Ease up on the Mids!

[saintjake]

Yes we are being smashed in the centre.
But in all honesty, it must be hard to get a clearance they have to react and not predict.
Without a ruckman winning a tap instead of having a plan as to where the Ruckman is going to tap the ball, they have to react to where the opposing ruckman wants to hit is thus giving the opp. mids a distinct advantage!

Although, im not saying im happy with our mids. effort either.

[Thinline]

Nup. Beyond Armo's tirelessness, they've been pretty much truly s***.

There's an unwillingness to be first in.

I'm not letting them off the hook that easy.

[Bernard Shakey]

Who exactly were the opposing ruckmen?

Hawks had no ruckmen, we were up against Roughead for goodness sake.
They lost their ruckman early in the game and then took control. Our mids are rubbish at the moment.

[saintjake]

Who exactly were the opposing ruckmen?

Hawks had no ruckmen, we were up against Roughead for goodness sake.
They lost their ruckman early in the game and then took control. Our mids are rubbish at the moment.

So Roughhead Beat our Ruckman, so did the rookie from brisbane.
have we won the hitouts once this year?

[Enrico_Misso]

Yes
Stop making excuses for a lamentable effort.

Hawks lost their Ruckman Hale in the 2nd quarter.
They also lost Gilham very early in the match.

So we should have walked all over them in the ruck.
And with their rotations limited we should have run all over them in the second half.

But we didn't.

WHY ??????????????????????????

[dcstkfc]

I'm not letting anyone off the hook. Dal and Joey have been exposed, and Armo is a Luke Ball like grunt player, not a Lenny Hayes clearance machine.

We actually won our share of hitouts today, didn't make a difference.

[Thinline]

Winning hitouts is never a good guide to clearances. You'd think it would/should be, but I don't reckon it ever is. Personally I think Macca should just feign interest in the ball and aim for body contact so the ball tends to drop in a roughly predictable ring. Mids can then simply work on staying in front. Crude, but it might give us a base.

[Bernard Shakey]

Winning hitouts is never a good guide to clearances. You'd think it would/should be, but I don't reckon it ever is. Personally I think Macca should just feign interest in the ball and aim for body contact so the ball tends to drop in a roughly predictable ring. Mids can then simply work on staying in front. Crude, but it might give us a base.

And who of our disinterested lot would be able capitalise on that tactic?

We lost Lenny and they all lost heart.

[Thinline]

Winning hitouts is never a good guide to clearances. You'd think it would/should be, but I don't reckon it ever is. Personally I think Macca should just feign interest in the ball and aim for body contact so the ball tends to drop in a roughly predictable ring. Mids can then simply work on staying in front. Crude, but it might give us a base.

And who of our disinterested lot would be able capitalise on that tactic?

We lost Lenny and they all lost heart.

I'm not convinced it's so much disinterest as confusion as to technique.

If we simplify the process, limit the variables, and give them one direction, maybe they'll get some ball, and with that confidence grows.

But I'm hearing you. They've been really horribly feeble. They're only one game away from turning it around though. Who wants to stand up and be the grunter? Who can do it?

Give Gilbo a brief?

[Richter]

The Hawks had 59 inside 50s to our 31.

I'd wager that half of ours were in the first quarter whilst perhaps 6 of theirs were.

We kicked a goal every third time we went inside 50, and conceded every 4th.

What these stats imply is that our attack was more efficient than theirs, and our defence more robust.

The game is won and lost, however, in the midfield. The midfield, of which the ruckmen are a part, were absolutely slaughtered.

[dcstkfc]

Winning hitouts is never a good guide to clearances. You'd think it would/should be, but I don't reckon it ever is. Personally I think Macca should just feign interest in the ball and aim for body contact so the ball tends to drop in a roughly predictable ring. Mids can then simply work on staying in front. Crude, but it might give us a base.

And who of our disinterested lot would be able capitalise on that tactic?

We lost Lenny and they all lost heart.

Brutally accurate.

I've never missed anything or anyone more in my life more than I miss Lenny Hayes right now.

[desertsaint]

Thinline wrote:

They're only one game away from turning it around though.

which game is the question. this year?

