3 Decisions That Cost The Club History

This unofficial St Kilda Saints fan forum is for people of all ages to chat Saints Footy and all posts must be respectful.

Moderators: Saintsational Administrators, Saintsational Moderators

spert
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 9151
Joined: Wed 29 Jun 2005 10:39pm
Location: A distant beach
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 438 times

Post: # 1053856Post spert »

Dr Spaceman wrote:
MadSaintFan wrote:What about the mulitple decisions made that almost brought the club 2 Premierships:

Nick Dal Santo at pick 13 approx
Leigh Montagna pick 20-30 approx
James Gwilt pick 70 approx
Sam Fisher pick 40 approx
....and theres many more which could be named.

No one mentions those much.
But it's not as much fun to talk about those ones :roll:
Yeah but where's the silverware, Gwilt stands out as the finals performer.


User avatar
Johnny Member
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4157
Joined: Thu 05 Oct 2006 12:27pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post: # 1053857Post Johnny Member »

Honestly, we were the best team in 05 and in 09.

It wasn't our list that cost us in those years. It was injuries in 05, and rotten luck in 09.

The other years, an extra gun player or two may have made us the best team - but the best team doesn't always win it!


It's really silly to look back at things like this. Hell, maybe Judd's shoulders would have popped out if we drafted him! Everyone else on the list seemed to break down!
Last edited by Johnny Member on Thu 31 Mar 2011 10:24am, edited 2 times in total.


User avatar
degruch
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 8948
Joined: Mon 19 May 2008 4:29pm
Location: Croydonia
Has thanked: 146 times
Been thanked: 237 times

Post: # 1053858Post degruch »

spert wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
MadSaintFan wrote:What about the mulitple decisions made that almost brought the club 2 Premierships:

Nick Dal Santo at pick 13 approx
Leigh Montagna pick 20-30 approx
James Gwilt pick 70 approx
Sam Fisher pick 40 approx
....and theres many more which could be named.

No one mentions those much.
But it's not as much fun to talk about those ones :roll:
Yeah but where's the silverware, Gwilt stands out as the finals performer.
It's a crying shame that the result of one game dictates whether you're a 'successful' team or not, or even the best team (e.g. Hawthorn 2008). But, that's the way it rolls. In 2009 we broke just about every record their was to break, yet we're still referred to as 'pretenders' by bitter opposition supporters (or even bitter St Kilda supporters)!

The fact is, if we hadn't recruited well, we wouldn't have even had a crack in 2004, 2005, 2006, 2008, 2009 and 2010. Bad recruiting hasn't cost us premierships, just bad performances/decisions/luck on the day.


User avatar
Johnny Member
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4157
Joined: Thu 05 Oct 2006 12:27pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post: # 1053859Post Johnny Member »

degruch wrote:
spert wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
MadSaintFan wrote:What about the mulitple decisions made that almost brought the club 2 Premierships:

Nick Dal Santo at pick 13 approx
Leigh Montagna pick 20-30 approx
James Gwilt pick 70 approx
Sam Fisher pick 40 approx
....and theres many more which could be named.

No one mentions those much.
But it's not as much fun to talk about those ones :roll:
Yeah but where's the silverware, Gwilt stands out as the finals performer.
It's a crying shame that the result of one game dictates whether you're a 'successful' team or not, or even the best team (e.g. Hawthorn 2008). But, that's the way it rolls. In 2009 we broke just about every record their was to break, yet we're still referred to as 'pretenders' by bitter opposition supporters (or even bitter St Kilda supporters)!

The fact is, if we hadn't recruited well, we wouldn't have even had a crack in 2004, 2005, 2006, 2008, 2009 and 2010. Bad recruiting hasn't cost us premierships, just bad performances/decisions/luck on the day.
Yeah, I agree.


AnythingsPossibleSaints
SS Life Member
Posts: 3152
Joined: Tue 02 Jun 2009 2:44am
Location: Next to what's next to me.
Has thanked: 71 times
Been thanked: 35 times

Post: # 1053879Post AnythingsPossibleSaints »

Well I'm just glad we took Andrew McQualter instead of Mark LeCras. It's not like that's probably single-handedly cost us the last two flags or anything.


YOU GET WHAT YOU SETTLE FOR.
User avatar
degruch
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 8948
Joined: Mon 19 May 2008 4:29pm
Location: Croydonia
Has thanked: 146 times
Been thanked: 237 times

Post: # 1053885Post degruch »

AnythingsPossibleSaints wrote:Well I'm just glad we took Andrew McQualter instead of Mark LeCras. It's not like that's probably single-handedly cost us the last two flags or anything.
You mean you would have ignored a highly fancied U16 and U18 Victorian Country Captain (who went to school with BJ, would would have vouched for his ability, I'm sure) for some unknown from the WAFL?

Even the Eagles used a second round pick for LeCras.

