luke ball

[Mr Magic]

... It is the fact that he basically made it impossible for us to get a fair trade for him by refusing to talk to any club other than Collingwood. Other clubs were interested Melbourne, Richmond and Essendon all stated that he was a player that they would have liked but he would not even talk to them. It meant we had to deal with Collingwood only and that was with the pies in a position of strength where they did not need to offer us anything we wanted.

One could be forgiven for suspecting that there was a 'plan' in place well before Trade Week for Mr Ball to become a Collingwood player

Which, if true, is fine.
But then why the 'desperate need' by all those connected with Ball and Collingwood to paint themselves as 'the victim/good guy' and St Kilda/Lyon as the 'bad guy' in all of this?

To my way of thinking, a 'great clubman' if he's determined to leave would ensure that the 'club he loves' got something out of the situation.
For all the negativity towards Judd, he at least made sure that WCE got something back for his leaving.

[skeptic]

IMO it's clear that whilst Lyon may not have forced him to leave, he made little effort in retaining him.

It's pretty clear Ross didn't rate him

[Mr Magic]

IMO it's clear that whilst Lyon may not have forced him to leave, he made little effort in retaining him.

It's pretty clear Ross didn't rate him @ 600k per season

Edited for my thoughts on that aspect.

So when do you think he decided to go to Collingwood?
After the Monday of Trade Week?
After the GF?
2 months before when he came out of contract and Connors started sniffing around other Clubs for offers?

And when do you think Connors/Ball and Collingwood discussed/agreed on the terms of his contract?
After he declared he wanted to go to Collingwood, and only Collingwood?
Or before he declared his intention?

I'd really like to discuss this whole sorry saga in an unemotional and logical way.

It makes absolutely no sense to believe that Ball didn't already have a contract in place prior to the Monday afternoon when he declared his intention to leave.
So when did he come to terms with tehm?

I put great store in the 'article' by Greg Denham in The Australian prior to the finals that Collingwood were prepared to pay him around 500k per season.
IMHO, it obviously was a 'tidbit' fed to Denham by Connors as a means of trying to force St Kilda into a 'bidding war' for Ball.
If he was truly upset with his handling why bother to float that story?
Just negotiate and leave.
But no, an attempt was made to up the ante and create an 'auction'.

Well St Kilda obviously decided he was only worth 360k pa maximum.

(And if you think that piece of BS promulgated by Collingwood/Connors and 'fed' to the Herald Sun that Ball is playing for nothing next season, for the benefit of Collingwood, you probably also believe that there are pixies at the bottom of the garden.

[SainterK]

Dunno the answer to that MM, but I do know he admitted to frequenting the Collingwood high altitude rooms while still on our list.

[Saints43]

Dunno the answer to that MM, but I do know he admitted to frequenting the Collingwood high altitude rooms while still on our list.

I have never heard that. Was that in-season or post-season after his relationship with St Kilda had broken down and he had decided to leave?

LB made the right decision to leave. He went to work for a club that rated him for what he could do rather than only see what he couldn't do.

Robert Eddy was getting selected when LB was at Sandringham. Cos he could spread. Surely plans can be more flexible to suit talented personnel...

And, MM, as this is your favorite subject you know that LBs previous contract was backended. He was on $600K for one season. Not per season.

[MCG-Unit]

^^^

Honestly Saints43, I wouldn't bother, I tried more than once to discuss this topic in a civil manner, and was slammed, and talked down to..........

[skeptic]

Edited for my thoughts on that aspect.

So when do you think he decided to go to Collingwood?
After the Monday of Trade Week?
After the GF?
2 months before when he came out of contract and Connors started sniffing around other Clubs for offers?

I think he was considering being traded b4 the GF... when Collingwood? That I wouldn't have a clue.
Chances are his management had offers sussed out well b4 then.

The version of the saga I believe was that RL didn't rate LB's ability to run games out... and also read something on here reportedly from the "Inside the Bubble" book or whatever about not playing Ball for more than 10min a quarter due to his opponents being able run off him and damage us more.
I apologize for the lack of details RE sources.

Me personally, I get/got the sense that RL didn't rate Ball and that it was his intention to gradually phase him out, use him as a depth player something like that.

I think that Ball got a strong senes that he wasn't particularly wanted and I believe that RL did little to try and persuade him to stay.

