Ok a bit of objectivity- Where to from here?

[Bernard Shakey]

Riewoldt is our most important player by a massive amount......he plays well, we win....

Good key fwds will always be more important structurally than mids anyway....and considering nick is elite, makes him the most valuable player in a team in the afl....

With brown, pavlich and buddy

Take any of those 4 out of their side.....it depletes them

Many times.....last year even.....lenny was a best player in a bad loss....

Nick is not playing well in 2011.....niether are we

Many times last year Lenny was the engine that won games while Roo was sitting on his bum after the hammy.

Lenny is not a run of the mill everyday elite mid.

Roo is in our team and we are woeful. Sadly we actually played better without him last night. He needs to play up the ground to get rid of this "where's the blond guy" mentality.

[bigred]

He needs to play up the ground to get rid of this "where's the blond guy" mentality.

I think that has a bit of merit.

[matrix]

agree with a lot too
but

lets what a few more rounds huh
lets see whats happened about round 10

its 'looking' like its not good, especially with the pies looking pretty good again

but lets wait huh
lets just give them a few more against some good opps (carlton, hawks, freo all coming up)...

...then we can cue the rack
lol

[Helio]

Have to agree JB, give it one more big shot next season, see if any of these kids are worth perservering with.
Get rid of the guys who can't kick such as Jones, Dawson ( which is sad because I thought he was really going somewhere but has gone backwards) Dempster Mcqualter.
I would keep Gilbert because he still can offer something once his head is over KD.
We need to be smart with Free Agency and get a decent ruckman as well as more midfielders.
I am looking forward to how Ledger goes tomorrow because I was very impressed with what I saw in the NAB Cup.

I agree. I was stunned to see Jones in the best players. If the club rewards the rubbish he served up in the first half, it will keep getting more of the same from him. Champion data had him down for 8 critical errors. A team high & he gets in the best players! It's so disappointing when you remember the great work he did tagging the best midfielders in 08 & 09.

If we get game time into the young guys, get rid of Jones, Dawson & Kosi and actually trade well for the first time in three years - we might have a chance in 2012.

[Johnny Member]

I disagree.

Baker at one point kicked it back to Gwilt.

Gwilt kicked it back to Baker.

Baker kicked it back to Gwilt.

I don't agree 'that's what Rossy would want me to do' was his thought process, especially the second time.

This was a truly awful moment at a crucial time in the game. The worst thing about it was Walls was right! He said Baker wouldn't kick forward and he didn't.

PS I think it's too early to give up on 2011. Don't live for tomorrow...it might never come!

Anyway, weren't we 2-7 at the start of '97 (when we topped the home and away ladder)?

Didn't North Melbourne lose the first 5 games of 1975 (the year of their first VFL Flag)?

Is it still possible to recover like this in 2011?

Baker and Blake haven't kicked forward since Rosco took over! They've been doing the exact same thing for 4 years now.

Blake in particular, has become a very solid player because of this. He doesn't have to think, and he rarely makes big blunders due to it.

The idea of the strategy is to get the ball into the hands of the 'kicking defenders' such as Gilbert, Gram, Fisher and Gwilt whilst also reducing backline errors from players prone to making them.


Max started to do the same thing when Lyon arrived - and my understanding is that this is why Zac was picked ahead of him. It was because under Lyon's strategy he would have had one too many defenders who weren't allowed to take risks if Max played.
So Zac was being selected ahead of him.


What I see happening now, is not so much that Bakes doesn't kick forward being the problem, it's that we've been found a bit in this regard. Everyone knows Bakes and Blake don't kick forward and they try to get it into the hands of Fisher, Gwilt, Gram, Gilbert etc. - so the opposition shut these guys down.

Recently, Bakes has not changed his game one bit. He's still doing what he's beeing doing for the past 4 years.
What's changed, is that we're not getting the AA form out of Gilbert, and Sam Fisher is playing a KPP which has also reduced his impact as a runner.

[dcstkfc]

i think we can re-load in 2012.
geelongs performances this year has convinced me of this.
so this year lets use it as "player development". get the highest draft picks we can. maybe organise a big trade.

absolutely i would not play bakes and blake and anyone not going to be there in 2012. bakes and blake have both earnt a farewell game later in the year. but thats it.

Geelong won 17 home and away games last year. A tad different to where we are now...

[dcstkfc]

I disagree.

Baker at one point kicked it back to Gwilt.

Gwilt kicked it back to Baker.

Baker kicked it back to Gwilt.