On the face of things, you'd think the Saints made an astute choice...doesn't always work out. That's why 20/20 hindsight is such a useless quality.


User avatar
stinger
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 38126
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 9:06pm
Location: Australia.

Post: # 1053888Post stinger »


amen brother... :cry: :cry:


.everybody still loves lenny....and we always will

"Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society,"

However, freedom of expression is not encouraged in certain forums.
SainterK
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 21057
Joined: Thu 14 Aug 2008 9:53pm
Location: Melb

Post: # 1053893Post SainterK »

I feel like I am going against the general mood of this thread, and my contribution is not really negative enough, but I'm yet to see anything that would suggest Jack can exist in a forward line as one of two KPF's....


AnythingsPossibleSaints
SS Life Member
Posts: 3152
Joined: Tue 02 Jun 2009 2:44am
Location: Next to what's next to me.
Has thanked: 71 times
Been thanked: 35 times

Post: # 1053894Post AnythingsPossibleSaints »

degruch wrote:
AnythingsPossibleSaints wrote:Well I'm just glad we took Andrew McQualter instead of Mark LeCras. It's not like that's probably single-handedly cost us the last two flags or anything.
You mean you would have ignored a highly fancied U16 and U18 Victorian Country Captain (who went to school with BJ, would would have vouched for his ability, I'm sure) for some unknown from the WAFL?

Even the Eagles used a second round pick for LeCras.

On the face of things, you'd think the Saints made an astute choice...doesn't always work out. That's why 20/20 hindsight is such a useless quality.
It was just a joke, I realise it's far from easy and I'm pretty sure I didn't say I would have done anything of the sort.


YOU GET WHAT YOU SETTLE FOR.
Moods
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4947
Joined: Fri 05 Jun 2009 3:05pm
Has thanked: 343 times
Been thanked: 496 times

Post: # 1053897Post Moods »

degruch wrote:
spert wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
MadSaintFan wrote:What about the mulitple decisions made that almost brought the club 2 Premierships:

Nick Dal Santo at pick 13 approx
Leigh Montagna pick 20-30 approx
James Gwilt pick 70 approx
Sam Fisher pick 40 approx
....and theres many more which could be named.

No one mentions those much.
But it's not as much fun to talk about those ones :roll:
Yeah but where's the silverware, Gwilt stands out as the finals performer.
It's a crying shame that the result of one game dictates whether you're a 'successful' team or not, or even the best team (e.g. Hawthorn 2008). But, that's the way it rolls. In 2009 we broke just about every record their was to break, yet we're still referred to as 'pretenders' by bitter opposition supporters (or even bitter St Kilda supporters)!

The fact is, if we hadn't recruited well, we wouldn't have even had a crack in 2004, 2005, 2006, 2008, 2009 and 2010. Bad recruiting hasn't cost us premierships, just bad performances/decisions/luck on the day.
Agree completely with Degruch. sadly that's the way history sees things. To be honest the EPL do it a much fairer way, but much less exciting way. Top team wins the championship. Not advocating that the AFL should go that way (not that they ever would) it's just a much fairer way of determining who was the best team that season. In 97 and 09 we were clearly the best team. Luck in 97 with injuries crueled us in the end. 09 poor kicking on the day ruined us. That's footy though


User avatar
degruch
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 8948
Joined: Mon 19 May 2008 4:29pm
Location: Croydonia
Has thanked: 146 times
Been thanked: 237 times

Post: # 1053898Post degruch »

[/quote]It was just a joke, I realise it's far from easy and I'm pretty sure I didn't say I would have done anything of the sort.[/quote]

It's getting hard to tell who's joking and who's not on here!

Reading the article about Jack Riewoldt at the Saints, I can't believe some arsehole actually wanted John Beveridge to comment on why he didn't pick JR ahead of Armitage...now that's a joke. Maybe they should have asked the other 11 recruiters who thought their club didn't need another KP forward?


User avatar
degruch
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 8948
Joined: Mon 19 May 2008 4:29pm
Location: Croydonia
Has thanked: 146 times
Been thanked: 237 times

Post: # 1053899Post degruch »

Moods wrote:That's footy though
It is, and we're not the only club who could sigh and wonder what if. Geez, as much as I hate 'em, how's Collingwood's GF luck over the years...pretty poor, honestly.


ashjam
Club Player
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue 21 Jun 2005 2:17am

Post: # 1053900Post ashjam »

Well some have chose to criticise me for this post, stating hindsight, been done to death etc.

First of all, this topic has created a big response and discussion which in my view is what these places are for isn't it?

Second of all, I agree with some posters that we have made some very good decisions with recruiting, Sam Fisher, Gilbert, Montagna and Gwilt being ones that come to mind.