I think the way he was used late in 09 confirmed his doubts and the GF was the nail in the coffin... unmistakable confirmation if you will that he wasn't wanted though I believe he would have preferred to stay.

When Collingwood came into the picture exactly I don't know. No doubt they clearly made him the best offer of any club us included and Ball did everything he could to get there.
Completely looked out for himself and himself only.
Though personally I don't blame him for that.

[Johnny Member]

It's pretty clear Ross didn't rate him

That's pretty much what Misson said in his book wasn't it?

[SainterK]

Dunno the answer to that MM, but I do know he admitted to frequenting the Collingwood high altitude rooms while still on our list.

I have never heard that/ Was that in-season or post-season after his relationship with St Kilda had broken down and he had decided to leave?

LB made the right decision to leave. He went to work for a club that rated him for what he could do rather than only see what he couldn't do.

Robert Eddy was getting selected when LB was at Sandringham. Cos he could spread. Surely plans can be more flexible to suit talented personnel...

And, MM, as this is your favorite subject you know that LBs previous contract was backended. He was on $600K for one season. Not per season.

He went to a club that best suited him, instead of seeing how he could best suit his club. I agree that it was the right decision for a person who placed individually shining, over team.

Collingwood 'rated' him because they had Shane O'Bree, who was hardly Lenny like wouldn't you say?

Here is the article, you may think him justified in doing so S43, I certainly don't...

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/b ... public_rss

But in comments sure to have rivals such as Melbourne and Essendon miffed, he revealed he had done "five or six" altitude-room sessions at Lexus Centre before flying out last Friday, the day after the national draft.

Ball refused to talk to Melbourne and Essendon in the lead-in to the national draft, effectively dissuading them from taking him.

"I met a few of the the boys around the traps including the skipper (Nick Maxwell) who I am living with here, so it's made the transition a bit easier," Ball said.

"A couple of weeks before the draft, just in case this happened, I was able to sneak down to Lexus Centre and do five or six sessions in the altitude centre."

[skeptic]

Edited for my thoughts on that aspect.

So when do you think he decided to go to Collingwood?
After the Monday of Trade Week?
After the GF?
2 months before when he came out of contract and Connors started sniffing around other Clubs for offers?

I think he was considering being traded b4 the GF... when Collingwood? That I wouldn't have a clue.
Chances are his management had offers sussed out well b4 then.

The version of the saga I believe was that RL didn't rate LB's ability to run games out... and also read something on here reportedly from the "Inside the Bubble" book or whatever about not playing Ball for more than 10min a quarter due to his opponents being able run off him and damage us more.
I apologize for the lack of details RE sources.

Me personally, I get/got the sense that RL didn't rate Ball and that it was his intention to gradually phase him out, use him as a depth player something like that.

I think that Ball got a strong senes that he wasn't particularly wanted and I believe that RL did little to try and persuade him to stay.

I think the way he was used late in 09 confirmed his doubts and the GF was the nail in the coffin... unmistakable confirmation if you will that he wasn't wanted though I believe he would have preferred to stay.

Not wanted perhaps the wrong phrase. Not the preferred option, time in the seniors marked... something like that

When Collingwood came into the picture exactly I don't know. No doubt they clearly made him the best offer of any club us included and Ball did everything he could to get there.
Completely looked out for himself and himself only.
Though personally I don't blame him for that.

[Mr Magic]

Dunno the answer to that MM, but I do know he admitted to frequenting the Collingwood high altitude rooms while still on our list.

]I have never heard that. Was that in-season or post-season after his relationship with St Kilda had broken down and he had decided to leave? Post season, before the draft and when he was supposedly 'in limbo'
And, MM, as this is your favorite subject you know that LBs previous contract was backended. He was on $600K for one season. Not per season.

Which is why St Kilda offered him 1 million over 3 years - what they believed he was worth.

It was Connors/Collingwood who subsequently 'leaked' the story to The Australian that they were prepared to pay him 500k per season.

Saint43, you believe what you want to believe, as do I and everybody else who has no inside knowledge of what actually transpired.

All I'm saying is that the facts don't simply add up to him being shifted/shafted/thrown out like the garbage as many on here want to depict it as.
And as Collingwood and Connnors want to depict it as.

