Footy classified

[saintjake]

Just saw on twitter that Gaz Lyon said he would move 11 saints on but it only mentioned Ray in the tweet, anyone else see who else he said? I missed it!

[Megsie]

did he mean to mlbourne FC ??

should check out his own pathetic backyard b/4 slagging ours !!!

[Teflon]

From memory in no order:

Gram
Kosi
Dempster
Dawson
Raph
Mqualter
Baker
Blake
Jones

cant think of rest. Comment made "not mych value there"...hard to disagree...Dawson interesting...hmm...tempting...

His view was its major clean out time - what he didnt say was what do you tell Riewoldt and Co who are left "hi guys, could we get you in the era of free agency to just play out your career with no chance of a flag while we develop?"

[azza12]

he also had geary, polo and gamble in the list

[#1GILL]

Gram
Kosi
Dempster
Dawson
Raph
Mqualter
Baker
Blake
Jones

Yes
No
No
No
No
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes

IMO

[Dr Spaceman]

His view was its major clean out time - what he didnt say was what do you tell Riewoldt and Co who are left "hi guys, could we get you in the era of free agency to just play out your career with no chance of a flag while we develop?"

Exactly.

I've read a few posts suggesting Free Agency could be our saviour however it could equally stuff us big time.

Roo and a few other don't have the luxury of hanging around for 5 or more years in the hope of another crack at a flag.

[Teflon]

Gram
Kosi
Dempster
Dawson
Raph
Mqualter
Baker
Blake
Jones

Yes
No
No
No
No
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes

IMO

IF I was offered a good deal for kosi Id take it.
Demspter Id leave at the door.
Gram Id drive to West Sydney.
Dawson was interesting....not sure...could Simpkin be a better model aka Frawley at melbourne?

[#1GILL]

Gram
Kosi
Dempster
Dawson
Raph
Mqualter
Baker
Blake
Jones

Yes
No
No
No
No
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes

IMO

IF I was offered a good deal for kosi Id take it.
Demspter Id leave at the door.
Gram Id drive to West Sydney.
Dawson was interesting....not sure...could Simpkin be a better model aka Frawley at melbourne?

I reckon we HAVE to hold on to Dawson. He's still young and will probably be in his prime by the time we are ready to challenge again. From memory he polled the most votes out of any player in our B&F last year during the finals series, if not then he was in the top couple. He's a quality defender when his confidence is up.
I think he can be a pivitol player for us in the coming years.

[Spinner]

Agree on Dawson.

1 - not too many other options for full back.

2 - he provide flexibility as he can compete with the forward moving ruckman allowing us to hold our setup.

[evertonfc]

From memory in no order:

Gram
Kosi
Dempster
Dawson
Raph
Mqualter
Baker
Blake
Jones

Gram - keep. Can at least use pace. Confidence player; his [currently poor] kicking generally revolves on his confidence. He least breaks the lines and moves us quickly.

Kosi - keep if he accepts a massive pay cut and can ruck. Otherwise I'd be happy to see him delisted.

Dempster/McQualter/Jones - keep one of them. Only room for one defensive player. Each has strengths [Dempster - kicking, McQ - tackling, Jones - close-checking] and weaknesses [ball winning / pace / brain].

Blake - gone. Shouldn't play again, really.

Baker - see Blake.

Raph - All the chances in the world and still just a VFL player.

Dawson - unbelievably overrated by people on this site. No game/ball awareness. Low skilled. Poor one-on-one. Struggles to punch. Opposition forwards love to play on him. But do we have alternative? Disturbing that he doesn't put bulk on his arms, too.

I'd add:

Eddy - doesn't do enough in games. Reminds me of that tagger we got from Brisbane who averaged 7.6 touches per game before doing his knee [Jayden Attard].

Gardiner - wouldn't be surprised by a mid-season retirement.

----
Jury's out:
- Gamble, Peake, Polo...all three are fighting to save their AFL careers right now.

[hungry for a premiership]

I think Dawson is over-rated, too.

I really think our backline, and our entire side, looks better without him in it. St.Kilda has a long history of duds, Jason Daniels was the biggest IMO, and Dawson is one. Only players with skill and football nous, please.

[meher baba]

Lyon's entitled to his opinion and he's probably largely on the money.

I think Dawson is a reasonably good player. I still think Blake, McQualter and perhaps Dempster have something to offer.

Don't really disagree about the others named by Lyon, although it would be a very sad end to Kosi's once stellar career.

All fair enough, but you get rid of all these players and it still wouldn't address the fact that we have a seriously under strength/immature midfield department at our club. Armo, whom Ross didn't seem to rate until he had no choice, is now our senior in-and-under player!

I think there was an idea at the club that Saints Footy didn't require the sort of midfield engine room that was once considered essential. Now the Pies have come along and shown what you can do to opponents playing something akin to Saints Footy with a powerful midfield (Truth to tell, the Cats have been doing something fairly similar since they re-grouped in 2006).

[3rd generation saint]

This is all good in theory, but the question back to Lyon is how do you replace 11 players?
Not enough draft picks and massive loss of experience.
As I said in another post, most clubs would average a turnover of about 6 players per season and 3 of ours will be the retirement of Baker, Blake and Gardiner.