However, I will stand by my original comments, the philosophy taking Ball before Judd was the wrong roll of the dice as had we have gone Judd we most likely would have still got Ball only because of hs age (17 at the time, and his reluctance to live interstate).

Had this have happened we all would have witnessed multiple flags by now.

As stinger also wrote, Blind Freddy knew of Jack's talents over Armitage at the time, and Matt Rendell, who was working at our club until September 2006, had been spruiking about Dangerfield for years, and history shows he went to Adelaide and chose him.

Anyway, it is a case of what could have been, and although some people like to attack, I am pleased it has got some people's attention.


User avatar
Dr Spaceman
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 14102
Joined: Thu 24 Sep 2009 11:07pm
Location: Newtown Institute of Saintology
Has thanked: 104 times
Been thanked: 62 times

Post: # 1053901Post Dr Spaceman »

degruch wrote:It's getting hard to tell who's joking and who's not on here!

Reading the article about Jack Riewoldt at the Saints, I can't believe some arsehole actually wanted John Beveridge to comment on why he didn't pick JR ahead of Armitage...now that's a joke. Maybe they should have asked the other 11 recruiters who thought their club didn't need another KP forward?
Particularly the Western Bulldogs who had been crying out for one for years and took the itsy bitsy spider instead :shock:


gringo
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 12421
Joined: Tue 24 Mar 2009 11:05pm
Location: St Kilda
Has thanked: 296 times
Been thanked: 55 times

Post: # 1053906Post gringo »

Mc evoy gone would make us look a little short wouldn't it? Well maybe Cain Ackland could have come back. Ruckmen are not about instant effect they hit their straps at about 25 so he may just be a great recruit. You could say not developing our own rucks cost us under Thommo. Monky, Clarke that c**k from North, Ackland etc. all were a disaster so we had to look at getting someone to develop. Essendon were waiting ages for Hille and Ryder to develop, now they're set for the next 10 years. We seemed to have a good forward line and a number of A grade mids, roll the dice and some come up, some don't.


User avatar
Johnny Member
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4157
Joined: Thu 05 Oct 2006 12:27pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post: # 1053908Post Johnny Member »

ashjam wrote:Well some have chose to criticise me for this post, stating hindsight, been done to death etc.

First of all, this topic has created a big response and discussion which in my view is what these places are for isn't it?
I never have an issue with anyone raising anything for discussion! that's what this place is here for!

What I think is silly though, is when people want to use hindsight but don't allow for any other variables.

Meaning, if we added Judd to our current team or any other team since his 2nd season we'd be awesome - if everything else that happened remained exactly the same!

He could have been injured in his first training session. He may have left for more money anyway before we won a flag. His presence may have forced other to leave for more money. We may have had him, but may have lost Roo to injury. etc. etc.

I'm cool with hypotheticals and 'what ifs', but I can't agree with flat out statements that we'd have definitely won flags if certain things like recruitment were done differently.


User avatar
degruch
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 8948
Joined: Mon 19 May 2008 4:29pm
Location: Croydonia
Has thanked: 146 times
Been thanked: 237 times

Post: # 1053909Post degruch »

Dr Spaceman wrote:
degruch wrote:It's getting hard to tell who's joking and who's not on here!

Reading the article about Jack Riewoldt at the Saints, I can't believe some arsehole actually wanted John Beveridge to comment on why he didn't pick JR ahead of Armitage...now that's a joke. Maybe they should have asked the other 11 recruiters who thought their club didn't need another KP forward?
Particularly the Western Bulldogs who had been crying out for one for years and took the itsy bitsy spider instead :shock:
To be honest, the Doggies had so many holes to fill at the time, they probably hadn't realised they needed a FF!

We had a lot of tall forward options in 2006 (Roo, Hamill, G-Train, Watts, Ferguson, Brooks, Kosi, Allen), but a midfield consisting of a retiring Harvs, a mid-20's Lenny (who's still probably got 5 years left in him!), a permenantly injured Luke Ball, and a lot of outside runners...so we recruited a hard in-under 18 year old midfielder for the future as our first round pick...doesn't seem so dense to me. I'd agree, it hasn't worked out as we'd all hoped...yet.


noob
Club Player
Posts: 1762
Joined: Mon 09 Jun 2008 10:32am

Post: # 1053912Post noob »

only one that probably cost us was bartel over clarke.


User avatar
Johnny Member
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4157
Joined: Thu 05 Oct 2006 12:27pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post: # 1053913Post Johnny Member »

gringo wrote:Mc evoy gone would make us look a little short wouldn't it? Well maybe Cain Ackland could have come back. Ruckmen are not about instant effect they hit their straps at about 25 so he may just be a great recruit. You could say not developing our own rucks cost us under Thommo. Monky, Clarke that c**k from North, Ackland etc. all were a disaster so we had to look at getting someone to develop. Essendon were waiting ages for Hille and Ryder to develop, now they're set for the next 10 years. We seemed to have a good forward line and a number of A grade mids, roll the dice and some come up, some don't.
McEvoy will be a gun.

