Ok a bit of objectivity- Where to from here?

[Dr Spaceman]

I am going to add Baker to the cant kick list. He looks to kick it sideways or backwards all the time, it is embarrassing. I am afraid his day is well and truly gone.

Some people will be up in arms about that suggestion, mainly because he has been a great servant of the club and because he's such a likeable bloke.

And really, no one tries harder than the little number 10.

But his time is definitely up and it's his inability to create that is his main problem.

The only thing saving him at the moment is RL's loyalty to a player who gives 100% and our lack of an obvious replacement to take the opposition small forwards.

[degruch]

I am going to add Baker to the cant kick list. He looks to kick it sideways or backwards all the time, it is embarrassing. I am afraid his day is well and truly gone.

Some people will be up in arms about that suggestion, mainly because he has been a great servant of the club and because he's such a likeable bloke.

And really, no one tries harder than the little number 10.

But his time is definitely up and it's his inability to create that is his main problem.

The only thing saving him at the moment is RL's loyalty to a player who gives 100% and our lack of an obvious replacement to take the opposition small forwards.

Biggest problem I see, is that the most likely candidate to replace him (Geary) is injured.

[saintsRrising]

Still too early to write off the season.

We are battling but we have only been thumped once. We are still a competitive unit, and if we are in finals contention we need to keep fighting. 1-3-1 is better than where we were 5 rounds in to 97. I don't think it will change, but wholesale change is not yet worth it given re-building is a huge process.

Well one has to be an optimist to be a long-term Saints fan...however that post is defintely out of kilter wit the season so far.


However it is not wholesale change....but severe change yes.

It is simply time to prune all those players that are not part of our future...and to get games into the players that may be. Naturally many will stay...as they are part of the "new" team.


But lets start sifting....lets get a look at players at the higher level.

We may click and recover the year...or take steps back....but either way it will make our future better.

[3rd generation saint]

Yes i do concur, two of our best servants should be looking at retiring.
Bakes and Blake, they still do good things, but sadly time has caught up with them and it is time for them to step aside to let the next generation through.
Actually think Bakes might make a good coach, hard tough nuts have a habit of doing that.

[BigMart]

I reckon with a courageous decision now.....we can win it in 2013.....

Before gc starts dominating.....


But it will be a bit like 2002.......

2012 like 2003.....

And then we put ouselves back in the running

[mad saint guy]

Cut the dead wood. Give the kids preference over GOPs and ALWAYS reward good form in the VFL. Also make sure that they're not put under too much pressure and don't overwork them physically (Mac will be a wreck if he has to keep tucking solo).

Walsh is ready and could easily match Dawson's form so far this year, though I'd like to see him developed as a forward. Siposs isn't too far off but isn't ready for a regular spot, give him a taste to get ready for 2012. Cripps is too small, the occasional game is fine but he's not an AFL player right now. Give the likes of Johnson and Archer more opportunities to prove themselves and continue to give Smith game time. Give Simpkin a go ahead of Dempster.

The rest of this season is preparation for 2012. Find a ruckman in the off season, throw big bucks at genuinely good players who become available and consider trading Gilbert and Gram (Jones, Clarke and Kosi as well if possible).

Right now our kids are struggling to make an impact in a dour, defensive, overcomplicated game style with a core who has lost focus and motivation. Give them experience this year, get the core back on track and see if Lenny, Goddard and Roo can lead them to a top four finish next year.

[SainterK]

Dawson will get a week IMO.

Gives opportunity to Lynch perhaps?

[dcstkfc]

Dawson will get a week IMO.

Gives opportunity to Lynch perhaps?

Walsh or Simpkin are probably the most direct replacements. Or bring Stanley/Archer/Kosi in and move Blake back.

[kalsaint]

Seems like we cant win it this year.

After 5 rounds we look very ordinary.

Do we cue it in the rack for 2011 and continue to play smith, cripps, steven, etc and keep injecting the youth, or do we continue the quest for the flag this season?

My view is that we should reload for 2012. Players like Steven and Armo are showing that they are benefitting from an extended run.

We need to persist with Smith and Cripps who did a job tonight, and players like Winmar and Sipposs should get a few games in the seniors to see what they are capable of.

Tommy Walsh need to be elevated and given a run.

This, of course means more games like tonight, a poor loss, but at least we will be building towards 2012.

We had a s.hit preseason after three GF's. We had the terrible nude photo distraction and we lost lenny for the year.

We need to finish up early and reload with a full preseason, Lenny back, and players like Roo and Goddard and a couple of others still in their prime.

Yup - AFAIAC it is time to pull the plug, have a dissapointing 2011 and see if we can regain the hunger next season.

Early to write them off in April but can anyone really see us threatening this season?

I'm not in favour of jsut droppong the ball and reloading for a new year. This doesnt fix the heads of players not performing.

My thoughts"
First, pick the form and fit players and those who show the courage, discipline and endeavour to make the team work.
Secondly ensure reasonable team balance. Dont have three talls one week and one the next under immense pressure.
Thirdly recruit another ruckman to make clearances a real possibility and provide that uncertainty when going forward.