As I've said repeatedly, I have no issue with him leaving for better money/opportunity/facilities or any other reason.

I only take issue with the deliberate campaign he allowed 'his people' to run that 'demonized both our Club and Coach.

That's what I take exception to in this whole sorry saga.
Many players (even some champions) have left their original club for 'greener pastures'.
Are there other examples of the negativity hurled at St Kilda like this Ball departure?
I cannot recall any in the last decade or so?

Luke Ball's going to Collingwood reminds me much of Nathan Buckley walking out on Brisbane in a deal that had been engineered well before the event took place.

[Saints43]

Collingwood 'rated' him because they had Shane O'Bree, who was hardly Lenny like wouldn't you say?

Definitely. But I'm sure that LB & LH could play in the same midfield. And did.

Here is the article, you may think him justified in doing so S43, I certainly don't...

That article is from December. He may have had a contract with St Kilda when he used the pies facilities but he certainly wasn't a Saints player by then.

[Mr Magic]

Edited for my thoughts on that aspect.

So when do you think he decided to go to Collingwood?
After the Monday of Trade Week?
After the GF?
2 months before when he came out of contract and Connors started sniffing around other Clubs for offers?

I think he was considering being traded b4 the GF... when Collingwood? That I wouldn't have a clue.
Chances are his management had offers sussed out well b4 then.

The version of the saga I believe was that RL didn't rate LB's ability to run games out... and also read something on here reportedly from the "Inside the Bubble" book or whatever about not playing Ball for more than 10min a quarter due to his opponents being able run off him and damage us more.
I apologize for the lack of details RE sources.

Me personally, I get/got the sense that RL didn't rate Ball and that it was his intention to gradually phase him out, use him as a depth player something like that.

I think that Ball got a strong senes that he wasn't particularly wanted and I believe that RL did little to try and persuade him to stay.

I think the way he was used late in 09 confirmed his doubts and the GF was the nail in the coffin... unmistakable confirmation if you will that he wasn't wanted though I believe he would have preferred to stay.

Not wanted perhaps the wrong phrase. Not the preferred option, time in the seniors marked... something like that

When Collingwood came into the picture exactly I don't know. No doubt they clearly made him the best offer of any club us included and Ball did everything he could to get there.
Completely looked out for himself and himself only.
Though personally I don't blame him for that.

You may be correct, but I'll pose a question that might make you think again.
If Lyon didn't want/rate Ball that highly, why would he agree to offer him a salary package that would make him amongst the top 5-10 salaries at the Club.
Surely you would offer a salary package commensurate with where you rated him on the 'pecking order'. A depth player wouldn't be offeed anything like 1 million over 3 seasons.

I just don't accept the 'myth' (IMHO) that has been told so often and loudly by people that Lyon 'didn't rate Ball'.
Misson's book makes it clear that they had worries over his ability to sustain his performance for more than 10 minutes.
Nowhere, to my knowledge, has anybosy ever stated (or posted a link) that Lyon 'didn't rate' Ball - other than Connors/Ball's camp floating it during Trade Week in an attempt to put pressure on St Kilda to do a trade.


And excuse me if I decide not to believe much of what Connors states or feeds to the media.
(Never forget the circus Connors orchestrated with Judd moving to Carlton)

[SainterK]

Collingwood 'rated' him because they had Shane O'Bree, who was hardly Lenny like wouldn't you say?

Definitely. But I'm sure that LB & LH could play in the same midfield. And did.

Here is the article, you may think him justified in doing so S43, I certainly don't...

That article is from December. He may have had a contract with St Kilda when he used the pies facilities but he certainly wasn't a Saints player by then.

...and would of, had he stayed.

I don't see his being dropped as the sign of an end of a career personally, Dal seemed to still manage it to 200 games, Milne has done OK as well.

Sewell was dropped last year, Brian Lake is in the two's, Beams isn't getting a game, Taylor Walker knows all about it...and they are just the one's that come to mind now.

In regards to the article, I still think it's wrong, thus the need to 'sneak' down there. It also points to the fact he was already sure of where he was going to land when he jumped.

[Saints43]

Are there other examples of the negativity hurled at St Kilda like this Ball departure?
I cannot recall any in the last decade or so?

