Raph
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Con Gorozidis
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Con Gorozidis
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Bernard Shakey
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Pretty sure he didn't have a full pre season. Was an light duties on the first few open training sessions this year.BigMart wrote:Clarke had a FULL pre season.....he was injured R9 last year......by the start of preseason he had 22 weeks to recover.....he played in all preseason matches......he played well in two of them....it has been 11 months since his injury.....plenty of time to recover
No excuses for a 26yo player in his 8th season....if he cannot be a regular, he is a liability
Old enough to repaint, but young enough to sell
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borderbarry
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thejiggingsaint
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To the top
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On the basis of these comments, the list "cloggers" we have include Steven (drafted in 2007 and a handful of games only), Mc Evoy (drafted in 2007 and still very much an apprentice), Winmar (drafted in 2009 and has not played a game), Armitage (drafted in 2006 and has not reached 35 games as yet), Heyne (drafted in 2008 and a couple of games only), Stanley (drafted in 2008 and less than 10 games), Lynch (drafted in 2008 and only 1 game), McQualter (drafted in 2004 and unable to consolidate a spot in the side including being relegated to the Rookie List) plus Eddy and Geary who have been up-graded from the Rookie List but are unable to consolidate in the side.
Then we have Baker, Blake, Gamble, Milne and Dempster who are all past their use by dates because they are unable to play 2011 style footy - they just could not keep up with any Essendon player and that is just for starters.
At the least, before his injury last year and prior including in finals, Clarke showed good, consistent form - including in the match he was cut down in - remember that front on tackle of Pavlich?
So he has the abilities to contribute.
But it is a team game and when you are playing in defence you can be made to look ordinary if the rest of the team is not contributing and not contesting.
We had no contributors and we did not contest against Essendon.
Including because their rucks, their spread and their pace blitzed us.
Then we have Baker, Blake, Gamble, Milne and Dempster who are all past their use by dates because they are unable to play 2011 style footy - they just could not keep up with any Essendon player and that is just for starters.
At the least, before his injury last year and prior including in finals, Clarke showed good, consistent form - including in the match he was cut down in - remember that front on tackle of Pavlich?
So he has the abilities to contribute.
But it is a team game and when you are playing in defence you can be made to look ordinary if the rest of the team is not contributing and not contesting.
We had no contributors and we did not contest against Essendon.
Including because their rucks, their spread and their pace blitzed us.
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remboy
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I was thinking our drafting strategy should revovle getting at least one Jetta and one Rioli. They all seem to be able to run and kick the ball to a teammate.Con Gorozidis wrote:Can we get a Jetta? Cant be that hard. Just look up the whitepages and get one.
Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got one.
What is it about calling people raf 'haters' because the think he has not been good enough over a long period to warrant a position, perhaps on the list...
Where does he get this whipping boy perception....inside and outside the club......have you ever thought, perhaps he has earnt it...and supporters are absolutely frustrated with a supposed talented player making elementary mistakes.....yes he is 'the girl with a curl' he has attractive attributes, but NOT enough substamce....for an 8 year player
Fact is, he has NOT delivered on his ability, and has run out of chances....and not a minute too late....if we are to be successful, surely his output cannot be accepted......if you are, why....
Because he has played good games, has some good highlights....did some skilful thing.....i reckon his lowlights would clearly outweigh his highlights...
The fact his good games, and even good acts can be remembered and stated, is a problem within itself......he has played a lot of footy, and we can still say....what about that time when.....generally in defense of something poor....
Lenny, dal, joey, bj, roo, milne, sam f have played so many good games on a regular basis.... Its hard to single out their 7/10 games Even, kosi, gilbert,schnieder, gwilt, gram....have constantly delivered serviceable games, as well as vote getting games.....
Where does he get this whipping boy perception....inside and outside the club......have you ever thought, perhaps he has earnt it...and supporters are absolutely frustrated with a supposed talented player making elementary mistakes.....yes he is 'the girl with a curl' he has attractive attributes, but NOT enough substamce....for an 8 year player
Fact is, he has NOT delivered on his ability, and has run out of chances....and not a minute too late....if we are to be successful, surely his output cannot be accepted......if you are, why....
Because he has played good games, has some good highlights....did some skilful thing.....i reckon his lowlights would clearly outweigh his highlights...
The fact his good games, and even good acts can be remembered and stated, is a problem within itself......he has played a lot of footy, and we can still say....what about that time when.....generally in defense of something poor....