I don't agree 'that's what Rossy would want me to do' was his thought process, especially the second time.

This was a truly awful moment at a crucial time in the game. The worst thing about it was Walls was right! He said Baker wouldn't kick forward and he didn't.

PS I think it's too early to give up on 2011. Don't live for tomorrow...it might never come!

Anyway, weren't we 2-7 at the start of '97 (when we topped the home and away ladder)?

Didn't North Melbourne lose the first 5 games of 1975 (the year of their first VFL Flag)?

Is it still possible to recover like this in 2011?

We were 1-4 in 97. Won our next 4 to recover before storming home to win 9 in a row before Grand Final defeat.

North were 0-4 in 75. Were still 3-6 and 5-7 but ended 14-8 and ultimately premiers.

[joffaboy]

Wrote an identical thread after Essendon game.

Collingwood have got it this year....next year hopefully they are savaged by salary cap and GWS

2011 is a huge preseason for our last tilt at a premiership in 2012....get everyone fit and rested. 15 games into the kids, change the gameplan, elevate rookies...we cannot win it this year, slight chance next year....after that wilderness again

Can someone give me a slight reason why we would be better next year than this year. Logic would be nice.

I'll try.

And remember this is all supposition.

1) Mentally flat. After the three GF's and missing out on a flag it seems the team is mentally flat and not up for the challenge this year. Coupled with the hugedistraction of Kim Duthie and the assault on the club by the lying media, we had a very poor pre season.

2) Seems to have effected Sam Gilbert tremendously and Riewoldt to a lesser extent.

3) The team seems underdone with a very late pre-season. You may say this hasn't effected Collingwood, but they are not at the same development team wise as the Saints and it was Twice in a row GF's for the Saints. The effort to get to the four and then the GF mostly without the marquee player may have drained the players physically.

4) Getting games into younger players - the churn as Malthouse calls it, may rejuvenate the team. Sten and Armo seem to be benefiting from the extended games in the seniors, with Smith, Cripps and Johnson getting a go as well. New faces may put a spark back into the team

5) Lenny Hayes is only one player but combined with the experience for Armo and Cripps and Jack Steven etc and having Dal and Joey and bj still in their prime will add to the midfield.

6) A chance to revisit our gameplan and see why we can break zones in the first half. Seems like we cant only start playing once the 3 interchange rule has opened up the game in the second half (which may contradict my earlier point that we are underdone, as we seem to be running out games).

7) Our core will still be in it prime and coupled with new players, an extended pre season (one scandal free would be nice) Lenny back, a newer game plan, and the demons of the GF losses more than a season behind them, I think we have a realistic chance in 2012.

Hope that seems sensible.

[saintsRrising]

Players like Baker are gone....


I hate to quote Walls...but he only ever goes backwards.

You need your defenders to generate drive...and not to always just concede and go neautral. It just allows the opposition these days to press.

I believe that he's been directed to do that over the past few years.

Blake ditto.


.

1/ No the gameplan was to do that if options forward were covered.

Trouble is now that Baker just always go back/sideways.

Watch him win the ball..his first action is to look backwards...rather than to look forward for opportunity.


2/ Even if that was the gamplan the last 2 years...it is not the gameplan in 2011.


The WHOLE team needs to be quicker....

Not just to release the ball...but to run and present options. For if players are not presentiong options in the RIGHT places then it is very hard to go forward against pressing opposition.



Evolve or die. Does Bakes have the skill-set to not become a dinasaur? I think not.

For football 2012...you have to have a number of attacking backman.

The stop and set-up era has been outmoded by the forward press. You stop and set up...and you get buried.

Players either need the pace to take players on...or the footskills to precisely deliver it upfield.

Where does Baker fit in? Unfortunately I think he no longer does.

[Johnny Member]

Watch him win the ball..his first action is to look backwards...rather than to look forward for opportunity.

It has been for 4 years now. He's not the only one either.

If they win the ball, the first thing they do is look to give it off by hand. If they can't they look sideways to kick to a 'kicking defender'. If there's not one sideways, they go backwards.

The same guys have been doing it since Rosco arrived, every single week.


You could be right about it not being the directive in 2011 - I certainly believe that to be the case for Blake.
The issue there is, that guys who've been loved and admired by the coaches for their ability to ignore instinct and do what they've been told to do every time, can take a while to change.

