Rumours Saints are keen on Travis Johnstone.

[St Ick]

Ive seen Sam Gilbert be disastrous and turn the ballover in defence.I think Raph is much maligned cause he got caught with the ball in a GF. IMHO in recent times Raph - when not injured and playing with confidence - has been good down back. Hes a great size, can take a grab and is quicker than you realise.

Great size, but lacks body strength and has awkward positioning. Also has difficulty reacting quickly when the ball hits the deck.

I don't malign him at all for his horrific GF moment - those things are pretty much a weekly occurrence with Raph. The problem is his mistakes are often a catalyst for shifting momentum to the opposition. A goal from a turnover inspires incredible belief in the opposition - it shows how susceptible we are to pressure.

I think your Gilbert example is a good one. He's a turnover merchant; not so much in direct turnovers, but in hospital kicks and hand passes - these are the ones the stats don't capture.

However, when you throw Dawson into the mix as well, that's potentially three players in our backline who can't stand pressure. Add Gram, whose kicking can range between reasonable and diabolical, and it's no wonder we couldn't break the Collingwood zone in GF2.

I simply shudder to think at how Raph would have gone in either match. He'll have the odd good match (2008 PF when the sting went out of game, 2009 PF - showed composure) but he's been superceded by Gwilt IMO.

Playing him in defense has at times been tough but I reckon it will undoubtedly assist Raph's decision making and him as a footballer overall.

Look, it probably will. But ultimately, you need results.

He's been at the club since November 2003. How long can you take? And is our compulsive need to see him develop actually taking a place away from our other young defenders?

Why do people think Zac is dodgy under pressure.
He was equal player of the finals under the B&F rating system, should prove otherwise, once and for all shouldn't it?

Zac was fantastic in the finals, but the fact remains that the difference between his best and his worst is as big as any other player in the AFL IMHO. When his confidence is up, he is superb, when its down, he is woeful so unless he can string a season or two together of consistant footy, the questionmark will always remain. Hopefully his finals form will give him the belief that he is good enough, only time will tell for him...

[Spinner]

Ive seen Sam Gilbert be disastrous and turn the ballover in defence.I think Raph is much maligned cause he got caught with the ball in a GF. IMHO in recent times Raph - when not injured and playing with confidence - has been good down back. Hes a great size, can take a grab and is quicker than you realise.

Great size, but lacks body strength and has awkward positioning. Also has difficulty reacting quickly when the ball hits the deck.

I don't malign him at all for his horrific GF moment - those things are pretty much a weekly occurrence with Raph. The problem is his mistakes are often a catalyst for shifting momentum to the opposition. A goal from a turnover inspires incredible belief in the opposition - it shows how susceptible we are to pressure.

I think your Gilbert example is a good one. He's a turnover merchant; not so much in direct turnovers, but in hospital kicks and hand passes - these are the ones the stats don't capture.

However, when you throw Dawson into the mix as well, that's potentially three players in our backline who can't stand pressure. Add Gram, whose kicking can range between reasonable and diabolical, and it's no wonder we couldn't break the Collingwood zone in GF2.

I simply shudder to think at how Raph would have gone in either match. He'll have the odd good match (2008 PF when the sting went out of game, 2009 PF - showed composure) but he's been superceded by Gwilt IMO.

Playing him in defense has at times been tough but I reckon it will undoubtedly assist Raph's decision making and him as a footballer overall.

Look, it probably will. But ultimately, you need results.

He's been at the club since November 2003. How long can you take? And is our compulsive need to see him develop actually taking a place away from our other young defenders?

Why do people think Zac is dodgy under pressure.
He was equal player of the finals under the B&F rating system, should prove otherwise, once and for all shouldn't it?

Zac was fantastic in the finals, but the fact remains that the difference between his best and his worst is as big as any other player in the AFL IMHO. When his confidence is up, he is superb, when its down, he is woeful so unless he can string a season or two together of consistant footy, the questionmark will always remain. Hopefully his finals form will give him the belief that he is good enough, only time will tell for him...

I disagree with this comment....

He was rarely woeful.

From memory Franklin kicked 5 on him - But he played well that night.

Sick and tired of every football supporter from all teams paying out on the easy target 'dawson'.

He had one bad game as a boy in a dreadful hawthorn team - against the mountain rocca and has been paying reputational wise ever since.

