Tale of Two Rookies

[saintspremiers]

I do wonder how much HGH helped all those Pies rookies??

[widereceiver]

the ross lyon apprenticeship means drilling all the creative flair and dare from your youngsters when they arrive at the club and turn them into dour nevous wrecks with anxiety disorders.

We have all seen how BJ's ability, talent and skills have been undermined by Lyon's method, Con.

[borderbarry]

A lot seem to be under-rating Jack Steven here. He had limited opportunities last year, but shone against Geelong with 3 goals. I still expect big things from young Jack.

[St DAC]

I dont believe in the modern game we can carry too many poorly skilled players like GEARY. We already have JONES, CLARKE, McQUALTER, DEMPSTER and PEAKE

All but McQualter I agree with you. McQualter is by far our best spot up kick. He regularly hits targets inside 50. Roo's eyes must light up when he has the pill.

The rest you named struggle to hit a barn with a bucket of wheat.

[Richter]

It's all very well trying to compare two individual players from the pies and saints, but it misses the whole bigger picture.

Which is that the two teams have been built around completely different premises.

The pies identified that they had no superstar players. Compared to the Saints they have only one player (Jolley) who is clearly better in his position than the equivalent Saints player. They decided they had better find and coach players to fit a mould of consistency of talent all round - hence they have very few weak links. Their younger players like Beams, Sidebottom etc. were given more responsibility and thrived on it.

When RL arrived at the Saints he identified that the core elite players could improve the defensive aspects of their game, and that our best chance of a flag was based around this core group. Eg.s Roo and BJ are clearly better than their counterpart pie players. There is a group of excellent a graders underneath Roo and BJ, and then he has looked to add in bit part players under that to make up the sum of the whole - he took the trade route for some of these players - with IMO better than average success (Gardy, King, Schneider, Ray, Dawson - all pluses) - all were match hardened mature players. He also trusted the likes of Blake and Gwilt to become solid dependable players. This approach got us to 3 GFs one of which we lost by a whisker. Unfortunately the upshot has been that the younger players have not had the exposure that is vital to their progress.

RL has shown some willingness to give talented players a go - Armo got his chance early in last season - before he got injured - and Stanley got an extended chance - despite probably not really demanding his spot by dint of his performances week in week out.

IMO there are 3-5 'development spots' in the team. By and large RL has given these spots to guys who he trusts to do a job - McQualter, Dempster, Peake, Eddy - RL obviously hoped that these guys would make themselves into automatic picks in the way that Dawson, Gwilt and Ray have. McQ did it for a year in '09 - but now it is clear that there isn't really much more improvement you're going to get from these blokes. I'd like to see the balance moved further towards those who we can see have talent, but need an extended run to find their feet - Armitage, Stanley, Steven, Walsh, Geary (though I have some doubts about the latter's talent tbh).

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Maybe it's just me, but when a guy comes from as far back as Wellingham to make it, I don't think you can credit recruiters, trainers et al. you just have to have some respect for the player.

Wellingham was nothing at the end of 2009. Anyone but Malthouse would have used his wheels to tag. Malthouse doesn't rate taggers, so if he'd had a similar year in 2010 he was probably out. If you're a kid playing for Mick Malthouse, you'll get your chance early... but you better take it too (which is of course genious today, but was lunacy just 24 months ago...).

Sharrod Wellingham went out and got himself Dane Swan/Robert Harvey/Shane Crawford level fit. He sprinted at every pack he saw for 12 months and in the process became not just a line-breaker, but a goalkicker.

His field kicking is still pretty ordinary, but he's taken every are of his game that is in his control and pushed it as far as he possibly can.

Good on him.

[Moccha]

I dont believe in the modern game we can carry too many poorly skilled players like GEARY. We already have JONES, CLARKE, McQUALTER, DEMPSTER and PEAKE

All but McQualter I agree with you. McQualter is by far our best spot up kick. He regularly hits targets inside 50. Roo's eyes must light up when he has the pill.

The rest you named struggle to hit a barn with a bucket of wheat.

The only thing with McQualter is that he doesn't get it

[saintsRrising]

Just thought it was worthwhile comparing these 2 guys. Both from the 2006 rookie draft and both similar types of players. Even their names are similar.
Not sure what the point of the post it - that the draft is a lottery - But just disappointing we havent uncovered a quality speedy midfielder like Wellingham. Geary is miles off Wellinghams class at this stage.


