Ross Lyon is a flawed genius

[Waltzing St Kilda]

You could easily argue that Ross Lyon is our second most successful coach ever. He's an exceptional tactician and motivator. His effort in holding the Saints together during this most testing of years, and almost stealing a premiership, deserve enormous credit.

But ... it's on days like this that his flaws are writ large.

And those flaws come down to a certain inflexibility, almost blind faith, in players who don't warrant a regular game. So while he's been ruthless with players like Hudghton and Ball (and others like Shane Birss), he continues to put his faith in quintessential battlers like Eddy, McQualter and Kosi -- not to mention draft-horses like Dempster -- at the expense of rising talent like Miles, Stanley, Steven and Armitage.

The Pies, to their credit, put game-time into the likes of Blair and McAffer while downgrading GOPs like Lockyer, Jack Anthony and Josh Fraser.

But Lyon -- as if to personify the defensive mindset he's brought to the club -- refused, defiantly, to buckle under outside pressure. In fact, the more his bottom six were questioned, the more unlikely it became that he'd ever drop them.

Sure, there were very few good Saints players today -- even the cream was sour -- but it seems to me we'll never get a flag with our existing scattering of lumbering oafs and unskilled hacks.

It's time to refresh. It's time for Ross Lyon to listen to outside wisdom.

[bobmurray]

You could easily argue that Ross Lyon is our second most successful coach ever. He's an exceptional tactician and motivator. His effort in holding the Saints together during this most testing of years, and almost stealing a premiership, deserve enormous credit.

But ... it's on days like this that his flaws are writ large.

And those flaws come down to a certain inflexibility, almost blind faith, in players who don't warrant a regular game. So while he's been ruthless with players like Hudghton and Ball (and others like Shane Birss), he continues to put his faith in quintessential battlers like Eddy, McQualter and Kosi -- not to mention draft-horses like Dempster -- at the expense of rising talent like Miles, Stanley, Steven and Armitage.

The Pies, to their credit, put game-time into the likes of Blair and McAffer while downgrading GOPs like Lockyer, Jack Anthony and Josh Fraser.

But Lyon -- as if to personify the defensive mindset he's brought to the club -- refused, defiantly, to buckle under outside pressure. In fact, the more his bottom six were questioned, the more unlikely it became that he'd ever drop them.

Sure, there were very few good Saints players today -- even the cream was sour -- but it seems to me we'll never get a flag with our existing scattering of lumbering oafs and unskilled hacks.

It's time to refresh. It's time for Ross Lyon to listen to outside wisdom.

I'd have to agree with all of that....well said

[Bernard Shakey]

Time to be fair dinkum about blooding the likes of Lynch, Heyne, Stanley, Smith, Miles, Walsh, Steven and Armitage (if he's still with us).

We probably need to go back to go forward.

[DWOODROW]

I doubt any of the above will happen. Lyon is too focused on using the players HE thinks will get the job done

[Longwayfromhome]

Sack the bastard.
Banger for coach 2011.
Hang on for a minute. Don't sack the coach. Sack Kosi and every other useless piece of s*** that let us down today.
Time to make the supporter King. If you can't cut the mustard. Piss off.

[FortiusQuoFidelius]

I doubt any of the above will happen. Lyon is too focused on using the players HE thinks will get the job done

Well, he has a right to... after all he is the senior coach.

[DWOODROW]

I doubt any of the above will happen. Lyon is too focused on using the players HE thinks will get the job done

Well, he has a right to... after all he is the senior coach.

Having the right to and doing it are two different things

[Bernard Shakey]

I doubt any of the above will happen. Lyon is too focused on using the players HE thinks will get the job done

Well, he has a right to... after all he is the senior coach.

Having the right to and doing it are two different things

No they're not.

[saintsRrising]

It's time to refresh. It's time for Ross Lyon to listen to outside wisdom.

100% disagree...in terms of how you mean it....


Outside Wisdom..it is pretty clear he seeks it, and uses it. Misson, Tudor, Moneyball etc etc...but yes at the end of the day he then sets the direction.

Lyon did enough to get us into two GF in consecutive years....and was within a bees dicks of winning two flags.