[saintphantom]

Ive seen Sam Gilbert be disastrous and turn the ballover in defence.I think Raph is much maligned cause he got caught with the ball in a GF. IMHO in recent times Raph - when not injured and playing with confidence - has been good down back. Hes a great size, can take a grab and is quicker than you realise.

Great size, but lacks body strength and has awkward positioning. Also has difficulty reacting quickly when the ball hits the deck.

I don't malign him at all for his horrific GF moment - those things are pretty much a weekly occurrence with Raph. The problem is his mistakes are often a catalyst for shifting momentum to the opposition. A goal from a turnover inspires incredible belief in the opposition - it shows how susceptible we are to pressure.

I think your Gilbert example is a good one. He's a turnover merchant; not so much in direct turnovers, but in hospital kicks and hand passes - these are the ones the stats don't capture.

However, when you throw Dawson into the mix as well, that's potentially three players in our backline who can't stand pressure. Add Gram, whose kicking can range between reasonable and diabolical, and it's no wonder we couldn't break the Collingwood zone in GF2.

I simply shudder to think at how Raph would have gone in either match. He'll have the odd good match (2008 PF when the sting went out of game, 2009 PF - showed composure) but he's been superceded by Gwilt IMO.

Playing him in defense has at times been tough but I reckon it will undoubtedly assist Raph's decision making and him as a footballer overall.

Look, it probably will. But ultimately, you need results.

He's been at the club since November 2003. How long can you take? And is our compulsive need to see him develop actually taking a place away from our other young defenders?

Why do people think Zac is dodgy under pressure.
He was equal player of the finals under the B&F rating system, should prove otherwise, once and for all shouldn't it?

Zac was fantastic in the finals, but the fact remains that the difference between his best and his worst is as big as any other player in the AFL IMHO. When his confidence is up, he is superb, when its down, he is woeful so unless he can string a season or two together of consistant footy, the questionmark will always remain. Hopefully his finals form will give him the belief that he is good enough, only time will tell for him...

I disagree with this comment....

He was rarely woeful.

From memory Franklin kicked 5 on him - But he played well that night.

Sick and tired of every football supporter from all teams paying out on the easy target 'dawson'.

He had one bad game as a boy in a dreadful hawthorn team - against the mountain rocca and has been paying reputational wise ever since.

Problem with Dawson is when he is on he is bloody brilliant. But when he is off he sucks lemons.

there is no in between. That is why he cops it.

[St Ick]

I don't like bagging our players, but at times mid season last year when his form was down (as was the form of some others), I'm sorry to say but he was woeful. Thankfully he came good, and hopefully he continues his form as I said.

[evertonfc]

Good calls on Dawson.

When he's up, he's up.

When he's down, he's awful.

We need him cut out those shabby performances and become more consistent.

Needs a big pre-season in the gym.

[maverick]

I don't like bagging our players, but at times mid season last year when his form was down (as was the form of some others), I'm sorry to say but he was woeful. Thankfully he came good, and hopefully he continues his form as I said.

When was that?

[Mr Magic]

I don't like bagging our players, but at times mid season last year when his form was down (as was the form of some others), I'm sorry to say but he was woeful. Thankfully he came good, and hopefully he continues his form as I said.

When was that?

When he was involved in the 'killing of Bambi'.
Many apparently have not 'forgiven' him for taking Max's spot in the 2009 GF team, even though he was a great contributor to teh greatest Saints backline in history.

It's easy to throw around terms like 'woeful' when describing his performances.
Especially if you have absolutely no idea of what the instructions given to him were.

I would be staggered to think that the coaching panel continued to pick him week after week if his preformances were so 'woeful'.

[Spinner]

I don't like bagging our players, but at times mid season last year when his form was down (as was the form of some others), I'm sorry to say but he was woeful. Thankfully he came good, and hopefully he continues his form as I said.

When was that?

When he was involved in the 'killing of Bambi'.
Many apparently have not 'forgiven' him for taking Max's spot in the 2009 GF team, even though he was a great contributor to teh greatest Saints backline in history.

It's easy to throw around terms like 'woeful' when describing his performances.
Especially if you have absolutely no idea of what the instructions given to him were.

I would be staggered to think that the coaching panel continued to pick him week after week if his preformances were so 'woeful'.

Correctomundo

[saintsRrising]

Zac was ill over summer...and started the year underdone and underweight.

Lyon knew he needed a big defender...and knew Zac could do the job in the finals.

