being loyal. See Synonyms at fidelity.
2. A feeling or attitude of devoted attachment and affection. Often used in the plural: My loyalties lie with my family.

works both ways....

[bigcarl]

well said

[Bernard Shakey]

Good post saintbrat, but the reality is the game is professional sport and players are mere assets these days. Most of our players didn't ask to be Saints. They build up comradeship within the group, but all know that it is at the whim of the club.
When free agency comes along in the next couple of years you'll see players moving all over the place.
The only people loyal to clubs are the supporters.

[stinger]

well said

+1

[dcstkfc]

Great post Bratty, but that's not to say I don't agree to some extent with Bernard. I guess we can try and foster player loyalty with a strong culture and the promise of success.

And if fans are the only loyal ones, what does that make guys like Loewey who turned down a huge amount from Freo to stay at Moorabbin, or Burkey who has now devoted his time to being on the board?

[Con Gorozidis]

agree. lets not trade anything unless absolutely forced to.

and lets find out own talent. trading is lazy/cheating and basically never works these days.

[Thinline]

Good post saintbrat, but the reality is the game is professional sport and players are mere assets these days. Most of our players didn't ask to be Saints. They build up comradeship within the group, but all know that it is at the whim of the club.
When free agency comes along in the next couple of years you'll see players moving all over the place.
The only people loyal to clubs are the supporters.

Too true. Will be interesting to see what's left of this 'asset' in a generation.

[saintsRrising]

it has confused me that some supporters can " trade. ban. delist. turf out.. abuse from behind a keyboard... denigrate... " players who have and are giving service to the St Kidla football club.

I can only half agree I am afraid.

I agree about the denigrating part.....

However...make no mistake this is a forum to discuss all things to do with the Saints..

It is not just a groupie site to fawn over the Saints.

As a forum topics such as trades, delisiting, performance of individuals etc are all valid topics.

Denigrating of players is not.

there is nothing wrong with a forumite expressing their views about who should or should not be in our best 22 etc.

[SinCitySaint]

This is now a fully professional sport where the prime motivating factor for players is financial. These are not guys who have any real connection to our club other than the vagaries of who drafted them. The AFL have pushed on them this attitude of forget the club you followed growing up that is irrelevant now you will go where you are told. In the past players were loyal to a club because they were part of the local community or they were zoned to a specific club. Players are no longer part of any community apart from their own as professional footballers.

The players believe that they are the reason people go to the football and therefore deserve as much money as they can possibly wring out of the game. However, they are wrong, we all go to see the saints play because of the club and not because of a specific player. If Nick Reiwoldt was not a St Kilda player I would still follow St Kilda and probably dislike Nick Reiwoldt in the same way as I dislike Chris Judd.
The players are equally as loyal to the club as we the supporters are loyal to saints players. If a player leaves the saints, like Luke Ball, they immediately lose our support and loyalty but gain the support and loyalty of a whole new group of supporters. Why should the players be loyal to a club, we the supporters are the club and we are not loyal to them?

The only reason we have not seen large numbers of players move already is because the mechanism to allow players to make their own deals has not been available. Now with free agency coming in that mechanism is becoming available. Wait and see the massive scrabbling for money that will now eventuate. While the league pretends to have a salary cap but does not enforce it, as has been shown with Judd deal and others which I won't mention, free agency will return us to the ways of the 70s the richest clubs will get all the top players and the poorer clubs return to also rans. Do not be surprised when in 20 years Collingwood, by way of pure financial clout, have 8 or 9 of the top 10 players in the league running around for them while still miraculously remaining under the salary cap. Also do not be surprised to see the number of years for free agency eligibility decrease pretty quickly from 10 to 8 to 5 to 2 years to open free agency.

This is not the end of the game or anything so dramatic, but just a logical progression caused by the money centric nature that has become the cornerstone of our game. We will soon look like the English Premier league where only two or three clubs can ever hope to win it and the others all fight for scraps.

This went off on a tangent somewhat but what I was trying to say is why should we as supporters not discuss which players we would like to see in our colours and which ones we would like to show the door, when we are loyal to the club and not the player as are they.

[ausfatcat]

Wait and see the massive scrabbling for money that will now eventuate. While the league pretends to have a salary cap but does not enforce it, as has been shown with Judd deal and others which I won't mention, free agency will return us to the ways of the 70s the richest clubs will get all the top players and the poorer clubs return to also rans

This is what a lot of people don't realise.

The salary cap rules need to be tightened significantly before free agency comes into it. Third party payments outside of the salary cap are allowed in the AFL (unlike most sports with a salary cap, ie NRL) which basicly makes the salary cap insignificant.

btw third party payments is what the storm did.