Lenny, dal, joey, bj, roo, milne, sam f have played so many good games on a regular basis.... Its hard to single out their 7/10 games Even, kosi, gilbert,schnieder, gwilt, gram....have constantly delivered serviceable games, as well as vote getting games.....
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So, Big Mart, let's do a comparative between Milne (whose name you use) and Clarke.
Milne has played 216 games, is 31 years of age and (once again) was our most ineffectual player against Essendon, mirroring his game against Geelong.
At 31 years of age and with 216 games of experience you would expect leadership and example setting - including by demanding to have an influence by presenting in the mid field.
You saw what we got.
Kicked 2 goals to keep his average up but was totally ineffectual apart from that.
His opponent/s ran off him creating mayhem for our defensive players who had multiple players to cover - and then no options if they did win the ball.
So, if you are going to pot what about a 31 year old, 216 game player who not only contributerd nix nought nothing but put pressure on his team mates including because he butchered his dinky disposals?
Clarke, and the rest of our defenders were all caught in the spotlight of an inferior team performance particularly by our rucks, mid-field and forwards.
There is no joy playing in defence under those circumstances.
Milne has played 216 games, is 31 years of age and (once again) was our most ineffectual player against Essendon, mirroring his game against Geelong.
At 31 years of age and with 216 games of experience you would expect leadership and example setting - including by demanding to have an influence by presenting in the mid field.
You saw what we got.
Kicked 2 goals to keep his average up but was totally ineffectual apart from that.
His opponent/s ran off him creating mayhem for our defensive players who had multiple players to cover - and then no options if they did win the ball.
So, if you are going to pot what about a 31 year old, 216 game player who not only contributerd nix nought nothing but put pressure on his team mates including because he butchered his dinky disposals?
Clarke, and the rest of our defenders were all caught in the spotlight of an inferior team performance particularly by our rucks, mid-field and forwards.
There is no joy playing in defence under those circumstances.
milne was quiet against geelong, very good against richmond (except kicking) and not as bad as you paint against essendon. overall from three games this year he's above the average of the side.To the top wrote:So, if you are going to pot what about a 31 year old, 216 game player who not only contributerd nix nought nothing but put pressure on his team mates including because he butchered his dinky disposals?
raph was decent against geelong, very poor against richmond and poor against essendon. overall from three games this year he's below the average of the side.
yes, one plays in defence and the other doesn't. but it's also true that one has been better than the other, so it's not surprising that the one who's been worse gets more bagging.
Consistant. Lot of lines and words. No sense.To the top wrote:So, Big Mart, let's do a comparative between Milne (whose name you use) and Clarke.
Milne has played 216 games, is 31 years of age and (once again) was our most ineffectual player against Essendon, mirroring his game against Geelong.
At 31 years of age and with 216 games of experience you would expect leadership and example setting - including by demanding to have an influence by presenting in the mid field.
You saw what we got.
Kicked 2 goals to keep his average up but was totally ineffectual apart from that.
His opponent/s ran off him creating mayhem for our defensive players who had multiple players to cover - and then no options if they did win the ball.
So, if you are going to pot what about a 31 year old, 216 game player who not only contributerd nix nought nothing but put pressure on his team mates including because he butchered his dinky disposals?
Clarke, and the rest of our defenders were all caught in the spotlight of an inferior team performance particularly by our rucks, mid-field and forwards.
There is no joy playing in defence under those circumstances.
no...he's only a kid...Con Gorozidis wrote:classic. maybe hes an imposter?BigMart wrote:There is a jetta at sandy.....
Last week he got donuts in every stat category....
.everybody still loves lenny....and we always will
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Bernard Shakey
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To the top
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To the top wrote:"Milne was very good against Richmond".
And what are Collingwood doing to Richmond?
What say we put things in perspective?
And, to Plodder 00, you typify an unfortunate number in this Country who can only read and comprehend 3 words.
How many posts saying exactly what?
Get a life!
.everybody still loves lenny....and we always will
"Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society,"
However, freedom of expression is not encouraged in certain forums.
"Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society,"
However, freedom of expression is not encouraged in certain forums.
S.milne is an opportunistic forward pocket.....hardest position to make a career out of......he must make the most of whatever scraps he gets...
He has played games, kicked critical goals and had a career raf clarke would only dream of....he will rightfully go down as a stk great....
Milne would easily be in a team of our second most successful decade....raf is not even in the team under the pump....