May even happen as early as this year I reckon.


We've been trying to develop ruckmen for years. We started with Knobel as a 21yo, then he left. Ackland was only 22 when we got him - then he left! We gave up a lot for Brooks - then he did his knee and was toast.

We've also tried the recycled thing with the attempt on Cox, then Clarke, then Gardiner and King.

I don't think we really had a choice but to get a young ruckman from the draft. We're fortunate that he appears to be one who can play forward also - that's crucial these days.

Once ruckmen mature and start to show signs of being decent, they're pretty much unafforadable to poach (unless you're Collingwood for some reason!) so you need to get them young and grow them, or get them old and hope they don't break down and squeeze a year or so out of them.


SainterK
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 21057
Joined: Thu 14 Aug 2008 9:53pm
Location: Melb

Post: # 1053914Post SainterK »

Wonder if Richmond fans are wondering what there forward line would look tomorrow night if they'd taken Buddy over Tambling :wink:


User avatar
Johnny Member
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4157
Joined: Thu 05 Oct 2006 12:27pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post: # 1053915Post Johnny Member »

SainterK wrote:Wonder if Richmond fans are wondering what there forward line would look tomorrow night if they'd taken Buddy over Tambling :wink:
And/or Pavlich over Fiora!


User avatar
MCG-Unit
SS Life Member
Posts: 3155
Joined: Thu 11 Mar 2004 4:04pm
Location: Land of the Giants
Has thanked: 569 times
Been thanked: 20 times

Post: # 1053916Post MCG-Unit »

Deleted
Last edited by MCG-Unit on Thu 31 Mar 2011 12:39pm, edited 1 time in total.


No Contract, No contact :shock:
mohannair
Club Player
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri 08 May 2009 12:59pm
Location: Mill Park
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: 3 Decisions That Cost The Club History

Post: # 1053920Post mohannair »

All looks O.K. in Hindsight. Unfortunately thats not how the real life pans out.

Think positive & move ahead instead of weeping over the past.

ashjam wrote:Recruiting is the making & breaking of a football club.

I have rated the 3 worst decisions in drafting for us in the last decade that have cost our club so much.

1) 2001 - Pick #2 Luke Ball
Aside from Luke now being at Collingwood, the fallout from the decision not to select Chris Judd with this pick is dramatic and will continue.
Judd was a Sandringham Dragon and a Caulfield Grammar boy.
The most frustrating thing with this selection was that had we rolled the dice and taken Judd with this pick, it is almost certain we still would have got Ball with pick 5 as the two WA clubs were desperate for Polak and Sampi at the time, and would not have taken Ball as he was still staying at school in Melbourne for all of the next year.
Had Judd been a Saint we would have almost certainly been premiers in 2005, 2009 & 2010, and possibly 2004.
This decision alone has cost us at least 3 premierships.

2) 2006 - Pick #9 David Armitage
Whilst Armitage still battles away on our list, the decision not to take Jack Riewoldt defies any logic.
His cousin is a St.Kilda legend, captain and multiple best & fairest winner.
It was good enough to draft Raphael Clarke to join brother Xavier a few years earlier, it should have been a no-brainer that Jack Riewoldt should have joined his cousin at the Saints.
Jack wanted to come to St.Kilda.
Can you imagine our forward line with him in the goalsquare for the next 10 years?

3)2007 - Pick #9 Ben McEvoy
I rate McEvoy and think he is going to be a pretty good player.
However, next player chosen in that draft was Patrick Dangerfield followed 2 picks later by Cyril Rioli.
Ask yourself now if either Adelaide or Hawthorn came to us now and wanted to trade Dangerfield or Rioli for McEvoy would we do it??
Both of those players are lightning quick and imagine either one of those in our side now.

Can you imagine where we would be as a football club had we got these 3 decisions right?


remboy
SS Hall of Fame
Posts: 2135
Joined: Fri 22 Jul 2005 9:27am
Location: Rockville
Has thanked: 595 times
Been thanked: 178 times

Post: # 1053931Post remboy »

I'm sure if you went through every other club they've all made as many poor decisions as we have.
Just one question, if we hadn't drafted McEvoy, who woud have played in the ruck on Friday - Michael Rix?


Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got one.
User avatar
Dr Spaceman
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 14102
Joined: Thu 24 Sep 2009 11:07pm
Location: Newtown Institute of Saintology
Has thanked: 104 times
Been thanked: 62 times

Post: # 1053939Post Dr Spaceman »

remboy wrote:I'm sure if you went through every other club they've all made as many poor decisions as we have.
Just one question, if we hadn't drafted McEvoy, who woud have played in the ruck on Friday - Michael Rix?
You say that as though it's a negative :wink:


Post Reply