[Cairnsman]

Remember when you used to save up to buy a footy jumper and then save a little more to get the number of your favorite player stuck on it then only to find out at seasons end that the traitor had left the club. How many times did that happen to young Saints supporters back in the eighties and nineties. St Kilda was especially the victim of unloyal behavior with players being attracted to other more successful and cashed up clubs that could buy a premiership and pay their players a lot more than St Kilda could. How dare those players leave our club for more money and a chance to play in a premiership. Unthinkable behavior.
Well if that wasn't bad enough then along came Jackson and turned the whole circus into a national competition and called it AFL. A not for profit organization that represents everything we love about capitalism. And therein lies the state of play. Loyalty comes with conditions in the AFL.

[St Lenny]

Great post Saintbrat and totally agree. "If" we were to loose this week, watch the knives come out again though

[plugger66]

Remember when you used to save up to buy a footy jumper and then save a little more to get the number of your favorite player stuck on it then only to find out at seasons end that the traitor had left the club. How many times did that happen to young Saints supporters back in the eighties and nineties. St Kilda was especially the victim of unloyal behavior with players being attracted to other more successful and cashed up clubs that could buy a premiership and pay their players a lot more than St Kilda could. How dare those players leave our club for more money and a chance to play in a premiership. Unthinkable behavior.
Well if that wasn't bad enough then along came Jackson and turned the whole circus into a national competition and called it AFL. A not for profit organization that represents everything we love about capitalism. And therein lies the state of play. Loyalty comes with conditions in the AFL.

So the VFL was no good for our club because players left and now it is no good because we are the AFL. Makes we wonder why you follow the game. There must be something good happening.

[Cairnsman]

Remember when you used to save up to buy a footy jumper and then save a little more to get the number of your favorite player stuck on it then only to find out at seasons end that the traitor had left the club. How many times did that happen to young Saints supporters back in the eighties and nineties. St Kilda was especially the victim of unloyal behavior with players being attracted to other more successful and cashed up clubs that could buy a premiership and pay their players a lot more than St Kilda could. How dare those players leave our club for more money and a chance to play in a premiership. Unthinkable behavior.
Well if that wasn't bad enough then along came Jackson and turned the whole circus into a national competition and called it AFL. A not for profit organization that represents everything we love about capitalism. And therein lies the state of play. Loyalty comes with conditions in the AFL.

So the VFL was no good for our club because players left and now it is no good because we are the AFL. Makes we wonder why you follow the game. There must be something good happening.

Are you on the peace pipe early today. I love the game. That was my attempt at satire. How do you think I went.

[plugger66]

Remember when you used to save up to buy a footy jumper and then save a little more to get the number of your favorite player stuck on it then only to find out at seasons end that the traitor had left the club. How many times did that happen to young Saints supporters back in the eighties and nineties. St Kilda was especially the victim of unloyal behavior with players being attracted to other more successful and cashed up clubs that could buy a premiership and pay their players a lot more than St Kilda could. How dare those players leave our club for more money and a chance to play in a premiership. Unthinkable behavior.
Well if that wasn't bad enough then along came Jackson and turned the whole circus into a national competition and called it AFL. A not for profit organization that represents everything we love about capitalism. And therein lies the state of play. Loyalty comes with conditions in the AFL.

So the VFL was no good for our club because players left and now it is no good because we are the AFL. Makes we wonder why you follow the game. There must be something good happening.

Are you on the peace pipe early today. I love the game. That was my attempt at satire. How do you think I went.

I would have tried this for comedy. Why did the chicken leg... Because there is no bones in ice cream.

[Cairnsman]

Remember when you used to save up to buy a footy jumper and then save a little more to get the number of your favorite player stuck on it then only to find out at seasons end that the traitor had left the club. How many times did that happen to young Saints supporters back in the eighties and nineties. St Kilda was especially the victim of unloyal behavior with players being attracted to other more successful and cashed up clubs that could buy a premiership and pay their players a lot more than St Kilda could. How dare those players leave our club for more money and a chance to play in a premiership. Unthinkable behavior.
Well if that wasn't bad enough then along came Jackson and turned the whole circus into a national competition and called it AFL. A not for profit organization that represents everything we love about capitalism. And therein lies the state of play. Loyalty comes with conditions in the AFL.

So the VFL was no good for our club because players left and now it is no good because we are the AFL. Makes we wonder why you follow the game. There must be something good happening.

Are you on the peace pipe early today. I love the game. That was my attempt at satire. How do you think I went.

I would have tried this for comedy. Why did the chicken leg... Because there is no bones in ice cream.

Knock, Knock

[Junction Oval]

I would have thought that Player Loyalty is about "The Group" first. That then transcends to "The Club," second.