[Moccha]

Who exactly were the opposing ruckmen?

Hawks had no ruckmen, we were up against Roughead for goodness sake.
They lost their ruckman early in the game and then took control. Our mids are rubbish at the moment.

No our ruckman is s***!

[mad saint guy]

The only decent ruckman we've had for the past 10 years is Gardiner but we managed to win a few games over that time without him. If we can make prelims with the likes of Knobel, Rix, Ackland, Kosi, Blake and Clarke in the ruck then we should be able to manage with Ben. He's not winning the taps but neither has any saints ruckman in recent history. It's just that our midfield doesn't want to get the ball. Armo certainly does, but that's about it. Dal has a crack every now and then, Montagna will have a bit of a go but no one attacks the ball anything like how Lenny does. Jones doesn't want it because then he'd have to dispose of it. Polo tried today but he's a GOP at best. Hawthorn had Lewis, Sewell, Mitchell and even Shane bloody Savage beating us to the ball at every centre clearance because they wanted it more.

[gringo]

Jones tagged today and was lost to the centre. Armo was in the middle but with out Joey we were always going to struggle, Dal was easily screened by one of the hawks mids leaving no one we could get the ball out to. Ben wasn't that bad just couldn't find anyone to get it to.

[spert]

No chance of winning big games-or any game if the midfield is losing. Our midfield apart from Hayes, has consisted for quite a while, of receivers- NDS, Montagna, Ray, Peake, McQualter, Gram to name a few. We have vey few hard-ball-get smalls and mids, those we have who do get the hard ball, are Hayes, Dempster, Jones and Armo, but Armo doesn't seem to have that extra gear at the moment- the loss of Hayes has exposed the poor quality of our recruiting. I don't think even if we had a winning ruck, that the current crop of mids and onballers, would do much better -they dont work hard enough- period. I thought RL dropped NDS and Milne a few years ago as they didn't work hard enough on their defensive games when tagged, so maybe it's time for another trip to the VFL.

[Thinline]

Thinline wrote:

They're only one game away from turning it around though.

which game is the question. this year?

2064 Rd 46.

[tweedaletomanning]

No chance of winning big games-or any game if the midfield is losing. Our midfield apart from Hayes, has consisted for quite a while, of receivers- NDS, Montagna, Ray, Peake, McQualter, Gram to name a few. We have vey few hard-ball-get smalls and mids, those we have who do get the hard ball, are Hayes, Dempster, Jones and Armo, but Armo doesn't seem to have that extra gear at the moment- the loss of Hayes has exposed the poor quality of our recruiting. I don't think even if we had a winning ruck, that the current crop of mids and onballers, would do much better -they dont work hard enough- period. I thought RL dropped NDS and Milne a few years ago as they didn't work hard enough on their defensive games when tagged, so maybe it's time for another trip to the VFL.

+1

Luke Ball, anyone? Anyone???

[noob]

Have we won a inside 50 count this year or centre clearance count? We got absolutely smashed in the centre so i partially blame harvey and king for not trying to fix it. felt like the hawks won 20 in a row.

[Junction Oval]

Hawthorn's leaders led, ours went missing.

Lewis, Sewell and Hodge killed us in the centre square. They simply roved better and crunched in first.

In a poor Saints team effort, Jones role on Mitchell wasn't too bad.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

I suspect that part of what we're seeing in the middle right now is the price of not running high-rotations.

In the Ross Lyon model, instead of having a large number of mids, you have a very structured approach to on-ball. i.e. if you're up forward, McQualter and Schneider join the on-ballers, and if you're down back, Baker and Ray join in.

This has delivered significant advantage in recent years - we don't have the depth of A grade mids of a Geelong, but if we always have a Hayes/Dal/Montagna on the ball, it gives your better players a chance to control the game. Our better playes are very good.

However, that comes undone when your top players are down, or when you have a few of them out... when all of a sudden you've got Hayes and Montagna out, and Goddard down on form, you're suddenly looking for answers from guys who just haven't got the match experience.

