The New Structure

[gringo]

I still feel that Ross knows we need another dimention to the forward line, just can't seem to get the structure to cover the backline.

Raph back means that Gilbert or Fisher can go forward. Gwilt went back but when Raph didn't play we couldn't free up one of those guys. Not to mention missing Rooey.

I think Fisher would actually be a better forward than Gilbert- he is a stromg mark and a goal kicker besides, gilberts backline run is going to be a big loss to cover.

Another elite mid would be nice so Schnieder can play closer to goal, he is more dangerous when forward.

[saint patrick]

I would prefer to see Fisher and Gilbert stay back as their run is critical and times 2 is harder to shut down.

Why not play Raph forward or a least on a wing..still worrys me down back at times where his decision making can be costly.

[St. Luke]

You look at the list with a few tweaks here and there and it's very appealing!

You can honestly think we're a deadset show again next year looking at it all!

We're certainly not finished with! The window is well and truly open imho!

[SaintPav]

You look at the list with a few tweaks here and there and it's very appealing!

You can honestly think we're a deadset show again next year looking at it all!

We're certainly not finished with! The window is well and truly open imho!

agree. we can go again.

[markp]

You look at the list with a few tweaks here and there and it's very appealing!

You can honestly think we're a deadset show again next year looking at it all!

We're certainly not finished with! The window is well and truly open imho!

It could well be the filth and us, then daylight next year.

The sickening side of that is the prospect of another loss in a GF to them... I could not deal with that.

But, natural development of our youngsters is all that may be required.

I'm not ready to saddle up again just yet... but I'm sure in 6 months time I'll be raring to go and buoyant about our chances.

I reckon we've got two more shots.

[Brisvegas saint]

You look at the list with a few tweaks here and there and it's very appealing!

You can honestly think we're a deadset show again next year looking at it all!

We're certainly not finished with! The window is well and truly open imho!

It could well be the filth and us, then daylight next year.

The sickening side of that is the prospect of another loss in a GF to them... I could not deal with that.

But, natural development of our youngsters is all that may be required.

I'm not ready to saddle up again just yet... but I'm sure in 6 months time I'll be raring to go and buoyant about our chances.

I reckon we've got two more shots.

Think we should have traded more aggressively. No reason to suppose that the pies' youngsters won't have similar natural development to our own, and they traded well to get two players who will (IMHO) slot straight into their best 22. I'm a bit worried about next year, it might be Pies <daylight> us.

[bigcarl]

But, natural development of our youngsters is all that may be required.

... and a few tweaks to the gameplan. faster movement of the ball, a more attacking mindset and a commitment to scoreboard pressure as well as defensive pressure.

[samoht]

We're certainly not finished .. but we may have to accept finishing second best 3 years running.

It'll take more than tweaking game plans.

Collingwood matches our back line - maybe even has a better attacking half back line in Shaw,Thomas and O' Brien and has a deeper and therefore better midfield that can contribute goals and help out their average forward line (their forward 6 is no better than ours) - so Collingwood do nevertheless end up with a better goal spread and will kick more goals/match.

So they have an equally good backline , a better midfield with a good blending of youth, and a more productive set up (not necessarily a better forward 6) that gives them an extra 3 or 4 goals a match.

One thing we need to get right..
We can't take 3 smalls into the next final series... McQualter, Schneider and Milne are 2 smalls too many and if Steven comes into the side it'd be 3 too many... we need some stronger, taller mid sized players and we need them yesterday... finding/developing them in time for next year - with our window barely open an inch - is another thing.

[spert]

There are things from coaching to players that need adusting to win a flag. RL is a very good coach but has milked the last drop out of the defensive game to the point of making natural attacking players into defensive players who wont take a chance. Our forward line has failed in two GFs in two consecutive seasons. Kosi and Milne have failed on both occasions which effectively means two forwards out of six down, Roo has done little either, so there's CHF, FF and specialist goal sneak not inputting. How to fix? Even though he can run all day, probably Roo at FF for more agility and second efforts and Goddard at CHF, he can hold that position down. Quite frankly, Milne and Kosi wont contribute to a premiership and I can't see a place for either.

[samoht]

There are things from coaching to players that need adusting to win a flag. RL is a very good coach but has milked the last drop out of the defensive game to the point of making natural attacking players into defensive players who wont take a chance. Our forward line has failed in two GFs in two consecutive seasons. Kosi and Milne have failed on both occasions which effectively means two forwards out of six down, Roo has done little either, so there's CHF, FF and specialist goal sneak not inputting. How to fix? Even though he can run all day, probably Roo at FF for more agility and second efforts and Goddard at CHF, he can hold that position down. Quite frankly, Milne and Kosi wont contribute to a premiership and I can't see a place for either.

That's a difficult call with Goddard ..we lack the necessary midfield support for Hayes as it is, to compete with Collingwood.
In his versatile present role where Goddard is gathering 30 possessions - that's 30 less possessions that Collingwood can win... and he's still kicking his occasional goals plus preventing the opposition from scoring against us.