Lyon will refresh in gameplan and in players...

* Every year he has been there the gameplan has changed in some way..

* Every year he has been there the playing list has changed...


2011... our best 22 will be different...and the gameplan will be altered. Bank on both.

[eppo67]

I doubt any of the above will happen. Lyon is too focused on using the players HE thinks will get the job done

I hear you. I feel for your brother he may well go down the same path as Ball and who could blame him. I also agree with the subject post Ross shows blind faith in Eddy/Mini. How many other AFL teams would these 2 get a game at. I cant think of any.

[DWOODROW]

I doubt any of the above will happen. Lyon is too focused on using the players HE thinks will get the job done

Well, he has a right to... after all he is the senior coach.

Having the right to and doing it are two different things

No they're not.

No they are not. My misunderstanding. But will ther be a vast amount of changes. I doubt it.

[perfectionist]

Time to be fair dinkum about blooding the likes of Lynch, Heyne, Stanley, Smith, Miles, Walsh, Steven and Armitage (if he's still with us)....

While Smith & Walsh didn't play, the rest did. Heyne is no good. Lynch "looks " OK, but will need another 30 games to learn where the ball is, Miles could be a OK, at least in a 100m sprint, Steven is no good - he can't run (takes baby steps), can't kick more than 30 metres, but can kick both feet and can't mark overhead. Armitage was the real disappointment this year. He was given every chance with 9 games but finished up playing a pale imitation of Luke Ball's role without the skill. No doubting his endeavour. Stanley will take time like all big players, but I would have played him today, and asked him the tag Maxwell and test him for pace.

Also, the OP is way too harsh on the coaching panel.

Round 16 showed that Collingwood was significantly ahead of us in terms of skill and the ability to win the ball from clearances. However, we can now recognise just how brilliant our tactics and match ups were last week, almost resulting in a flag. However, such things can really only be pulled off once, at least within a two week period. They now knew what we had planned, and their tactics and match ups today were superior. Their higher skill level proved decisive as well. For two minutes last week, we dreamed, and today it turned into a nightmare.

[battye]

I doubt any of the above will happen. Lyon is too focused on using the players HE thinks will get the job done

Well, he has a right to... after all he is the senior coach.

And he's not far off the mark. He's been able to get us to the Grand Final two years running with the players he thinks will get the job done.

My feeling is, yes changes do need to happen. I think we need to have a more attacking component to our game plan and as a result this may mean taking a look at how we utilise our "defensive forward" type players, whether they can play a different role, or whether we have other players that could play an attacking role better.

[saintsRrising]

. I also agree with the subject post Ross shows blind faith in Eddy/Mini. .

I think Mini will be on the outer next year as well.

However Ross had supposed "blind faith" in Zac as well and Zac hada very good finals series.


Lyon needs to evolve for 2011 and I am 100% confident that he would have.


While I realy really like Smith, Stanley, Miles, Steven and Armo.....most likely in they all were being played late in 2010 we would have been bounced out of the finals real quick.

We had our best shot at it 2010....and in 2011 we will give it another rack with an evolved team and tactics.

[eppo67]

Time to be fair dinkum about blooding the likes of Lynch, Heyne, Stanley, Smith, Miles, Walsh, Steven and Armitage (if he's still with us)....

While Smith & Walsh didn't play, the rest did. Heyne is no good. Lynch "looks " OK, but will need another 30 games to learn where the ball is, Miles could be a OK, at least in a 100m sprint, Steven is no good - he can't run (takes baby steps), can't kick more than 30 metres, but can kick both feet and can't mark overhead. Armitage was the real disappointment this year. He was given every chance with 9 games but finished up playing a pale imitation of Luke Ball's role without the skill. No doubting his endeavour. Stanley will take time like all big players, but I would have played him today, and asked him the tag Maxwell and test him for pace.

Also, the OP is way too harsh on the coaching panel.

Round 16 showed that Collingwood was significantly ahead of us in terms of skill and the ability to win the ball from clearances. However, we can now recognise just how brilliant our tactics and match ups were last week, almost resulting in a flag. However, such things can really only be pulled off once, at least within a two week period. They now knew what we had planned, and their tactics and match ups today were superior. Their higher skill level proved decisive as well. For two minutes last week, we dreamed, and today it turned into a nightmare.