On Sunday, Hawthorn had 4 players who didn't register a clearance at some point. Gilham (injured in the opening minutes) Gibson (on Roo) Breust (rookie forward) and Birchall (outside defender). Conversely, the Saints had 10 with no clearances, including 5 of our 6 top possession getters (Fisher, Gwilt, Dempster, Reiwoldt and Baker). The Hawks had 8 players with 8+ contensted touches to the Saints 5

As this season continues to progress, part of the preperation for 2012 will hopefully be to find players who can do more in the middle. Hayes is going to bec oming back from a knee, and won't be able to immediately go back to where he was. Much like goalscoring, unless we can spread the clearance load, the Saints are pretty clearly on some thin ice.

While everyone can see players such as Goddard (6 contested touches for
4 clearances) need to lift, whether fair or not, the likes of Armitage (6 CP, 3 CL), Farren Ray, (4 CP, 3 CL), Jason Gram (3 CP, 2CL) need to lift. That Nick Dal Santo was probably our "most effective" mid at 9CP, 5CL speaks volumes - that's a decent game, but should under no circumstances be a lone hand (Hawthorn had Mitchell with 14/6, Sewell with 8/5 AND Hodge with 9/4). The Saints most effective way to win the ball was having Sam Fisher mark the Hawks inside 50s.

By this stage, we all know that things like tackle count, inside 50s etc. are critical to the gameplan and blah-blah-blah. Until our guys are willing to throw themselves in and win the ball, everything is window dressing. The years of accused lack of depth are coming home to roost.

[Animal Enclosure]

Winning hitouts is never a good guide to clearances. You'd think it would/should be, but I don't reckon it ever is. Personally I think Macca should just feign interest in the ball and aim for body contact so the ball tends to drop in a roughly predictable ring. Mids can then simply work on staying in front. Crude, but it might give us a base.

And who of our disinterested lot would be able capitalise on that tactic?

We lost Lenny and they all lost heart.

Spot on Bernie... a sad indictment on numerous players.

[older saint]

MIds were a disgrace yesterday. hawks have hard in mids, sewell, mitchell, hodge, etc.
Not only did they smash us in the clearance _ Don't blame the ruck as Roughhead did not win that many hits , but more important with their spread and run. Our mids yesterday were down hill skiers and it exposed our defence ( as it would have any defence) teriibly. Until the mids get some defensive side to their game we are going to continue to get smashed.

[saintsRrising]

This has delivered significant advantage in recent years - we don't have the depth of A grade mids of a Geelong, but if we always have a Hayes/Dal/Montagna on the ball, it gives your better players a chance to control the game. Our better playes are very good.

.

Problem for us is that the Pies evolved the game by pressing numbers onto the contested ball area. Most teams are now aping this.

This advantages teams with good minds and large numbers of mids.

It equally disadvantages teams like the Saints who had lack of midfielder depth and who had a "stop and hold" gameplan...which was our edge...and like you say we move the battle from the where we were weak to where we where strong.

This year despite our poor form our gameplan has changed...though poor form and low workrate masks this.

However with so many players on the ball if you have more good mids with good footskils it is an advantage.

Our backs also can no longer stp and hold to set-up..as they are pressed immediately.

Plus with teams pressing deep if you get smashed in midfield contested ball then you are abttling to then get the ball back into your forward line.

The last two years our set-up saw us intercept easily forward entiries. This year our defenders are under constent pressure.


Having a good and deep midfield, includinga good rukman, in 2011 is a major advantage. The next time the Pies play the Cats they will have Jolly back.


The Cats who were lookinga bit outdated in 201 had good and deep midfield...and so now Scott has had different defensive set-ups and pressing to it they are up and running again after re-inventing themselves.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

This year despite our poor form our gameplan has changed...though poor form and low workrate masks this.

(sorry to cherrypick, but this is one of my sore points...)

I agree the game plan has changed. Our forward zone is horrible. We seem to have 14 men out wide either side, 2 up the middle, and 2 backing up... we get pierced with long kicks up the middle which turn into coast-to-coast goals multiple times every game.

Conversely, when we were running a 3/4 press, it was like a triangle, with Dawson and Blake/Gwilt hanging back behind centre to be able to charge the 2nd kick.

It seriosuly dumbfounds me that after pioneering the 3/4 press, the Saints can be so poor at the 1/2 press.