Who, of any note, has left St Kilda in the last decade?

Luke Ball leaving Saints caused angst amongst supporters in exactly the same way that Hamill leaving carlton did to that club.

I'm sure LBs people put the best spin - releasing contract negotiating info -on him leaving because that's in his best long term interests.
But, how did the world know that St Kilda didn't rate him all that highly because he 'couldn't spread'? Because that's what St Kilda told journos.

[plugger66]

Edited for my thoughts on that aspect.

So when do you think he decided to go to Collingwood?
After the Monday of Trade Week?
After the GF?
2 months before when he came out of contract and Connors started sniffing around other Clubs for offers?

I think he was considering being traded b4 the GF... when Collingwood? That I wouldn't have a clue.
Chances are his management had offers sussed out well b4 then.

The version of the saga I believe was that RL didn't rate LB's ability to run games out... and also read something on here reportedly from the "Inside the Bubble" book or whatever about not playing Ball for more than 10min a quarter due to his opponents being able run off him and damage us more.
I apologize for the lack of details RE sources.

Me personally, I get/got the sense that RL didn't rate Ball and that it was his intention to gradually phase him out, use him as a depth player something like that.

I think that Ball got a strong senes that he wasn't particularly wanted and I believe that RL did little to try and persuade him to stay.

I think the way he was used late in 09 confirmed his doubts and the GF was the nail in the coffin... unmistakable confirmation if you will that he wasn't wanted though I believe he would have preferred to stay.

Not wanted perhaps the wrong phrase. Not the preferred option, time in the seniors marked... something like that

When Collingwood came into the picture exactly I don't know. No doubt they clearly made him the best offer of any club us included and Ball did everything he could to get there.
Completely looked out for himself and himself only.
Though personally I don't blame him for that.

You may be correct, but I'll pose a question that might make you think again.
If Lyon didn't want/rate Ball that highly, why would he agree to offer him a salary package that would make him amongst the top 5-10 salaries at the Club.
Surely you would offer a salary package commensurate with where you rated him on the 'pecking order'. A depth player wouldn't be offeed anything like 1 million over 3 seasons.

I just don't accept the 'myth' (IMHO) that has been told so often and loudly by people that Lyon 'didn't rate Ball'.
Misson's book makes it clear that they had worries over his ability to sustain his performance for more than 10 minutes.
Nowhere, to my knowledge, has anybosy ever stated (or posted a link) that Lyon 'didn't rate' Ball - other than Connors/Ball's camp floating it during Trade Week in an attempt to put pressure on St Kilda to do a trade.


And excuse me if I decide not to believe much of what Connors states or feeds to the media.
(Never forget the circus Connors orchestrated with Judd moving to Carlton)

We have done stupid contracts before. I will pose this question to you, why if he did rate him did he drop him a second time, we know about the first, and play him bugger all in the most important game of the year? LB is a very smart man and I reckon he read it perfectly. He wasnt in our plans so why not look elswhere.

[Mr Magic]

Are there other examples of the negativity hurled at St Kilda like this Ball departure?
I cannot recall any in the last decade or so?

Who, of any note, has left St Kilda in the last decade?

Luke Ball leaving Saints caused angst amongst supporters in exactly the same way that Hamill leaving carlton did to that club.

I'm sure LBs people put the best spin - releasing contract negotiating info -on him leaving because that's in his best long term interests.
But, how did the world know that St Kilda didn't rate him all that highly because he 'couldn't spread'? Because that's what St Kilda told journos.

Big difference between the Hammill scenario and the Ball one.
Hammill was 'flamed' publicly by the Carlton President.
Who from St Kilda publicly flamed' Ball?

[plugger66]

Are there other examples of the negativity hurled at St Kilda like this Ball departure?
I cannot recall any in the last decade or so?

Who, of any note, has left St Kilda in the last decade?

Luke Ball leaving Saints caused angst amongst supporters in exactly the same way that Hamill leaving carlton did to that club.

I'm sure LBs people put the best spin - releasing contract negotiating info -on him leaving because that's in his best long term interests.
But, how did the world know that St Kilda didn't rate him all that highly because he 'couldn't spread'? Because that's what St Kilda told journos.

Big difference between the Hammill scenario and the Ball one.
Hammill was 'flamed' publicly by the Carlton President.
Who from St Kilda publicly flamed' Ball?