That play-on incident that cost us the Geelong game, to me appeared to be a classic case of a guy who's previous instruction has been to stop, prop and give the ball off to a kicker no matter what - now having the directive to play on more and take a risk now and then.
And clearly, as we saw it confused the hell out of him!

[St Chris]

To get an idea of how the football department is now seeing our chances in 2011, we need to look at where we should be right now.

When the fixture came out, we would have looked at the first 6 weeks and expected at least 3-2, probably 4-1, and very possibly 5-0.

The next 2 months would have looked tough, and expected to win about 4-3 or 3-4, putting us between 6th and 8th on the ladder coming into our second bye.

In reality, we're could very well be going into Round 14 with only 2, or even one, win and in the bottom 4. Even if we win the next 10 straight, we will only have 12 and a half wins, which would just be enough to scrape into the eight.

Gilbo needs some time to figure out how important playing for this football club is to him. Best way to do that is to take it away from him.

Smith, Steven, Lynch, gotta play these guys who have had 3-4 years in the system.

Cripps, Johnson, Archer, Siposs, Winmar, these guys need 5 - 10 games each, just to get a taste to get a kick along in the 2012 pre-season.

And most of all, more important than who plays and where, is MOVE THE BALL FORWARD, QUICKLY!!!!!

[plugger66]

To get an idea of how the football department is now seeing our chances in 2011, we need to look at where we should be right now.

When the fixture came out, we would have looked at the first 6 weeks and expected at least 3-2, probably 4-1, and very possibly 5-0.

The next 2 months would have looked tough, and expected to win about 4-3 or 3-4, putting us between 6th and 8th on the ladder coming into our second bye.

In reality, we're could very well be going into Round 14 with only 2, or even one, win and in the bottom 4. Even if we win the next 10 straight, we will only have 12 and a half wins, which would just be enough to scrape into the eight.

Gilbo needs some time to figure out how important playing for this football club is to him. Best way to do that is to take it away from him.

Smith, Steven, Lynch, gotta play these guys who have had 3-4 years in the system.

Cripps, Johnson, Archer, Siposs, Winmar, these guys need 5 - 10 games each, just to get a taste to get a kick along in the 2012 pre-season.

And most of all, more important than who plays and where, is MOVE THE BALL FORWARD, QUICKLY!!!!!

We can play the guys mentioned but unless our form turns around very soon it will not matter what guys get experience because the club due to the age of our stars and second tier players will be in decline. People need to realise that if we have a poor year this year it will definately be the end of our golden era, with no flags to show, and the pain will be for 5-7 years IMO so we need to stick fat.

[SainterK]

I disagree.

Baker at one point kicked it back to Gwilt.

Gwilt kicked it back to Baker.

Baker kicked it back to Gwilt.

I don't agree 'that's what Rossy would want me to do' was his thought process, especially the second time.

This was a truly awful moment at a crucial time in the game. The worst thing about it was Walls was right! He said Baker wouldn't kick forward and he didn't.

PS I think it's too early to give up on 2011. Don't live for tomorrow...it might never come!

Anyway, weren't we 2-7 at the start of '97 (when we topped the home and away ladder)?

Didn't North Melbourne lose the first 5 games of 1975 (the year of their first VFL Flag)?

Is it still possible to recover like this in 2011?

Baker and Blake haven't kicked forward since Rosco took over! They've been doing the exact same thing for 4 years now.

Blake in particular, has become a very solid player because of this. He doesn't have to think, and he rarely makes big blunders due to it.

The idea of the strategy is to get the ball into the hands of the 'kicking defenders' such as Gilbert, Gram, Fisher and Gwilt whilst also reducing backline errors from players prone to making them.


Max started to do the same thing when Lyon arrived - and my understanding is that this is why Zac was picked ahead of him. It was because under Lyon's strategy he would have had one too many defenders who weren't allowed to take risks if Max played.
So Zac was being selected ahead of him.


What I see happening now, is not so much that Bakes doesn't kick forward being the problem, it's that we've been found a bit in this regard. Everyone knows Bakes and Blake don't kick forward and they try to get it into the hands of Fisher, Gwilt, Gram, Gilbert etc. - so the opposition shut these guys down.

Recently, Bakes has not changed his game one bit. He's still doing what he's beeing doing for the past 4 years.
What's changed, is that we're not getting the AA form out of Gilbert, and Sam Fisher is playing a KPP which has also reduced his impact as a runner.

Disagree.

Couldn't get more of a 'role player' than Sean Dempster, if anyone is going to play how the coach wants him to, it's Sean.

