Ross Lyon overrated or underrated?

[SENsei]

Is Ross Lyon overrated as a coach?

I see our glass as being half empty and our team on the verge of requiring a full blown rebuild. It seems everyone else recognised this the summer but not Ross. Our game plan hasn't really changed. Our personnel hasn't really changed. We are relying on the same handful of stars and the same GOP cattle to get us across the line.

Unfortunately, other clubs have passed us by. How can Geelong have reinvented themselves so quickly? Does Ross have it in him to change our fortunes so quickly?

Surely the AFL's tactical genius should be able to do this, should he not?

The next month will certainly tell an interesting tale.

[Cairnsman]

Does Ross have it in him to change our fortunes so quickly?

The answer is yes, however I wonder if the tragic personal issues that struck his family in 2010 have occupied his mind more than AFL and if they have who would blame him.

[Beno88]

Why would Ross aim to change the game plan over the summer? It's got us within a breath of two premierships.

Ross's game plan is excellent, the players execution of it in 2011 has been below par to this point.

[older saint]

Plagarism is the greatest complement - Every coachhas copied what RL did in 2009 last year and this season so far. Look at Wc and ordinary list playing well with a great press.

the question is what is the next thing up his sleeve in tactical development.

[Cairnsman]

Plagarism is the greatest complement - Every coachhas copied what RL did in 2009 last year and this season so far. Look at Wc and ordinary list playing well with a great press.

the question is what is the next thing up his sleeve in tactical development.

That's what I can't wait for. I've got this feeling that it's going to have something to do with more deffensive pressure, more effort, more enthusiasm, more attack on the ball and contested possesion.

[BakersChest]

Roscoe took us to back to back Grand Finals where we could have easily won both if the ball bounce was different.

I think he is currently very underrated - sure he is very defensive minded but history shows that the team with the best defense generally wins the chocolates at the end of the season.

Other clubs have not passed us, we are just out of form which we will eventually find again. I think we still have one of the top 4 lists in the comp.

Write Roscoe off at your own peril.

[SENsei]

Why would Ross aim to change the game plan over the summer? It's got us within a breath of two premierships.

To stay ahead of the rabid pack might be a good reason. A pack that currently looks like overtaking us.

[SainterK]

It's honestly as simple as this.

If the players don't tackle, especially in our half of the ground, the gameplan could be premiership worthy and it wouldn't matter.

No effort, no win.

It's really not complicated.

[Junction Oval]

Ross has done a great job since he has been at the Saints - the team performance proves it. He is the best coach we have had for a long, long time, and we have had many coaching "failures".

He is clearly a good tactician, but perhaps a little conservative and needs to re-adjust. Having been through troubled times in the off-season, he would know how each and every player thinks. That's not learned overnight. Importantly, he seems to have the full support of the team. However, only those on the inside really know the status of things.

Who would be better? How would we know? The assistant coaches have been turned over, so there should be new ideas being discussed. We need head-coaching stability. Let's judge at the end of the year. Who knows, he may just get a little bit of praise

Clearly, the competition has closed up in terms of competitiveness, making coaching much more complex and difficult. Getting any wins today is not so easy.

[stinger]

Is Ross Lyon overrated as a coach?

I see our glass as being half empty and our team on the verge of requiring a full blown rebuild. It seems everyone else recognised this the summer but not Ross. Our game plan hasn't really changed. Our personnel hasn't really changed. We are relying on the same handful of stars and the same GOP cattle to get us across the line.

Unfortunately, other clubs have passed us by. How can Geelong have reinvented themselves so quickly? Does Ross have it in him to change our fortunes so quickly?

Surely the AFL's tactical genius should be able to do this, should he not?

The next month will certainly tell an interesting tale.

although it pains me to say so...definately over rated which has become even more obvious this year...maybe it was sos and the other assistants doing the real work.


...on reflection , i will give him a few weeks....maybe he can change my mind....

[ThePunter]

The Geelong comparison is problematic if you believe that Mark Thompson was actually holding them back. You could argue they should have won four flags with that collection of talent.

[Richter]

Is Ross Lyon overrated as a coach?

I see our glass as being half empty and our team on the verge of requiring a full blown rebuild. It seems everyone else recognised this the summer but not Ross. Our game plan hasn't really changed. Our personnel hasn't really changed. We are relying on the same handful of stars and the same GOP cattle to get us across the line.

Unfortunately, other clubs have passed us by. How can Geelong have reinvented themselves so quickly? Does Ross have it in him to change our fortunes so quickly?

Surely the AFL's tactical genius should be able to do this, should he not?

The next month will certainly tell an interesting tale.

No. In 2009 he created a wonderful team. The game plan for the GF was excellent, but let down by woeful kicking by the smalls in the first half.

In 2010, he pumped the boys up again to reach a GF - the coaching team's intervention at half time with the moving of Gilbert up forward provided the catalyst for the team to get back in to that game. One bounce away from premiers and RL being lauded as a coaching messiah.

Are we on the verge of needing a full rebuild? Though I am critical of the slowness of the realisation that some new blood is required for this year, it is certainly still in question that a "full rebuild" is required.