[sRaf]

I also disagree with pulling the plug. You can't go from a drawn GF to a horrid season just like that. It's obviously a trust issue and lack of confidence. I think it's time to drop some big names just to get everyone back on the ball and focused. They need to feel like they have to earn their spot. Funny that Dal Santo is currently our best midfielder and the Milne is our leading goal kicker. I'm sure you all remember is was these two who dropped for not giving enough a couple of years back.

I'll keep it short.

Forward line restructure. Teams have figured out how to stop us, yet we still always search for Roo despite him always being outnumbered. We need to have two other marking options down there that will be able to attract attention away from Roo. Bring Stanley in, bring Gamble in. Develop them to be dangerous targets.

We have to have the most cluttered forward line in the AFL. Can't think of another team that has so many in there. We need to open it up, like it was at stages against the Crows game.

Persist in developing the young players by giving them games in the AFL. Smith, Cripps, Steven and Armitage looked good out there today. Sure, a couple of them are raw, but they'll only get better as long as we continue to give them the experience at the top level.

[dcstkfc]

Still too early to write off the season.

We are battling but we have only been thumped once. We are still a competitive unit, and if we are in finals contention we need to keep fighting. 1-3-1 is better than where we were 5 rounds in to 97. I don't think it will change, but wholesale change is not yet worth it given re-building is a huge process.

Well one has to be an optimist to be a long-term Saints fan...however that post is defintely out of kilter wit the season so far.


However it is not wholesale change....but severe change yes.

It is simply time to prune all those players that are not part of our future...and to get games into the players that may be. Naturally many will stay...as they are part of the "new" team.


But lets start sifting....lets get a look at players at the higher level.

We may click and recover the year...or take steps back....but either way it will make our future better.

Not necessarily. 2011 could get a whole lot worse by playing the kids. Don't be fooled. Our worst players tonight included Smith, Cripps, Johnson and McEvoy.

Not saying that these guys won't get better or that getting games into them will help us long term. But if we are an 80/1 of winning the flag with Dempster, Blake, Baker and McQualter, we are 200/1 if we replace them with Cripps, Simpkin, Stanley and Winmar just to name four.

[matrix]

how much you reckon we miss lenny?

how much did his going down f*** with other heads ya reckon??

i think its enough to contribute to what we are witnessing

[Bernard Shakey]

how much you reckon we miss lenny?

how much did his going down f*** with other heads ya reckon??

i think its enough to contribute to what we are witnessing

Most important player in our lineup from a structural and emotional point of view.

[matrix]

where to from here?

trade roo

[Con Gorozidis]

i think we can re-load in 2012.
geelongs performances this year has convinced me of this.
so this year lets use it as "player development". get the highest draft picks we can. maybe organise a big trade.

absolutely i would not play bakes and blake and anyone not going to be there in 2012. bakes and blake have both earnt a farewell game later in the year. but thats it.

[bigred]

No doubt in my mind that losing Lenny absolutely rooted whatever mental strength the senior guys had left.

Most important player on our list by an absolute country mile.

Use this year to try some things. Dont just play the kids to play the kids. Try out some different stuff.
I would definitely play guys ahead of Baker, Dempster, Blake and even Gilbert.

Gilbert is gone I reckon. GWS here he comes. Well, they can have his disposal and choke on it.

This is a terrible time to bottom out though.....terrible time. I thought we were going to stay around the top four for another two years and miss most of the concessions....but it looks like we will fall right at the beginning of it.

[saintsRrising]

Still too early to write off the season.

We are battling but we have only been thumped once. We are still a competitive unit, and if we are in finals contention we need to keep fighting. 1-3-1 is better than where we were 5 rounds in to 97. I don't think it will change, but wholesale change is not yet worth it given re-building is a huge process.

Well one has to be an optimist to be a long-term Saints fan...however that post is defintely out of kilter wit the season so far.


However it is not wholesale change....but severe change yes.

It is simply time to prune all those players that are not part of our future...and to get games into the players that may be. Naturally many will stay...as they are part of the "new" team.


But lets start sifting....lets get a look at players at the higher level.

We may click and recover the year...or take steps back....but either way it will make our future better.

Not necessarily. 2011 could get a whole lot worse by playing the kids. Don't be fooled. Our worst players tonight included Smith, Cripps, Johnson and McEvoy.

.

I am not fooled...and I think perhaps you missed my "or take steps back"...which of course is exactly what might happen as we try out, and get experience into our younger players.

However there is upside in that our "better" players might click back into form....and indeed having a group of youthful players yet to make their mark may lift them (or not!!).


I am content with what was done in the last two years...but this year is now a time to sift for future players.

And this sifting would already seem to be well underway with a number of players having been given senior games.

Post-Crows game I think this will accelerate.

However as I posted the bulk of the team will most likely stay....and for example Ray will come back in.

If it was me .....I would seriously consider each senior player and ask the question...will they be part of 2012-14...and if not then it is time tat their place be used to sift for new talent.

[gringo]

We wont rack the cue, because while we are hanging even in touch with the eight we shouldn't give in. Play a mix of kids every game, but you never know where the rest of the comp will go. You would hate to concede at round 6 and later in the season find that Collingwood lost Pendles and Swan and Hawks had a major drug problem leading to having a sit out of 2011. Chris Judd is arrested for showing where Fev got his discipline issues from and we walked away early.