You lost the argument comparing him to milne....top ten in b&f last year.....leading goalkicker at 175cm....For the second time....
You should have compared him to gilbert or gram for more credibility.....but both of them have top 3 b&f finishes....
Defend him all you like.....he has not reached the level expected
He has played games, kicked critical goals and had a career raf clarke would only dream of....he will rightfully go down as a stk great....
Milne would easily be in a team of our second most successful decade....raf is not even in the team under the pump....
You lost the argument comparing him to milne....top ten in b&f last year.....leading goalkicker at 175cm....For the second time....
You should have compared him to gilbert or gram for more credibility.....but both of them have top 3 b&f finishes....
Defend him all you like.....he has not reached the level expected
What is it with these Rose-coloured glasses wearing Raph lovers?!?!
He is woeful. People are clinging to games he was good in years ago!! Now and the future is what people should consider.
Oh but he has epilepsy! Manage it, don't use it as a crutch.
Oh he's restricted by RL's game plan! So should RL just let Raph loose in the forward 50 to do whatever he likes??
And to compare him to Milne??? That's disgusting.
Raph Clarke is a hack and will never improve. Bring in the youth.
He is woeful. People are clinging to games he was good in years ago!! Now and the future is what people should consider.
Oh but he has epilepsy! Manage it, don't use it as a crutch.
Oh he's restricted by RL's game plan! So should RL just let Raph loose in the forward 50 to do whatever he likes??
And to compare him to Milne??? That's disgusting.
Raph Clarke is a hack and will never improve. Bring in the youth.
Kourkoumelis & Beveridge & Traianidis Appreciation Society
I say the same thing. Isnt it you writing the same crap about Milne all the time. And didnt you leave this site because a few disagreed with you. Sook. As I say a lot of words but no sunstance at all. You must be proud though, you have that old cleaner Stinger on your side. By the way I actually think he says less than you.To the top wrote:"Milne was very good against Richmond".
And what are Collingwood doing to Richmond?
What say we put things in perspective?
And, to Plodder 00, you typify an unfortunate number in this Country who can only read and comprehend 3 words.
How many posts saying exactly what?
Get a life!
ok. richmond are crap. so despite milne having the second-most possessions (from a forward pocket) and kicking 4.7 (accuracy the obvious negative) we shouldn't overrate his game.To the top wrote:"Milne was very good against Richmond".
And what are Collingwood doing to Richmond?
What say we put things in perspective?
so how do we rate raph's game against the tiges? he had the equal least possessions of any saint - just 6 touches. 1 mark as a floating backman. 0 tackles. donuts in most statistical categories.
if the tiges are so crap that i shouldn't overrate milne's game, how would you like me to justify raph's?
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To the top
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So let's extract this:-
Milne, our "leading goal kicker is a 175cm opportunistic foward pocket" who "relies on scraps".
In terms of St Kilda improving and taking the next step there is a problem right here.
On 2 fronts.
A 175cm forward pocket is our leading goal kicker
and
An opportunistic forward pocket.
Simply, we are not strong enough to carry an "opportunistic forward pocket player", particularly because of the interchange rule change which puts even more pressure on our mid-fielders and rotations and particularly because our premier mid-fielder, Hayes, is down.
If he can not contribute to the mid-field rotations then we can not afford such a player - no matter his average 2 goals a game.
So there is a structural reason why Milne is a liability.
I would much prefer Steven to Milne because Steven will contribute to the mid-field by contesting the hard ball and winning his share - and he kicked the famous 2 goals last week v. Essendon.
And Steven will improve. Milne will not improve because his "opportunistic forward pocket", "relying on crumbs" role is his game.
In fact Milne plays as a target forward, principally trying to out body his opponent in the marking contest - and is rarely front and centre when we kick to a contest (usually Koschitzke and sometimes Riewoldt).
Simply, in my view and on disclosed finals form, Clarke will play in a St Kilda premiership side - Milne has not in his 216 games and will not.
Time has run out and it is appropriate we move on - and that happens to everyone.
Our structural issues include the absence of Gardiner because Mc Evoy is a novice apprentice at the ruck caper - and Gardiner is the wrong side of 30 so we need to address this as Sydney did with Mumford and Collingwood did with Jolly - forget Ball, Jolly was the recruiting coup.