[InkerSaint]

I tried to make this point in the Rebuilding thread. It's all good and well freeing up spots on the list but where will the draft picks come from? If it's the back end of the draft we end up with project players who more likely than not will be back out the door in two years' time.

It can't happen in the space of a year, and now of all times with two new clubs skimming the cream we'd need to wheel and deal like mad.

[goddardisgod]

Without going nuts, you can realistically take:

1st- 4th rounds- Kids
5th round- Preseason Draft/ Mature age player
6th onwards- Promoted rookies

So i'ld say we have 3 retirements (Blake, Baker and Gardiner).

Who's next off the chopping block?

[Johnny Member]

I've read a few posts suggesting Free Agency could be our saviour however it could equally stuff us big time.

Roo and a few other don't have the luxury of hanging around for 5 or more years in the hope of another crack at a flag.

The reason these blokes would genuinely want to hang around (aside from being legitimately loyal people) would be if we had a 2 year influx of exciting young blokes, which suggested a bright future within the next 3-4 years.


I agree with Lyon's comments. We came close, really close.

But things didn't go our way. So such is life, and especially football life, you simply start again and strap yourself in for the ride.

[Johnny Member]

I tried to make this point in the Rebuilding thread. It's all good and well freeing up spots on the list but where will the draft picks come from? If it's the back end of the draft we end up with project players who more likely than not will be back out the door in two years' time.

It doesn't matter.

You cut them and try again the following year or two.

But, you may find a James Hird or a Sam Fisher in there aswell.


If you're rebuilding, you do it properly. Which means of course also, you need players on the list that the young guys can learn from.


The idea has to be along the lines of...

1) Who on the list won't be part of the next Grand Final team?
2) Who could we get some decent draft picks for?
3) Who on the list can be a valuable teacher (on and off-field) to our draftees, even though they may not be part of the next flag assault?*


Anyone on the list after the first question, goes to the transit lounge.

Anyone on the list after the second question, also goes to the transit lounge.

Anyone in the transit lounge who gets a 'yes' to the third question, gets called back out of the transit lounge and starts pre-season training.

Anyone left in the transit lounge at this point, gets the arse.


And clearly, there will need to be one or two guys who get a tick for question 2 and question 3, and a tough decision would need to be made.




*This 'teaching' is not just about mentoring the young guys, it's teaching them on-field aswell. Not just through ability and experience and by example - it's also in a structural sense. Meaning, you don't want to send a team of young kids into battle with no CHB and no FB and give these jobs to 18yo's without any help. Or start a game with 4 17yo's in the guts on their own.
Bare in mind aswell, that with the mental scarring and the apparent emotional damage caused by the 2 GF losses, there may even be some surprises as to which players may not get a tick for question 3. There may be some considered damaged goods with too much baggage.

[matrix]

yup
dempsters strength is his kicking.

[SaintPav]

Gram: maybe
Kosi: maybe
Dempster: keep
Dawson: keep
Raph: NO
Mqualter: No
Baker: No
Blake: No
Jones: No

[spert]

Have a look at the last three GFs and that is a good indication of who is not going to contribute to a premiership. The players who stood up to the level required were Hayes, Goddard (though got injured in 09), Gram (doing Ok in the replay until injured), Gwilt, Zac, Gilbert (apart from terrible disposal), Fisher and then it all fizzles out. Take that lot out of the equation and you will see where the weaknesses are.

[GrumpyOne]

11 experienced players is too much to delist in one hit, especially when you don't have experience in your back-up players. IMO everyome on the list should be given two games in the ones before the end of the season. We then delist five of the above list, plus the non-performers from back-ups. Repeat the same procedure at the end of 2012. There is no need to bottom out. We can retain a mid-level on the ladder whist we rebuild.

We have to be ruthless. Reputations and club loyalty mean nothing now, and I'm talking coaching staff as well as players. Not performing = seeya later.

[Thinline]

11 experienced players is too much to delist in one hit, especially when you don't have experience in your back-up players. IMO everyome on the list should be given two games in the ones before the end of the season. We then delist five of the above list, plus the non-performers from back-ups. Repeat the same procedure at the end of 2012. There is no need to bottom out. We can retain a mid-level on the ladder whist we rebuild.

We have to be ruthless. Reputations and club loyalty mean nothing now, and I'm talking coaching staff as well as players. Not performing = seeya later.

Yep.

Some decisions will make us cringe.

And we'll lose some that don't fit here but may elsewhere. You've gotta expect that too.

All part of the ride.

Personally I don't think we need to bottom out either, but a la GC, I'd happily see us lose by 50 as long as there's glimpses of effort, endeavour and skill along the way. The players that deliver those things stay. The others don't.

[borderbarry]

I think you will find Raph was one of our best in the 2009 finals campaign!

[Thinline]

I think you will find Raph was one of our best in the 2009 finals campaign!

Like Gram's GF that year - it's a long time ago.

[GrumpyOne]

I think you will find Raph was one of our best in the 2009 finals campaign!

Like Gram's GF that year - it's a long time ago.

Agreed...... As Henry Ford said "History is bunk".