Still behind Cats....

[Mr Magic]

In the early days of the naughties I will always remember Bomber quietly getting it on the record that He thought that Gellong had some pretty good kids too (refering to the hype about the Saints kids coming through at the time)
In the end he has been proven correct.
Over the last handful of seasons we have been able to run with Geelong.
But in the end thats all we have been able to do, run with, the win/loss ratios may look pretty good, but they have beaten us when it matters, and won two.

But people, three years ago Malthouse started to move the goal posts
to devise a game plan and build a team which will beat Geelong (with scant regard to the other sides I might add)

Geelong will be thereabouts but Collingwood are the benchmark now.

I believe that in 2008 off season we worked out how to beat Geelong. By and large it worked during 2009 but unfortunately in the most important game of the year we were confronted with conditions that affected us more than our opposition. Combined with the failure to take our opportunities when they arose it cost us a premiership.
In teh off-season I believe we refined our gameplan so as to make the conditions irelevant when we played Geelong in theGF again.
Unfortunately we lost Roo very early on and had to 'scramble' our way into the top 4. And just as we seemed to be learning to live without Roo, he came back (through his own amazing recuperative powers) and we had to relearn what we had thrown away for the previous 12 weeks.

Also, unbeknownst to us, Collingwood devised another plan which caused the Geelong gameplan to unravel. I don't believe Malthouse worked this out 3 years ago - I belive it was as a result of being comprehensively smashed by both Geelong and St Kilda over the past 2 seasons i finals, they 'tweaked' their own gameplan over off-season 2009.

We now have to 'tweak' our own gameplan to take into account what Collingwood is doing.

I don't believe it means we throw out what has proven over the past 2 seasons to be an effective gameplan.
Just 'tweak' it in various aspects.

[Teflon]

Having said that, we need more scoring from the non forwards as well.

We can't have any of the last four years style of Saints Footy and expect more goals from midfielders imo.

It would need a different type of plan and I doubt that will be forthcoming. We really need forwards who can impact the scoreboard as well as hold our defensive structure. Eddy is only young but McQualter has shown that his good season in 2009 is the abberation rather than the many poor seasons he has had.

I have real soft spot for Kos (I think anyone who went week in/week out in 2001 probably does) but it's almost time to chuck him in the ruck and rest him up forward.

A few more goals here and there and we will take a lot of pressure of Roo, Milne and Schneider.

I am sure that part of our chocking in front of goals in finals in the premium on them because we score so few in the tighter game style.

We didn't trade anyone out to free up money so the caoching staff must believe that the players to bolster the starting 21/22 are already on the list.

A kid having an immediate impact straight out of the draft would be fantastic as well (if that is possible at St Kilda)...

Agree with that and Mr Magics post re game plan tweaking

Lets face it we need IMO to do 2 things to take our game plan to another level:

Find some midfield goals
Radically improve our fwd ball movement which in the GF and at other times this year has been very stagnant, cautious.

I read a filth fan recently indicating the difference between them and us was.....when they got a turn over they see this as an opportunity to score...to take the game pn quickly......while we tended to be more cautious, deliberate...slow. There is some truth here and as he put it......why would you play that way with the games best fwd getting a cold down the other end?

The reality is the balance lies between attacking and us continuin to defend...but we have to become far less preictable going fwd.....aka Pies.

[bigcarl]

The filth have plenty of legspeed but I reckon we can counter that with QUICKER AND MORE DIRECT movement of the ball.

Aerially we are stronger than them (imo) and might be better served with a longer kicking game.

That might sound unfashionable, unscientific and a bit like "kick it down the guts", but it has worked before and plays to our aerial strengths.

After all, the ball moves quicker through the air than anyone (even the filth) can run.

So, yes MOVE IT QUICKER and back your teammate to win the contest.

On the question of more midfield goals, perhaps Riewoldt needs to play deeper to give them the option of going over his head. Maybe play him as a true full forward, staying within 50 metres.

Otherwise, they aim for the big blond bloke rather than the big sticks.

We've also got too many players behind the ball too often.

It is no use having quick delivery to your forwards if you don't actually have a forward line in place.

[meher baba]

The real differences between Geelong and the Saints over 10 years are obvious to me.

Both teams built themselves up from nothing with early draft picks and novice coaches. We had the better draft picks, but they got some extraordinay father-son picks.

By 2006 it looked as if they had already peaked and we were ahead of them. Then two things happened:

1) We sacked our coach and brought in another novice and inevitably went backwards while he learnt how to steer (which he did in the remarkably short time of 18 months).

2) Geelong, who performed far worse in 2006 than we did, kept their coach and stability and also, by dint of their low finish, got a good first round draft pick with which they more or less won the lottery: picking a champion who managed to reach a near-Brownlow level of achievement in his first season of AFL.