Lyon had faith ...that he could get Zac right by the finals and he persevered with him to get him right.

By B+F votes Zac was our best player over all the finals.

By observation Zac was very good.

Give Zac a full pre-season over this Summer, and I would be confident that he will go well in 2011.

[St Ick]

Zac was ill over summer...and started the year underdone and underweight.

Lyon knew he needed a big defender...and knew Zac could do the job in the finals.

Lyon had faith ...that he could get Zac right by the finals and he persevered with him to get him right.

By B+F votes Zac was our best player over all the finals.

By observation Zac was very good.

Give Zac a full pre-season over this Summer, and I would be confident that he will go well in 2011.

Good post, agree with it all. I'll still stick by my comments that he was very average (or woeful) at some stages midseason. I remember instances where he missed obvious tackles, ran under contests when 3rd man up and was outbodied by smaller opponents. My arguement is 'woeful' because i can't remember the games this occurred in, but I remember they occurred, one of the games was over in Adelaide from memory but my memory isn't all the flash with the specifics. I just remember my frustration at the time, there is no way you can honestly sit there and say that he didn't play some shockers this year when his confidence was obviously down.

Anyway, he finished the year off really well and hopefully with a full pre-season over summer, he will continue the great form he had over the finals series.

[avid]

Zac started off great in 2009, and was great pretty much the whole season.
He started off terribly in 2010, and finally played great again at the end.
That suggess there was something wrong with him for a while, not that he is "inconsistant".

[Saints Premiers 2008]

Good calls on Dawson.

When he's up, he's up.

When he's down, he's awful.

We need him cut out those shabby performances and become more consistent.

Needs a big pre-season in the gym.

Why would the gym assist him?

When he has played well and been surprisingly physical...he didn't need the gym then

He problems stem from his positioning and at times he can look bloody awful.

Great finals series though.

[maverick]

Zac was ill over summer...and started the year underdone and underweight.

Lyon knew he needed a big defender...and knew Zac could do the job in the finals.

Lyon had faith ...that he could get Zac right by the finals and he persevered with him to get him right.

By B+F votes Zac was our best player over all the finals.

By observation Zac was very good.

Give Zac a full pre-season over this Summer, and I would be confident that he will go well in 2011.

Good post, agree with it all. I'll still stick by my comments that he was very average (or woeful) at some stages midseason. I remember instances where he missed obvious tackles, ran under contests when 3rd man up and was outbodied by smaller opponents. My arguement is 'woeful' because i can't remember the games this occurred in, but I remember they occurred, one of the games was over in Adelaide from memory but my memory isn't all the flash with the specifics. I just remember my frustration at the time, there is no way you can honestly sit there and say that he didn't play some shockers this year when his confidence was obviously down.

Anyway, he finished the year off really well and hopefully with a full pre-season over summer, he will continue the great form he had over the finals series.

I don't think he was woeful or had shockers at all.
He makes errors, and has moments in games, but other than specific match ups he gets a game every week, no doubt.
He gets marked harder than just about everyone else (maybe bar Raph), mistakes that most other players make get magnified for Zac.
It appears the supporters are the only ones that don't rate him.

[Teflon]

Ive seen Sam Gilbert be disastrous and turn the ballover in defence.I think Raph is much maligned cause he got caught with the ball in a GF. IMHO in recent times Raph - when not injured and playing with confidence - has been good down back. Hes a great size, can take a grab and is quicker than you realise.

Great size, but lacks body strength and has awkward positioning. Also has difficulty reacting quickly when the ball hits the deck.

I don't malign him at all for his horrific GF moment - those things are pretty much a weekly occurrence with Raph. The problem is his mistakes are often a catalyst for shifting momentum to the opposition. A goal from a turnover inspires incredible belief in the opposition - it shows how susceptible we are to pressure.

I think your Gilbert example is a good one. He's a turnover merchant; not so much in direct turnovers, but in hospital kicks and hand passes - these are the ones the stats don't capture.

However, when you throw Dawson into the mix as well, that's potentially three players in our backline who can't stand pressure. Add Gram, whose kicking can range between reasonable and diabolical, and it's no wonder we couldn't break the Collingwood zone in GF2.

I simply shudder to think at how Raph would have gone in either match. He'll have the odd good match (2008 PF when the sting went out of game, 2009 PF - showed composure) but he's been superceded by Gwilt IMO.