Wellingham

Age: 22
Weight: 82kg
Height: 185 cm
Games: 52
Drafted: 2006 Rookie

It is probably worth noting that Wellingham was on the trade table a year ago with the Pies shopping himaround.

So prior to the 2010 season the Pies did not rate him.

[saintsRrising]

I dont believe in the modern game we can carry too many poorly skilled players like GEARY. We already have JONES, CLARKE, McQUALTER, DEMPSTER and PEAKE

All but McQualter I agree with you. McQualter is by far our best spot up kick. He regularly hits targets inside 50. Roo's eyes must light up when he has the pill.

.

In 2009 I would have agreed with you.

But in 2010, whenever Mini got the ball he hesitated and way more than in 2009 kick backwards., or sidways rather than forwards and to advantage.

In 2009 he was decisve..bith in kicking goals himself, and in setting up play for others.

In many ways Mini was the find of 2009. In 2010 he went backwards in many ways including in his field kicking.

[gringo]

You could go through a history of number three draft picks and make comparisons between one that made it and one that wasted a spot.

We tried to get Wellingham before he came good, we can spot talent too.

[BigMart]

Confirmed about wellingham being on the trade table? If so why wasnt he offered for ball.... Not sure he was...

A 21yo with 30 games....not generally shopped...

[MCG-Unit]

The sad thing is we could have had them BOTH.
Wasn't Wellingham offered to us for Luke Ball?.....

No I doubt it, another one of those speculations folks say was 'widely reported'

Lyon was quoted "...25 and 62 were on the table..." no spec there

Wellingham had a breakout year, before that you maybe could have got him for pick 50-60 IMO

[Animal Enclosure]

The filth were willing to part with Wellingham to North for a pick to satisfy us for Ball. Not sure if he was ever offered to us but you would assume so.

Fact is that at the end of 09 he wasn't rated by the filth, Kangas or us very highly.

[Con Gorozidis]

the ross lyon apprenticeship means drilling all the creative flair and dare from your youngsters when they arrive at the club and turn them into dour nevous wrecks with anxiety disorders.

We have all seen how BJ's ability, talent and skills have been undermined by Lyon's method, Con.

crap argument. dont even know if i should respond. bj was always going to be a gun. he was already developed when lyon arrived. and im clearly talking about the players who could go either way - i.e rookie - hence the name of the topic. not talking about top 3 draft picks here. and not disrespecting hard yakka . but sheesh. gwility is certainly the best example of a player that has clearly blossomed under lyon. if u had used him as ur example id have conceded.

im just wondering why gears hasnt developed alongside someone comparable like wellingham.

bj is not comparable.

[vacuous space]

Given that Geary was the 147th player picked in the combined 2006 drafts, I'd say he's somewhat outperformed expectations. He came to us as an outside midfielder with iffy kicking skills and has worked himself into a position where he's a fringe player on a team that is expected to go deep into September. I say good on him. If he keeps working, you never know what might happen.

[avid]

The sad thing is we could have had them BOTH.
Wasn't Wellingham offered to us for Luke Ball?.....

No I doubt it, another one of those speculations folks say was 'widely reported'

Lyon was quoted "...25 and 62 were on the table..." no spec there

Wellingham had a breakout year, before that you maybe could have got him for pick 50-60 IMO

Well, I could have sworn Wellingham was on offer to clinch the Ball deal. Why would I have gotten so excited about it otherwise? (I somehow thought I had special insight into Sharrod's hidden potential then.) I don't know how to go back and check.
I just might have to stand corrected on that one.

[Mr Magic]

The sad thing is we could have had them BOTH.
Wasn't Wellingham offered to us for Luke Ball?.....

No I doubt it, another one of those speculations folks say was 'widely reported'

Lyon was quoted "...25 and 62 were on the table..." no spec there

Wellingham had a breakout year, before that you maybe could have got him for pick 50-60 IMO

Well, I could have sworn Wellingham was on offer to clinch the Ball deal. Why would I have gotten so excited about it otherwise? (I somehow thought I had special insight into Sharrod's hidden potential then.) I don't know how to go back and check.
I just might have to stand corrected on that one.