Most on here seem to believe that we would have continued to "go backwards" if we hadn't sacked GT. We will never know for sure. But changing coach (particularly when the incoming coach had such a radically different game plan) certainly ensured that we had no hope in 2007 and 2008.

Another feature of Lyon's approach which is quite different to both Thompson's and GT's is that he is 95% focused on getting the game plan right whereas the other two were also strongly focused on developing the playing list.

Lyon's brilliant and meticulous game plan took us to within a fingernail's length of winning two flags. I think most on here now think that we can't take the plan any further, but that it won't on its own be enough to take us past the Pies, and quite possibly the Cats and others, next year.

Lyon simply must turn his attention to our list: find something in our young players that can take us that extra step. We certainly don't have any Joel Selwood's lurking around. But that's ok, we don't need someone as talented as him. Another Pods or Varcoe would be just about enough IMO!

[StSteven]

Fascinating issue. I am not convinced Geelong are out of it. What concerns me is they have two flags in the bank and they are already gearing up fora a new approach, with a new coach. They did a remarkable job to stay up so long with every team hunting them. The pressure is now off them and that will assist them.

I believe this is our last crack without major changes, and that includes our coaching staff. If we don't win it this year it is time for a change of game plan and personnel. It worries me that Geelong are already ahead in that strategy.

Just a thought......

[St. Luke]

There is nothing to suggest otherwise that the Filth could be every bit like the Bombers of 2000! A fly by night prodigy who won't be able to replicate the same effort the following season! Whereas we have!

To come so close to a flag two years running is gut wrenching! Still, I truly believe it's not over for us yet! Not even close!

[Teflon]

Fascinating issue. I am not convinced Geelong are out of it. What concerns me is they have two flags in the bank and they are already gearing up fora a new approach, with a new coach. They did a remarkable job to stay up so long with every team hunting them. The pressure is now off them and that will assist them.

I believe this is our last crack without major changes, and that includes our coaching staff. If we don't win it this year it is time for a change of game plan and personnel. It worries me that Geelong are already ahead in that strategy.

Just a thought......

I tend to think the same.

Very interesting year - especially for Lyon who IMO has been brilliant but the reality is that our game plan this year needs a tweak.....we have to find better balance between attack/defence. Lyons clearly adept in the defence mindset......can he now trun that same focus to improve our attack - which in reality translates to a less predictable, more fluid way to enter fwd 5o and score....aka mids FFS take a shot and some pressure off Roo!!

Lets face it - pies have managed to be defensive AND score heavily.
We have mastered 1 of these.

Time to get creative - I believe one positive for us is that we do have some excellent flexibility in the likes of Goddard, Fisher, Gilbert etc even R Clarke if he can put it together has the size/speed to do a different role....and IMO Kosi has to become a truly good second ruck option with less time fwd......its time we found another foil for Roo that also can add defensive pressure to stop the rebounding scores. Kos can still pinch hit there...but for mine thats gotta be less....

and did I say FFS mids kick a goal!

[bigcarl]

Very interesting year - especially for Lyon who IMO has been brilliant but the reality is that our game plan this year needs a tweak.....we have to find better balance between attack/defence. Lyons clearly adept in the defence mindset......can he now trun that same focus to improve our attack - which in reality translates to a less predictable, more fluid way to enter fwd 5o and score....aka mids FFS take a shot and some pressure off Roo!!

Lets face it - pies have managed to be defensive AND score heavily.
We have mastered 1 of these.

Time to get creative - I believe one positive for us is that we do have some excellent flexibility in the likes of Goddard, Fisher, Gilbert etc even R Clarke if he can put it together has the size/speed to do a different role....and IMO Kosi has to become a truly good second ruck option with less time fwd......its time we found another foil for Roo that also can add defensive pressure to stop the rebounding scores. Kos can still pinch hit there...but for mine thats gotta be less....

and did I say FFS mids kick a goal!

agree with all of that

[Moccha]

ditto above

[ChicagoSaint]

agree with the above although the thing is and here's the kicker kosi has become an excellent setshot.
he just doesn't take "enough" of a volume of marks inside 50.
i'd love to see someone assist the big kozz.

[Dr Spaceman]

agree with the above although the thing is and here's the kicker kosi has become an excellent setshot.
he just doesn't take "enough" of a volume of marks inside 50.
i'd love to see someone assist the big kozz.

Leaving aside all the waffle that goes on here about Kozi, IMO he has ALWAYS been an excellent setshot.

[ChicagoSaint]

agree with the above although the thing is and here's the kicker kosi has become an excellent setshot.
he just doesn't take "enough" of a volume of marks inside 50.
i'd love to see someone assist the big kozz.

Leaving aside all the waffle that goes on here about Kozi, IMO he has ALWAYS been an excellent setshot.

after his re-education by LT his action is now just so pure.