A bit harsh aren't we. Most of those players you mentioned are lucky to be 20 years old. I remember people of this forum bagging Gwilt over the last couple of years. Look at him now. He had a break out year 2010. He turned 24 in August.

Lyon was just quoted on AFL.Com as saying the youth will get more opportunities next year.

[felixleo]

Ross has resolutely stuck by his game plan of structure and tactics which has got us into three grand finals. It has nearly won us two flags. To dispute his methodology is ridiculous because with the players he has had at his disposal, I think he has actually overachieved. Todays game imo has really brought into focus that a really well drilled even team instead of a well drilled team with a few outstanding players and some below par will be victorious. Nearly got us a flag last year and just missed last week. As much as it hurts congrats to the woods well played but we will be back next year.

[saintsRrising]

Ross has resolutely stuck by his game plan of structure and tactics which has got us into three grand finals. It has nearly won us two flags. To dispute his methodology is ridiculous because with the players he has had at his disposal, I think he has actually overachieved. .

This.

[meher baba]

. I also agree with the subject post Ross shows blind faith in Eddy/Mini. .

I think Mini will be on the outer next year as well.

However Ross had supposed "blind faith" in Zac as well and Zac hada very good finals series.


Lyon needs to evolve for 2011 and I am 100% confident that he would have.

While I realy really like Smith, Stanley, Miles, Steven and Armo.....most likely in they all were being played late in 2010 we would have been bounced out of the finals real quick.

We had our best shot at it 2010....and in 2011 we will give it another rack with an evolved team and tactics.

It's sweet to see how much you love the guy, sRr, but the truth is that our coach had a shocker today. He seemed compacent: he made no effort to vary his tactics from last week, his pet players (Eddy, Dempster, Jones) were all found wanting, etc.

Sure, established stars like Kosi, Riewoldt Gram and Joey should alos hang their heads in shame. And, sure, we don't have much pressure coming from younger or fringe players. And why is that? At least partly because they aren't being developed.

Contrast that with the Pies who have young up and coming player to burn. And, where they have gone for recycled players, they've gotten blokes who've made a real difference.....

[Grievous]

2011... our best 22 will be different...and the gameplan will be altered. Bank on both.

I agree 100%. Well said- I think you've got me out of my rut a little.

[widereceiver]

Suck it up princesses and don't shoot the messenger. He's achieved a lot and who among us would have said ...
All Australian #11 would do nuthin'
Our captain #12 would do next to nuthin' for the 3rd. Grand Final in a row.
Why pick on the numties on the list? We don't have any depth, though I would have picked Geary before Eddy, any day or any night.

and would you all please shut up about David Armitage, he is a non-event.

Perhaps you want some blood-letting like we had with our last coach who got us to a grand final...

SUCK IT UP PRINCESSES, WE WEREN'T GOOD ENOUGH!

[eppo67]

2011... our best 22 will be different...and the gameplan will be altered. Bank on both.

If you read what Lyon is saying already this sounds very likely.

[battye]

2011... our best 22 will be different...and the gameplan will be altered. Bank on both.

If you read what Lyon is saying already this sounds very likely.

What has he said already?

[widereceiver]

Suck it up princesses and don't shoot the messenger. He's achieved a lot and who among us would have said ...
All Australian #11 would do nuthin'
Our captain #12 would do next to nuthin' for the 3rd. Grand Final in a row.
Why pick on the numties on the list? We don't have any depth, though I would have picked Geary before Eddy, any day or any night.

and would you all please shut up about David Armitage, he is a non-event.

Perhaps you want some blood-letting like we had with our last coach who got us to a grand final...

SUCK IT UP PRINCESSES, WE WEREN'T GOOD ENOUGH!

[borderbarry]

Jasr week Lyon put Gilbert to the HF line after half time with good results. Today he put him there earlier and it paid off again, but all we got were behinds/

[eppo67]

"Clearly our skill level needs to get better, we need to find some talent and we need to tighten up our system," he said, adding youth already at the club would be given more opportunities.

On AFL.COM