With the current AFL rules, there are very few of the top players that can move at their free will, which helps to galvanise the players together. Free Agency will test that and we will then find out what players really think.

At the end of the day, the Club is the supporters, and may we stay strong

My longer term concern is that the strong will get stronger and back-door deals will be overlooked (eg Judd). Melbourne is simply not big enough to finance 10 increasingly money-hungry clubs. Whether we like it or not, some will go within the next 10 years or less.

[The Fireman]

Loyalty ? Tell that to Hall Ball Plugger, the supporters are the only real loyal ones and I believe we have the right to say what we like.
If I don't like a player I will say so, if I think a player should be traded I will say so and if anyone thinks that makes me a keyboard hero then they should say it to my face otherwise they will look like hypocrites.

[plugger66]

I would have thought that Player Loyalty is about "The Group" first. That then transcends to "The Club," second.

With the current AFL rules, there are very few of the top players that can move at their free will, which helps to galvanise the players together. Free Agency will test that and we will then find out what players really think.

At the end of the day, the Club is the supporters, and may we stay strong

My longer term concern is that the strong will get stronger and back-door deals will be overlooked (eg Judd). Melbourne is simply not big enough to finance 10 increasingly money-hungry clubs. Whether we like it or not, some will go within the next 10 years or less.

Im not sure that is right. The AFL got such a huge TV deal based on 18 clubs. If some go there will be less money and I know obviously less clubs to distribute it to so that may not make a huge difference. However if the AFL are making huge money then they will obviously be able to save all the clubs. Some may have to move and some may struggle to ever win a flag again but I think all 18 can and will survive due to the amount of money in the game. I also dont think free agency will have that much effect because of the salary cap. Even though many do not believe this, the AFL ideally want every club to have a chance to win a flag every few years. That is why a cap and draft were introduced so they will pretty closely watch back door deals as you call them.

[SinCitySaint]

Plugger I don't think the number of clubs will drop below 18 because as you say the TV deal is based on the number of games. What is more likely to happen is that some of the poorer clubs will be replaced or forced to relocate. However, I do believe that the competition will end up with only a few power houses able to win the premiership each year and everyone else just also rans. The AFL would not be opposed to this after all it hasn't exactly harmed the English Premier Leagues ability to make money.

[plugger66]

Plugger I don't think the number of clubs will drop below 18 because as you say the TV deal is based on the number of games. What is more likely to happen is that some of the poorer clubs will be replaced or forced to relocate. However, I do believe that the competition will end up with only a few power houses able to win the premiership each year and everyone else just also rans. The AFL would not be opposed to this after all it hasn't exactly harmed the English Premier Leagues ability to make money.

Except clubs are going broke over there. Why would the AFL bring in a salary cap and drafting if they didnt want to make it level for most clubs?

[Richter]

People talk about a lack of loyalty to the original club in the round ball game, but that is not always the case.

Take the 2 finalists in the Champions League....

Barcelona - most of their players came through the youth team including the superstar Messi who has been at the club since he was 13 y.o.

Man United - they had a famous group, 'the class of '92 - which included Giggs, Scholes, Nevilles x 2, Beckham. They have had a 'core' group of longstanding players with a manager who has been there for 25 years.

----------------

There is a realisation at these clubs of something that is even more evident in AFL - that the team is far greater than the individual talents of the individuals put together. And that it takes a long time of training together and playing together to form such an effective team.

It is wrong to say that sports players are solely motivated by money - some may be, but the majority of the best players, whilst of course wanting to be financially well remunerated for their efforts, want above all else TO WIN.

And that is exactly what we want them to do as well.

[spert]

I agree totally about the team philosophy. Last year's GF was a good example of a few players trying to drag the whole team over the line, when really a good overall team effort would have delivered the flag. Fortunately RL has been forced to play younger players, made it clear that if you don't perform you get dropped- and we will see the fruits of this over the next few years...maybe even this year! NDS has clearly got the wake up call and played well against Freo.

[SaintPav]

the AFL ideally want every club to have a chance to win a flag every few years.

Probably some clubs more than others such as GC and GWS.

[gringo]

It is funny how after what has been our most sustained period of success ever we are becoming more frustrated by our list. The guys that have carried us for the last 5 or 6 years don't seem to have any credit for past achievements. Guys like Gram that were one of the reasons for our finals success are now thrown out by forumites. Gram was a Saints supporter growing up and as such I like him more than players that didn't, a bit like Peckett. Our players are victims of their success, because they nearly got there they have left a frustrated fan base wanting blood. A couple of pieces of luck and they would be eternal heroes. Tough gig football.