We just do not get the centre clearances in the absence of Gardiner so when we do attack from the back half our forwards are well up the ground and we are not dangerous because we do not have the fleet footed opportunistic forwards to run the legs off their opponents heading toward goal, happily handballing to each other and making defenders in the way look stupid - when does St Kilda ever score goals like this, because we do not have that personnel playing.
Hence the side ways chips, Riewoldt having 2, 3 or 4 opponents when the ball gets to him and the ball rebounds again from those situations - easily.
Whilst this is going on, Milne, the "opportunistic forward pocket", "relying on crumbs" is averaging 2 goals a game in the "hardest position to make a career of".
The comment it is the "hardest position to make a career of" says it all.
Why the hell put someone in that dedicated position?
That is what we must move on from to address the deficiencies in this side the likes of Essendon year after year (and Carlton and Collingwood last year) exposed so brutally.
More sides will expose us this year unless we act.
The warning signs are there - and we must address them or sink.
We have 13 players on our list who have played less than 10 AFL games, that is one third of our list and far too many - and we need to see exactly what we have in the cupboard by rotating these kids into the AFL side and seeing what they have at this level - and quickly because of the ages of our elites in Gardiner, Hayes, Riewoldt, Fisher, Koschitzke etc.
We drafted them after all.
Milne, our "leading goal kicker is a 175cm opportunistic foward pocket" who "relies on scraps".
In terms of St Kilda improving and taking the next step there is a problem right here.
On 2 fronts.
A 175cm forward pocket is our leading goal kicker
and
An opportunistic forward pocket.
Simply, we are not strong enough to carry an "opportunistic forward pocket player", particularly because of the interchange rule change which puts even more pressure on our mid-fielders and rotations and particularly because our premier mid-fielder, Hayes, is down.
If he can not contribute to the mid-field rotations then we can not afford such a player - no matter his average 2 goals a game.
So there is a structural reason why Milne is a liability.
I would much prefer Steven to Milne because Steven will contribute to the mid-field by contesting the hard ball and winning his share - and he kicked the famous 2 goals last week v. Essendon.
And Steven will improve. Milne will not improve because his "opportunistic forward pocket", "relying on crumbs" role is his game.
In fact Milne plays as a target forward, principally trying to out body his opponent in the marking contest - and is rarely front and centre when we kick to a contest (usually Koschitzke and sometimes Riewoldt).
Simply, in my view and on disclosed finals form, Clarke will play in a St Kilda premiership side - Milne has not in his 216 games and will not.
Time has run out and it is appropriate we move on - and that happens to everyone.
Our structural issues include the absence of Gardiner because Mc Evoy is a novice apprentice at the ruck caper - and Gardiner is the wrong side of 30 so we need to address this as Sydney did with Mumford and Collingwood did with Jolly - forget Ball, Jolly was the recruiting coup.
We just do not get the centre clearances in the absence of Gardiner so when we do attack from the back half our forwards are well up the ground and we are not dangerous because we do not have the fleet footed opportunistic forwards to run the legs off their opponents heading toward goal, happily handballing to each other and making defenders in the way look stupid - when does St Kilda ever score goals like this, because we do not have that personnel playing.
Hence the side ways chips, Riewoldt having 2, 3 or 4 opponents when the ball gets to him and the ball rebounds again from those situations - easily.
Whilst this is going on, Milne, the "opportunistic forward pocket", "relying on crumbs" is averaging 2 goals a game in the "hardest position to make a career of".
The comment it is the "hardest position to make a career of" says it all.
Why the hell put someone in that dedicated position?
That is what we must move on from to address the deficiencies in this side the likes of Essendon year after year (and Carlton and Collingwood last year) exposed so brutally.
More sides will expose us this year unless we act.
The warning signs are there - and we must address them or sink.
We have 13 players on our list who have played less than 10 AFL games, that is one third of our list and far too many - and we need to see exactly what we have in the cupboard by rotating these kids into the AFL side and seeing what they have at this level - and quickly because of the ages of our elites in Gardiner, Hayes, Riewoldt, Fisher, Koschitzke etc.
We drafted them after all.
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borderbarry
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A better comparison than Raph and Milne would be Raph and the other members of our defence. So far this season Raph has has one good game and two poor games, although I thought against Richmond he was fair. Apart from Sam Fisher, who has played better? Jimmy Gwilt had a shocker against Essendon, so did Gilbert. Dempster was'nt great either. Zac had a reasonable game. Now who have I missed?
Anyway the point is why single Raph out?
Anyway the point is why single Raph out?