I think the other difference is Hamill was still getting a game and Bally was out of favour. Also was Hamill flamed by the president before leaving or is that just another myth that gets better with time.

[Mr Magic]

Edited for my thoughts on that aspect.

So when do you think he decided to go to Collingwood?
After the Monday of Trade Week?
After the GF?
2 months before when he came out of contract and Connors started sniffing around other Clubs for offers?

I think he was considering being traded b4 the GF... when Collingwood? That I wouldn't have a clue.
Chances are his management had offers sussed out well b4 then.

The version of the saga I believe was that RL didn't rate LB's ability to run games out... and also read something on here reportedly from the "Inside the Bubble" book or whatever about not playing Ball for more than 10min a quarter due to his opponents being able run off him and damage us more.
I apologize for the lack of details RE sources.

Me personally, I get/got the sense that RL didn't rate Ball and that it was his intention to gradually phase him out, use him as a depth player something like that.

I think that Ball got a strong senes that he wasn't particularly wanted and I believe that RL did little to try and persuade him to stay.

I think the way he was used late in 09 confirmed his doubts and the GF was the nail in the coffin... unmistakable confirmation if you will that he wasn't wanted though I believe he would have preferred to stay.

Not wanted perhaps the wrong phrase. Not the preferred option, time in the seniors marked... something like that

When Collingwood came into the picture exactly I don't know. No doubt they clearly made him the best offer of any club us included and Ball did everything he could to get there.
Completely looked out for himself and himself only.
Though personally I don't blame him for that.

You may be correct, but I'll pose a question that might make you think again.
If Lyon didn't want/rate Ball that highly, why would he agree to offer him a salary package that would make him amongst the top 5-10 salaries at the Club.
Surely you would offer a salary package commensurate with where you rated him on the 'pecking order'. A depth player wouldn't be offeed anything like 1 million over 3 seasons.

I just don't accept the 'myth' (IMHO) that has been told so often and loudly by people that Lyon 'didn't rate Ball'.
Misson's book makes it clear that they had worries over his ability to sustain his performance for more than 10 minutes.
Nowhere, to my knowledge, has anybosy ever stated (or posted a link) that Lyon 'didn't rate' Ball - other than Connors/Ball's camp floating it during Trade Week in an attempt to put pressure on St Kilda to do a trade.


And excuse me if I decide not to believe much of what Connors states or feeds to the media.
(Never forget the circus Connors orchestrated with Judd moving to Carlton)

We have done stupid contracts before. I will pose this question to you, why if he did rate him did he drop him a second time, we know about the first, and play him bugger all in the most important game of the year? LB is a very smart man and I reckon he read it perfectly. He wasnt in our plans so why not look elswhere.

You're missing my point entirely. I have no problem with Ball leaving.
I only have a problem with the 'cheap shots' he allowed his people to take at our Coach and Club whilst he was trying to leave and after he left.

Oh and BTW, why did Lyon drop him the first time?
Given that was seemingly the impetus for Connors to go looking for an alternate Club (and not the reduced salsry package as I believe) which was the start of Ball's decisoin to leave the Saints.

[Mr Magic]

Are there other examples of the negativity hurled at St Kilda like this Ball departure?
I cannot recall any in the last decade or so?

Who, of any note, has left St Kilda in the last decade?

Luke Ball leaving Saints caused angst amongst supporters in exactly the same way that Hamill leaving carlton did to that club.

I'm sure LBs people put the best spin - releasing contract negotiating info -on him leaving because that's in his best long term interests.
But, how did the world know that St Kilda didn't rate him all that highly because he 'couldn't spread'? Because that's what St Kilda told journos.

Big difference between the Hammill scenario and the Ball one.
Hammill was 'flamed' publicly by the Carlton President.
Who from St Kilda publicly flamed' Ball?

I think the other difference is Hamill was still getting a game and Bally was out of favour. Also was Hamill flamed by the president before leaving or is that just another myth that gets better with time.

No Hammill was 'flamed' by Elliott whilst he was deciding whether to stay, go to the Swans or come to us.
He hadn't decided at that stage and apparently Elliot's tirade was enough to 'tip him over' into leaving.