Wellingham was offered to NM for their draft pick (#25)
Collingwood were looking for NM's pick #21/22 which would have been sufficient for us to give to WB for Everitt.
Pick #25 was not good enough for WB, so it's a moot point given that we announced that we would accept Everitt (for the Ball trade) or an equivalent player from Collingwood - Nathan Brown was mentioned but Collingwood said no.

If we couldn't get Everitt (or an equal alternative) we were happy to keep Ball. Which is why we offered him a new contract after Trade Week (at less money than what Collingwood offered/agreed on)

[plugger66]

The sad thing is we could have had them BOTH.
Wasn't Wellingham offered to us for Luke Ball?.....

No I doubt it, another one of those speculations folks say was 'widely reported'

Lyon was quoted "...25 and 62 were on the table..." no spec there

Wellingham had a breakout year, before that you maybe could have got him for pick 50-60 IMO

Well, I could have sworn Wellingham was on offer to clinch the Ball deal. Why would I have gotten so excited about it otherwise? (I somehow thought I had special insight into Sharrod's hidden potential then.) I don't know how to go back and check.
I just might have to stand corrected on that one.

Wellingham was offered to NM for their draft pick (#25)
Collingwood were looking for NM's pick #21/22 which would have been sufficient for us to give to WB for Everitt.
Pick #25 was not good enough for WB, so it's a moot point given that we announced that we would accept Everitt (for the Ball trade) or an equivalent player from Collingwood - Nathan Brown was mentioned but Collingwood said no.

If we couldn't get Everitt (or an equal alternative) we were happy to keep Ball. Which is why we offered him a new contract after Trade Week (at less money than what Collingwood offered/agreed on)

We may have said we offered him more money but i really doubt it. By then we had Lovett and i doubt we had any money in the salary cap. He was always going after a trade couldnt be done.

[MCG-Unit]

The sad thing is we could have had them BOTH.
Wasn't Wellingham offered to us for Luke Ball?.....

No I doubt it, another one of those speculations folks say was 'widely reported'

Lyon was quoted "...25 and 62 were on the table..." no spec there

Wellingham had a breakout year, before that you maybe could have got him for pick 50-60 IMO

Well, I could have sworn Wellingham was on offer to clinch the Ball deal. Why would I have gotten so excited about it otherwise? (I somehow thought I had special insight into Sharrod's hidden potential then.) I don't know how to go back and check.
I just might have to stand corrected on that one.

You may well have had insight into Wellingham..........several Coll players names were speculated by the media as being offered to the Saints

The only thing we know for sure is that Ross Lyon stated that '25 & 62 were on the table, but it wouldn't get the deal done'

Coll didn't have 25 NM did - so Coll must have offered up something to NM - seems like it was Wellingham + 30 for 25

I think later Malthouse came out and said JW was never up for trade -
What else could he say once Wellingham was retained

[degruch]

Up until the end of 2010, I would have been happy enough with Geary over Wellingham...Wellingham finished up well, whilst Geary seems to have got the yips ever since that average game he played against Collingwood mid last season!

[Megamaguire]

Noop ? (sorry spelling bad) said "Most of the midfield don't attack the big sticks often". I've been hoping our midfield starts slotting a much greater ammount of 6 pointers on a regular basis for a few years now. Bj can obviously be relied on but we need more. I think Jack Steven has a fwd. posi just waiting for him - given that he can kick straight but he has to be a Jack of all trades too (ie) defensive fwd plays. Hope he makes it.

Geary can get there and should adjust to what Ross wants. If he can keep adjusting himself to the coaches goals he'll have a great base to branch out from and let that flair out.
Armo looks comfortable enough out there and all things considered should get the lucky breaks (injuries etc.) he needs this year. These 3 still look youngish but closish too to making a bigger impact.

I'm still enthusiastic about Lynche. In the brief window that is the NAB i thought he showed great focus on chasing and tackling which encourages those around him and also demonstrated some good vision and safe passing. I will be v. disappointed if he doesn't play a lot more games in 2011.

Gamble has eased any worry that i had regarding his worth on the scoreboard at least - he can convert kicks to 6 points and gee we can do with more of that!

Glad Raph is back and Gwilte continues to close the gap on Sam Fischer.

Rd. ! against Geelong is a big one for us. Here's another opportunity to play at our best against one of the best going around.

All the best to Sam Fischer in his recovery.

GO SAINTS!