Playing him in defense has at times been tough but I reckon it will undoubtedly assist Raph's decision making and him as a footballer overall.

Look, it probably will. But ultimately, you need results.

He's been at the club since November 2003. How long can you take? And is our compulsive need to see him develop actually taking a place away from our other young defenders?

I think the point I make badly about Raph - and Ive been critical of him also at times - is IMO he simply has not had the continuity in his football to go to the next level. Gwilt now has and its shown.

Can you honestly say any Clarke has EVER strung together 20 + games?

Its why Im not prepared to just yet throw Raph on the scrapheap.

I have seen Raph put a few games together and hes definately gotten better and become a more damaging player when hes had the chance.

Lets get him right and see if he can take the next step - if nothing else surely hes handy for depth

[bigcarl]

I have seen Raph put a few games together and hes definately gotten better and become a more damaging player when hes had the chance.

Agree. Perhaps a more creative role for him. Wing, half forward or even on-baller. Could be the making of him.

[Sainter_Dad]

Re: Zac

I have been a Zac fan for a while now and I love the Zac Attack (when he is supremely confident eg sitting BBBBH on his butt)

Please everyone remember at the start of 2010 Zac had played 37 AFL games (14 for Hawthorn) and most of us have to say that 2009 was a stellar year for the 'young' man. So thats 23 good to very good games.

2010 he played 20 games. How many were truly poor. If you say 25% of the games he played in 2010 thats 5 games.

5 poor games - 38 good to very good games - 90ish% very very servicable.

Even if you say 50% poor games from 2010 - Thats 10 from 43. Still under 25% poor games.

Thats from a massive 53 gamer.

I know that as a backman his issues become obvious as they result in a shot on goal. Future with Zac - absolutely huge.

Oh - I loved Maxxy more than is healthy - but he was never going to be with us in 2010 - How would our season have played out this year with a 14 game newbie in Full Back after Max had been 'retired'.

[gringo]

Great a post that has gone back to bagging Raph, Zac, Peake and we haven't even started on Eddy.

Raph is hammered from getting run down in the09 GF. Fisher didn't call to him to get rid of it and passed it to him under pressure.

Zac has had a couple of games where he was exposed, but usually it was in games where all our backline players were down he just happens to stand there in the centre of the goal square and is the one you see when the ball goes past.

On Johnson, he is a good player and was a melbourne star before being traded. He is out of sight in brisbane and may slip peoples minds how good he was. If he came with a cheap price tag he would be very handy.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

Raph probably won't amount to anything but a gop when he is on the park. He has awful brain fades that probably give his haters another leg to stand on.

Zac has the ability to develop into an above average defender if he improves his positioning when he is one out and continues his physical, confident nature. For a smaller guy when he hits the players stay down. It's great to see.

Hopefully a few big hits early on next year will give him confidence in other aspects of his game.

[bergholt]

Raph is hammered from getting run down in the09 GF.

those with long memories will recall that he was getting bagged well before the 09 grand final.

[joffaboy]

Raph is hammered from getting run down in the09 GF.

those with long memories will recall that he was getting bagged well before the 09 grand final.

yes but funnily enough not on the week between the PF of 09 and the GF of 09

[Moccha]

After this diatribe are the Saints still keen on Johnstone?

Cheaper than an old dunny door

[Saints Premiers 2008]

After this diatribe are the Saints still keen on Johnstone?

Cheaper than an old dunny door

Well at least he is back in Melbourne with his old deal............ers...

[Eastern]

After this diatribe are the Saints still keen on Johnstone?

Cheaper than an old dunny door

I'll stick with the dunny door if you don't mind. I have a lot to hide !!

[Stephen Theodore]

I've seen a fair bit of Johnstone up here, as I go to the majority of Lions home games.

Johnstone has absolutely no defensive side to him, and at 30 y.o. its hard to see him fitting in to a team like St Kilda that is so defence based. In saying that his foot skills are spot on, and IMO, he just never seemed to fit into the Lions team, both with Matthews and Voss.

Was a shadow of his Melbourne form for the majority of time at Lions.

[stinger]

After this diatribe are the Saints still keen on Johnstone?

Cheaper than an old dunny door

I'll stick with the dunny door if you don't mind. I have a lot to hide !!

i know a very funny joke about a blind man and a dunny door on a prawn trawler.......remind me to tell it to you one day ...over a beer....