[Dr Spaceman]

No Hammill was 'flamed' by Elliott whilst he was deciding whether to stay, go to the Swans or come to us. 
He hadn't decided at that stage and apparently Elliot's tirade was enough to 'tip him over' into leaving.

That's how I recall it MM.

[plugger66]

Are there other examples of the negativity hurled at St Kilda like this Ball departure?
I cannot recall any in the last decade or so?

Who, of any note, has left St Kilda in the last decade?

Luke Ball leaving Saints caused angst amongst supporters in exactly the same way that Hamill leaving carlton did to that club.

I'm sure LBs people put the best spin - releasing contract negotiating info -on him leaving because that's in his best long term interests.
But, how did the world know that St Kilda didn't rate him all that highly because he 'couldn't spread'? Because that's what St Kilda told journos.

Big difference between the Hammill scenario and the Ball one.
Hammill was 'flamed' publicly by the Carlton President.
Who from St Kilda publicly flamed' Ball?

I think the other difference is Hamill was still getting a game and Bally was out of favour. Also was Hamill flamed by the president before leaving or is that just another myth that gets better with time.

No Hammill was 'flamed' by Elliott whilst he was deciding whether to stay, go to the Swans or come to us.
He hadn't decided at that stage and apparently Elliot's tirade was enough to 'tip him over' into leaving.

So Jack probably knew he was leaving and had a go at him.

[samoht]

Let's not beat about the bush here .. "the air conveyance" could not provide the much needed run and carry and spread our team needed.

Watson used to get 40 damaging possessions on "the air conveyance" regularly - while "the air conveyance" could only manage 12 - maybe we should have given him number 45.

.. plus the fact that "the air conveyance" wanted more money than he was worth... and started looking for greener pastures.

[AlpineStars]

My opinion is it was one of the biggest blunders our club has ever made, (and we've made a few) To let him go to a club that we were going to be competing with for a flag in the next couple of seasons was horendous and to let him get there for nothing was worse. Melbourne were very keen on him and we should have made sure he got there if he didn't want to stay.
I would have prefered to keep him as he is a quality person dedicated to being a professional sportsman.
Polo Patterson Gamble Lovett Dempster and all the other rejects we've picked up can't hold a candle to him.

[stinger]

Supporters who want to convince themselves that losing ball has cost us zero.....

Ball......for nothing
Lovett......for #16

The most incompetant, short-sighted decision made by the club....in recent history......and thats some history....even recent.

Those who rated lovett.....deluding themselves, essendon fans thought he could play on his day, but also knew that getting a first rounder for an unpredictable, inconsistent player with discipline problems was a steal....they were glad to see the back of him, disliked by players and frustrated coaches...

Those who underrate Ball.....underestimate the value of character. We used to laud the way he continually got knocked out putting his head over it, we loved his tackling, we loved his hardness.. Can't learn that attitude, also Ball is a quality individual, and proved this after winning the gf with collingwood...a lesser man would have thrown it in our faces, Ball looked to Lenny and the boys, clearly felt for them and almost felt bad about celebrating...all of this whilst milney and co were giving him a hard time..

It makes me sick to see him at collingwood, he loved stk....i think he actually did love robert harvey....

The real question is, why did he want to leave???

Money only..... Well a 50% pay cut would be baulked at by most.... Minimal game time.... Perhaps.... Getting ignored in the 09 grand final... Likely

I said in the 09 off season, the decision to get rid of (or not retain) ball, maguire, clarke..... Would hurt the fabric of the club.... I stand by that.

Its not like we got compensated

Reality says
We got lovett for ball and #16...... although thats not the actual trade, it worked out that way
We got jesse smith for X.Clarke
We got Will Johnson for Maguire

Take three quality humans out of an organisation.....it is always going to hurt....it also says results mean more than loyalty to players......so inturn, surely they think, their personal results mean more than loyalty to a club.

Not sure you could have picked three more popular people....maybe lenny




and maxy....

this months inside sport which i just saw has a big picture of luke on the front page under the heading...the toughest smartest player in the afl.....


....of course his leaving has had a tramatic effect on the other players....

...he was part of the pact that swore they would stay together as a group until they won a flag....

...then luke leaves for whatever reason and helps the filth defeat us for the ultimate prize....i'm shattered...why wouldn't the players be 100 times worse