That, to me, implies the need to create a new core group. I think our core still has at least 2 more years to go until "full rebuild" territory is reached.

I am more and more buying in to the theory that the poor start to this season is down to a double GF hangover. I think though that RL is having a bit each way - he's blooded some new young players, and dropped some players (Gamble, Raph, Peake), but also retained faith in some (Baker) and given another crack to some (Blake, Mini). I think he's got that balance aout right. The proof of the pudding, as always, will be in the eating....

[Johnny Member]

It depends who's rating him, and high or low they're rating him!

I believe a coach's job is to develop a style of play that he believes will win the flag, and time the playing list to peak at around the same time they master his style of play.

ie. there's no point having the best game plan in the world but try to rely on kids to carry it out each week, and there's no point having the best players in the world if there is no game plan or a bad one.

In addition to that, and probably most importantly, he needs to somehow get the players to fiercely give 100% at training and every weekend.



Based on that criteria he's done very, very well. You just can't argue with the results.

People could argue lots of things about underachieving with the talent he inherited - but that's all speculation. People will form opinions and express them, but as I said it's all just speculation without any hard facts.

The only hard facts we have, is that we played in successive Grand Finals and very nearly won both of them.


So for mine, he's a really good coach.



But.....

The second part of the question refers to the future. At this stage, it doesn't look good and could well be that we find oursleves in the middle of the above scenario, where we have a good game plan but not the players to carry it out.....
......Or we might be in the scenario where we have great players but the game plan doesn't cut it....
.....Or we don't have the desire anymore and aren't prepared or able to give 100% every week.

Which one is it?

Either way, the coach needs to sort it out.

I don't believe coaches are born great coaches, and die great coaches. I believe they have their highs and lows. Some reach highs, and go down hill after that and finish up poor coaches.

So to summarise my opinion, Lyon is a very good coach. But there's no guarantee that by this time next year he still be.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

IMO, talk of "the pack" passing teams by wholesale is a myth.

St Kilda as running around right now would get hammered by the '09 and soundly beaten by the 2010 model. They're simply not playing the same quality of footy. They haven't been passed by the pack, they're just not as good.

Similarly, the idea a head coach can enact a swift turnaround is outdated. You can yell, you can drop a couple of guys ala 2008, but at the end of it all, much as footy may not be as entirely simple as it once was, it's certainly simple enough that if your players don't execute, you're screwed.

IMO, there are significant differences in the structures and tactics... but until the senior players start executing to their demonstrated capability, Lyon's in the boat with the also-rans whether we're playing a style for 2011, 2009, or 1896.

I think Lyon deserves his reputation. I wonder how his new assistants are going.

[Johnny Member]

Similarly, the idea a head coach can enact a swift turnaround is outdated. You can yell, you can drop a couple of guys ala 2008, but at the end of it all, much as footy may not be as entirely simple as it once was, it's certainly simple enough that if your players don't execute, you're screwed.

But I think that's the difference between a great assistant coach, and a great head coach.

Assistant's can come up with great theory and ideals on paper, but the main man's actual job is to ensure it happens in practice.


If a leader can't get his team to follow him, then he isn't doing his job. If he can't inspire his men to give 100% then he isn't a good leader.

Leadership is the cornerstone of a good coach.

[SainterK]

This thread is far too early, as is writing off the side just yet.

Every year we that we have challenged, we have had a form slump.

Nothing new or unique about it.

Hopefully the only thing different this year is the timing, and it will simply be a case of the guys fighting their way out of it again.

Ross will remind them they can and have before.

[Thinline]

This thread is far too early, as is writing off the side just yet.

Every year we that we have challenged, we have had a form slump.

Nothing new or unique about it.

Hopefully the only thing different this year is the timing, and it will simply be a case of the guys fighting their way out of it again.

Ross will remind them they can and have before.

Finals aside, this week, IMO, is the most important game we've had in years.

Given what follows, it is not only the mustest of must wins, but it needs to be a win of the kind that reverberates.

Momentum simply has to start at 7 or so on Saturday night.

We may have just missed out against the Cats and shot ourselves in the foot by failing to scramble an extra point against Richmond, but fact is that because of those blemishes we now need both form AND premiership points.

Our performance will speak the story of the rest of season I reckon.

[Johnny Member]

This thread is far too early, as is writing off the side just yet.

Every year we that we have challenged, we have had a form slump.

Nothing new or unique about it.

Hopefully the only thing different this year is the timing, and it will simply be a case of the guys fighting their way out of it again.

Ross will remind them they can and have before.

I tend to agree.

It seems to be based on the presumption that we're stuffed, and therefore is the coach overrated.

I reckon we should wait until it's confirmed that we're stuffed first.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Similarly, the idea a head coach can enact a swift turnaround is outdated. You can yell, you can drop a couple of guys ala 2008, but at the end of it all, much as footy may not be as entirely simple as it once was, it's certainly simple enough that if your players don't execute, you're screwed.

But I think that's the difference between a great assistant coach, and a great head coach.