In 2010 he played the same amount of games as Baker, Baker played up until the Geelong game and suspension, Sean then played his 'role' during his absence up until the GF where they both played.

So both about 15 games each.

One had 18 inside 50's, the other 6.

Same role, same coach, and I'm confident to say the same instructions.

Who do you think had the lesser amount?

[Con Gorozidis]

i think we can re-load in 2012.
geelongs performances this year has convinced me of this.
so this year lets use it as "player development". get the highest draft picks we can. maybe organise a big trade.

absolutely i would not play bakes and blake and anyone not going to be there in 2012. bakes and blake have both earnt a farewell game later in the year. but thats it.

Geelong won 17 home and away games last year. A tad different to where we are now...

I just mean geelong are showing we arent too old to go again. I believe our current malaise is 80% mental. 10% personnel deficiencies. 10% game plan/coaching deficiencies.

[plugger66]

i think we can re-load in 2012.
geelongs performances this year has convinced me of this.
so this year lets use it as "player development". get the highest draft picks we can. maybe organise a big trade.

absolutely i would not play bakes and blake and anyone not going to be there in 2012. bakes and blake have both earnt a farewell game later in the year. but thats it.

Geelong won 17 home and away games last year. A tad different to where we are now...

I just mean geelong are showing we arent too old to go again. I believe our current malaise is 80% mental. 10% personnel deficiencies. 10% game plan/coaching deficiencies.

And why would those players suddenly click mentally next year if they cant this year? Wouldnt they even be more mentally scared if we say win only 10 games this year which is highly possible.

[saintspremiers]

Just prior to GT being sacked he had no answer to the flood.

Players back then weren't prepared or weren't coached to adapt to the methods other teams placed on us to counter our uber attack of 04 and 05.

A similar thing has happend now with the press.

Ross of course knows all this and in all likelihood is planning a new strategy.

But can he evoke it during the season?

I doubt it.

He flirted with the play on at all costs handball happy in the preseason but that's gone now.

Looks like its the work of the next preseason with new blood via trade and draft to pull it off.

Maybe we can reload in 2012 and have a crack if he pulls out another rabbit.

[Johnny Member]

Disagree.

Couldn't get more of a 'role player' than Sean Dempster, if anyone is going to play how the coach wants him to, it's Sean.

In 2010 he played the same amount of games as Baker, Baker played up until the Geelong game and suspension, Sean then played his 'role' during his absence up until the GF where they both played.

So both about 15 games each.

One had 18 inside 50's, the other 6.

Same role, same coach, and I'm confident to say the same instructions.

Who do you think had the lesser amount?

I don't think they would have had the same roles.

Or they may have the same 'role', but as individuals would have had different restrictions set on them.

Similar to the Max and Zac scenario. Both played a full back 'role', whereas one wasn't allowed to take risks by foot, the other was actually encouraged to use the ball.


To be honest, I don't see at too much different to the midfield inside and outside players.

Luke Ball for example, cannot play as an outside midfielder. Not could a Daniel Cross for example.

But for them to be effective in a team, they need the outside mids around them.

So when the inside mids are doing their job, and the outside mids are too - the midfield works.

But if the outside mids aren't pulling their weight, are out of form or aren't on the ground at all - the whole thing falls apart and suddenly the deficiencies of the inside mid really stand out.


Obviously a really good midfielder does both - and a really good defender does both.
But we've managed to build an exceptional backline with really only 1 or 2 really good midfielders due to Rosco's strategy.

You're able to utilise a players' strengths, and at the same time hide his deficiencies (in our case the decision making and footskills of some players).

[Con Gorozidis]

i think we can re-load in 2012.
geelongs performances this year has convinced me of this.
so this year lets use it as "player development". get the highest draft picks we can. maybe organise a big trade.

absolutely i would not play bakes and blake and anyone not going to be there in 2012. bakes and blake have both earnt a farewell game later in the year. but thats it.

Geelong won 17 home and away games last year. A tad different to where we are now...

I just mean geelong are showing we arent too old to go again. I believe our current malaise is 80% mental. 10% personnel deficiencies. 10% game plan/coaching deficiencies.

And why would those players suddenly click mentally next year if they cant this year? Wouldnt they even be more mentally scared if we say win only 10 games this year which is highly possible.

i believe they can refresh and start to believe in a new dawn next year.
remember the scandal crap and a court case looming . so i genuinely believe they can clear those mental scars and they will heal and reboot for another dawn. this season just came around too fast with to much crap to deal with.