Roo is inputting as much as any focal CHF target can against 2 and 3 defenders...sides know once he's taken out of the equation that's the end of our chances of kicking more than 10 goals.
Roo needs support... the fact he's still getting 8-10 marks per match and his 16-20 possessions vs 2 and 3 opponents often and under extreme pressure is an amazing effort.

We need medium sized goal kickers and decoys and another mobile quick, tall target .. I agree Kosi's role as a permanent forward needs to be rethought maybe a ruck role suits him better ? - and Stanley even Walsh would move and tackle better in the forward line and probably kick as many goals right now ?

hopefully Walsh has a full preseason and develops in leaps and bounds this year.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

All this talk of changing what we do... if it's good enough to get you there, it's good enough when you're there.

It's not like there are different rules on Grand Final day. It's the same basic tenets: score more than the other team across 4 quarters, you win.

Frankly, while coaching/structure is not irrelevant to what's happened, St Kilda needs the players to play better on Grand Final day. Main guys as well. As Paul Roos pointed out, few St Kilda players played up to their ability. Where that's the case, all the list management, and all the game day tactics in the world, applied to the best gameplan in history are not going to get it done.

All the managers can do is set the patterns. The specifics are up to the guys on the ground, and for 2 years running, it's the specifics that have gotten us. The patterns are fine. They will be tweaked, but there is no need for fundamental and wholesale changes.

[saintsRrising]

Our basic gameplan is fine...but it does need some tweaking and thought.....and particular for when we run up against:

* ultra-attacking teams. Was not that big an issue in 2010 simply as those teams were not Top 4

* those teams who like the Saints are capable of deploying solid defensive structures and press well. When this occured in 2010 we struggled.

IMO part of this can be addressed by changing some of our personnel.

[samoht]

The other thing we have to contend with is - it's a damn long season playing all those games on the unforgiving and hard surface at Etihad.

I think that in 2011 there's a chance that 12 games will secure a top 4 spot - with the Bullies and the Cats falling back - and if it's panning out that way we should try to rest players whenever posssible.

Lose four of the last games in a row and go into the finals with a 12-10 season if needs be in order to rest all our star players.

Maybe break the season down into 4 parts .. with regular resting of players at each of the four stages ... and maybe restrict the maximum Etihad games to 8 per player.

[plugger66]

The other thing we have to contend with is - it's a damn long season playing all those games on the unforgiving and hard surface at Etihad.

I think that in 2011 there's a chance that 12 games will secure a top 4 spot - with the Bullies and the Cats falling back - and if it's panning out that way we should try to rest players whenever posssible.

Lose four of the last games in a row and go into the finals with a 12-10 season if needs be in order to rest all our star players.

Maybe break the season down into 4 parts .. with regular resting of players at each of the four stages ... and maybe restrict the maximum Etihad games to 8 per player.

How could 12 wins get a top 4 spot. I think that would just about be impossible. Any resting players IMO is stupid especially for no reason at all.

[samoht]

How could 12 wins get a top 4 spot. I think that would just about be impossible. Any resting players IMO is stupid especially for no reason at all.

I said there's a chance it could happen (and i think a reasonably good chance maybe 50/50) .. not that it will definitely happen.
I just feel next year there will be 1 dominant team in Collingwood and with the Cats and arguably the Bullies falling back into the pack and other teams perhaps improving .. there will be a lot of tight games... perhaps more so than in other years.

.. in 1997, 2002 and 2008 - 13 wins earned a 4th spot

I just feel next year might be the tightest year yet.

and I see there is a reason to rest players - it's not for no reason at all - and if we could we should - as 11 games at Etihad is probably 3 games too many .. and if we did rest them at the right times - perhaps Dal , Gram, Jones may have otherwise been fit for this year's GF2.

[borderbarry]

Looking at our problems from another angle.... Which players have the worse disposal? Jones is not up to AFL standard let alone Premiership material. Gilbert has length in his kicking, but accuracy and awareness are appalling. Dempster is far too slow in his decision making. Riewoldt's accuracy was poor in the Grand Final when it counted. McQualter, Peake, Baker and Kosi just dont get enough of it. Our defence was found to be too slow in the GF. Our midfield relies too much on Lenny. Our rucks were trounced. Our forward line is a joke. Virtually one man.
Our problems are not going to be solved just by dropping 2 or 3 players and introducing a couple of younger players.
Not enough changes were made between the two GFs. We are too slow to bring in young players. This must change.

[gringo]

You look like you have thrown in the towel if you make wholesale changes in the GF specially with guys that have not played 20 games yet.

I think Gilbert will see a lot more forward line duty this year. He has the defensive abilities to tackle and pressure and can mark and spread and besides GF2 he can kick a goal when he is under pressure. He is like a taller more aggressive Mini.

It will be nice watching him chase down and tackle with those big Rugby style shoulder poppers then going back and slotting the goal.

[SainterK]

Not enough changes were made between the two GFs. We are too slow to bring in young players. This must change.

They were injured for much of the year though Barry, especially late.

Not only were Gram, Dal, Eddy injured in the finals series....it doesn't help that Steven, Geary, Armo and the likes struggled with their own around that time.