[BigMart]

Riewoldt is our most important player by a massive amount......he plays well, we win....

Good key fwds will always be more important structurally than mids anyway....and considering nick is elite, makes him the most valuable player in a team in the afl....

With brown, pavlich and buddy

Take any of those 4 out of their side.....it depletes them

Many times.....last year even.....lenny was a best player in a bad loss....

Nick is not playing well in 2011.....niether are we

[fugazi]

Wrote an identical thread after Essendon game.

Collingwood have got it this year....next year hopefully they are savaged by salary cap and GWS

2011 is a huge preseason for our last tilt at a premiership in 2012....get everyone fit and rested. 15 games into the kids, change the gameplan, elevate rookies...we cannot win it this year, slight chance next year....after that wilderness again

[plugger66]

Wrote an identical thread after Essendon game.

Collingwood have got it this year....next year hopefully they are savaged by salary cap and GWS

2011 is a huge preseason for our last tilt at a premiership in 2012....get everyone fit and rested. 15 games into the kids, change the gameplan, elevate rookies...we cannot win it this year, slight chance next year....after that wilderness again

Can someone give me a slight reason why we would be better next year than this year. Logic would be nice.

[Solar]

agree with lots on here.

Need to work ou the structure for the rest of the year. Who is going to be the backbone of this side in the next 3 years?

Backline. Where is dawson at? Thought his round 1 game was the best in a long time but got found out in the past 3 weeks. Needs to be able to shut down his player first and foremost. Perhaps a spell might be the best thing for him.

Gwilt and Chips should stay down there. Would like to see us use chipper as a traditional centre half back. Play close to his man but focus on contested marks. Focus is not on running the ball, leave that to others.

If these two can focus on shut down roles we can develop walsh and or simpkin to develop a future back six. Who is our small defender going to be. Smith? Eddy? I want one shut down player to replace baker who will retire.

Then there will be two rebounding backline players. Is gilbo part of our future? Where is raph at, looks like raph might have hit what his pscyhology will allow. So lynch is one option as a running back. Can we afford to use ray as the other?

Develop this group into a squad. They should be able to generate their own run, win their own contests. This is not about winning a flag, it's about developing a better side.

Blake and baker to retire.

The midfield. We want 9 geniune midfielders. They should be midfielders first, forwards/backs second. Lenny, dal, joey and BJ need to lift themselves. Tackles and contested balls MUST be the starting point. I want ray and armo to take the next step and become full time midfielders. No more flankers! Gram needs to up his workrate. Schnieder needs to become a midfielder on going. We need to push games into ledger, cripps, winmar. Focus on developing polo into a AFL player. Focus on winning the clearances and having numbers at the contests. Out number them.

Same with the backline we need to work out the future of our forward line. We need to focus on 5 geniune forwards. Roo and milne are our only effective forwards right now. Where do we go?

[Johnny Member]

Players like Baker are gone....


I hate to quote Walls...but he only ever goes backwards.

You need your defenders to generate drive...and not to always just concede and go neautral. It just allows the opposition these days to press.

I believe that he's been directed to do that over the past few years.

Blake ditto.


Their jobs have been to negate opponents and cause stoppages. If they happen to get the pill, then they do their best to get it in the hands of the kicking defenders - Gram, Gilbert, Fisher & Gwilt.

It worked really well as it pretty much removed the 'clanger kick' and turnover from these guys' games, and we were getting such fantastic input from the kicking defenders that we barely even noticed it happening.


But clearly, as you say, right now it stands out like dog's balls. With Gilbert AWOL, and Gram not in fantastic form, and with Fisher and Gwilt playing KPs, we've lost that run and attack from defense completely.

So we do need blokes who stop and play their defensive role, but also use the nut when required.

That moment in the last quarter when Bakes got it, and stopped and went backwards to Gwilt, pretty much cost us the game.
I believe the coach wouldn't be dirty with him because he'd be doing what he's been told to do, but it completely killed our momentum.


The other puzzling/frustrating thing is, that Bakes is actually a decent kick.

[SainterK]

I disagree.

Baker at one point kicked it back to Gwilt.

Gwilt kicked it back to Baker.

Baker kicked it back to Gwilt.

I don't agree 'that's what Rossy would want me to do' was his thought process, especially the second time.

[I Love Peter Kiel]

I disagree.

Baker at one point kicked it back to Gwilt.

Gwilt kicked it back to Baker.

Baker kicked it back to Gwilt.

I don't agree 'that's what Rossy would want me to do' was his thought process, especially the second time.

This was a truly awful moment at a crucial time in the game. The worst thing about it was Walls was right! He said Baker wouldn't kick forward and he didn't.

PS I think it's too early to give up on 2011. Don't live for tomorrow...it might never come!

Anyway, weren't we 2-7 at the start of '97 (when we topped the home and away ladder)?

Didn't North Melbourne lose the first 5 games of 1975 (the year of their first VFL Flag)?

Is it still possible to recover like this in 2011?