Assistant's can come up with great theory and ideals on paper, but the main man's actual job is to ensure it happens in practice.


If a leader can't get his team to follow him, then he isn't doing his job. If he can't inspire his men to give 100% then he isn't a good leader.

Leadership is the cornerstone of a good coach.

My impression of the AFL is that it's actually the other way around: Head coach comes up with the overall strategy, then delegates to assistants to implement.

I could be wrong (never worked in the environment myself) I recall interviews with Clarkson in his first few years at Hawthorn (when they were getting killed) and him talking about the difference between having been at Port where when things needed to be done you were out personally flogging the players, and being head coach, where you reviewed the plans with the assistants, and then stood back. I recall reverse kinds of interviews with Matty Rendell during the GT years, where it was his job to get the players to play a certain way, strategy was talked about in coaches meetings, and taught by assistants.

In modern footy, the Head Coach is much more senior management, and much less rah rah leadership.

[SENsei]

This thread is far too early, as is writing off the side just yet.

Every year we that we have challenged, we have had a form slump.

Nothing new or unique about it.

Hopefully the only thing different this year is the timing, and it will simply be a case of the guys fighting their way out of it again.

Ross will remind them they can and have before.

I tend to agree.

It seems to be based on the presumption that we're stuffed, and therefore is the coach overrated.

I reckon we should wait until it's confirmed that we're stuffed first.

It might be a premature adjudication on my behalf.

But it's only my opinion. IMO we are close to being stuffed unless something changes pretty quickly. If it is simply a matter of our better players playing better, then they better get cracking.

If they are no longer up to it, then the coach needs to address this and modify his gameplan to suit.

If he continues with the 2010 gameplan which the current crop of players cannot execute, is he still a good coach?

[Johnny Member]

This thread is far too early, as is writing off the side just yet.

Every year we that we have challenged, we have had a form slump.

Nothing new or unique about it.

Hopefully the only thing different this year is the timing, and it will simply be a case of the guys fighting their way out of it again.

Ross will remind them they can and have before.

I tend to agree.

It seems to be based on the presumption that we're stuffed, and therefore is the coach overrated.

I reckon we should wait until it's confirmed that we're stuffed first.

It might be a premature adjudication on my behalf.

But it's only my opinion. IMO we are close to being stuffed unless something changes pretty quickly. If it is simply a matter of our better players playing better, then they better get cracking.

If they are no longer up to it, then the coach needs to address this and modify his gameplan to suit.

If he continues with the 2010 gameplan which the current crop of players cannot execute, is he still a good coach?

Yeah, I see where you're coming from and do agree that it's up to the coach to make sure we don't capitulate.

But, I'm not convinced we're cooked yet! So it's too hard to measure the coach's performance just yet!

[Moods]

IMO, talk of "the pack" passing teams by wholesale is a myth.

St Kilda as running around right now would get hammered by the '09 and soundly beaten by the 2010 model. They're simply not playing the same quality of footy. They haven't been passed by the pack, they're just not as good.

Similarly, the idea a head coach can enact a swift turnaround is outdated. You can yell, you can drop a couple of guys ala 2008, but at the end of it all, much as footy may not be as entirely simple as it once was, it's certainly simple enough that if your players don't execute, you're screwed.

IMO, there are significant differences in the structures and tactics... but until the senior players start executing to their demonstrated capability, Lyon's in the boat with the also-rans whether we're playing a style for 2011, 2009, or 1896.

I think Lyon deserves his reputation. I wonder how his new assistants are going.

This.

[markp]

^

Yup... and as the OP points out, big month of footy coming up.

[SainterK]

This thread is far too early, as is writing off the side just yet.

Every year we that we have challenged, we have had a form slump.

Nothing new or unique about it.

Hopefully the only thing different this year is the timing, and it will simply be a case of the guys fighting their way out of it again.

Ross will remind them they can and have before.

I tend to agree.

It seems to be based on the presumption that we're stuffed, and therefore is the coach overrated.

I reckon we should wait until it's confirmed that we're stuffed first.

It might be a premature adjudication on my behalf.

But it's only my opinion. IMO we are close to being stuffed unless something changes pretty quickly. If it is simply a matter of our better players playing better, then they better get cracking.

If they are no longer up to it, then the coach needs to address this and modify his gameplan to suit.

If he continues with the 2010 gameplan which the current crop of players cannot execute, is he still a good coach?

To be honest, I'd be more worried if our second and third tier players were struggling.

It was the lesser names that were a major part of the win last week.

Our senior guys should take heart from that, signs that the entire 22 want to play their part in the journey, rather than leaving it to be shouldered by too few.

Even contribution, even effort.

We'll get out of this slump yet.

[Johnny Member]

We'll get out of this slump yet.

The question for me is though, how will we look when we get ot of it?

ie. will we win a few and make the top 6? Then what? Or will we click and be like last year and the year before?


I think the answer to that question is really the answer to the question of whether we rebuild or not.

If getting out of the slump merely means becoming 'Ok', then it's not really worth coming out of it!