List Raiding
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- diddley
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List Raiding
I have been thinking about the Tom Boyd trade a few years ago. At the time, it seemed like an impossible trade. The dogs wanted something badly enough, that they gave up their #6 pick and their captain, even though the giants were adement they were not going to let Boyd go. Boyd was even contracted at the time, so the giants really held every card. The dogs had to give them one of their kidneys to make sure they got it done.
So, with the free agency and uncontracted pools fairly empty of elite and A grade talent, is it worth trying to raid a teams players list for what we want and need.
We have the arsenal to get it, and the money. But do we have the persuasion to convince the player and their current club to do so. It would mean we would need to lose something we think we want, to get something we actually need.
If we were to take this approach, who would we target, and which of our kidneys would we lose to get it done.
So, with the free agency and uncontracted pools fairly empty of elite and A grade talent, is it worth trying to raid a teams players list for what we want and need.
We have the arsenal to get it, and the money. But do we have the persuasion to convince the player and their current club to do so. It would mean we would need to lose something we think we want, to get something we actually need.
If we were to take this approach, who would we target, and which of our kidneys would we lose to get it done.
- saintsRrising
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Re: List Raiding
The Tom Boyd Trade is not really a good example of what to follow.
They paid overs and on the whole he has not delivered, and in particular he has not delivered as the gun key forward that he was recruited as.
Also the GWS then had more good quality Key Position Forwards than they could play in the one team, and probably still do despite Boyd and McCarthy both moving on. So GWS could afford to offload Boyd who if he had of stayed would have played little football in their firsts.
Yes he had an excellent GF match, which is the game that counts the most, BUT not in the key forward role that he was recruited for, but as a ruck/forward on a day when the opposition had no good ruckman.
So as it stands he is not just an overpriced recruit, but by far the most expensive "ruck/forward"in the land. A position that one normally gravitates to when the player is not good enough either as a key forward or No 1 ruck.
Bottom line seems to be very much that good players do not swap clubs just for money. There needs to be a reason. ie Carlisle wanted out of the Bombers. Hamill blued with the Carlton President etc.
No more Judd VISY Ambassadorships allowed and the AFL is not going to give a player we want a huge marketing top up like the Suns gained for Gablett.
We are not a destination club and so to pay overs would probably do more harm than good. Also getting just the one player, even if it was for example a player such as a Kelly, or a Martin, would make the difference and moreso if we have to lose say Steven and Billings to get the deal done.
I know that many turn up there nose at players like Stringer. But I would look at him and if he passes our tests then you get him for unders, rather than way overs.
Mitchell was available last year because he wanted to move and was out of contract and the Hawks got him for unders. JOM they obviously took a huge punt on and paid overs due the deal with us.
In terms of prizing players loose I think a better tack will be to ask is there anyone emerging who cannot get regular games as others are in front of them at their clubs. With Kelly stating, Whitfield extending the $$$ pressure there must be huge on their salary cap and so someone else like Steele will be shaken loose.
They paid overs and on the whole he has not delivered, and in particular he has not delivered as the gun key forward that he was recruited as.
Also the GWS then had more good quality Key Position Forwards than they could play in the one team, and probably still do despite Boyd and McCarthy both moving on. So GWS could afford to offload Boyd who if he had of stayed would have played little football in their firsts.
Yes he had an excellent GF match, which is the game that counts the most, BUT not in the key forward role that he was recruited for, but as a ruck/forward on a day when the opposition had no good ruckman.
So as it stands he is not just an overpriced recruit, but by far the most expensive "ruck/forward"in the land. A position that one normally gravitates to when the player is not good enough either as a key forward or No 1 ruck.
Well so far this year the answer is no we do not as the Big Fish said no. So if generous offers do not work, only the ridiculous will.diddley wrote: So, with the free agency and uncontracted pools fairly empty of elite and A grade talent, is it worth trying to raid a teams players list for what we want and need.
We have the arsenal to get it, and the money.
Bottom line seems to be very much that good players do not swap clubs just for money. There needs to be a reason. ie Carlisle wanted out of the Bombers. Hamill blued with the Carlton President etc.
No more Judd VISY Ambassadorships allowed and the AFL is not going to give a player we want a huge marketing top up like the Suns gained for Gablett.
Well that is the problem. Moreso now as virtually all the guns are contracted and so you would have to pay their clubs overs. There is Rocky, but he is not elite, is not young, and as virtually the only decent FA left stading now if he does leave the Lions will gain an obers contract. Is Rocky worth it? IMO only if we know we are getting other good ready to play players next year as well. Otherwise draft kids or players 26 and under so that we can continue to build the quality of this group of players that we do have who are 26 or younger.diddley wrote: But do we have the persuasion to convince the player and their current club to do so. It would mean we would need to lose something we think we want, to get something we actually need.
If we were to take this approach, who would we target, and which of our kidneys would we lose to get it done.
We are not a destination club and so to pay overs would probably do more harm than good. Also getting just the one player, even if it was for example a player such as a Kelly, or a Martin, would make the difference and moreso if we have to lose say Steven and Billings to get the deal done.
I know that many turn up there nose at players like Stringer. But I would look at him and if he passes our tests then you get him for unders, rather than way overs.
Mitchell was available last year because he wanted to move and was out of contract and the Hawks got him for unders. JOM they obviously took a huge punt on and paid overs due the deal with us.
In terms of prizing players loose I think a better tack will be to ask is there anyone emerging who cannot get regular games as others are in front of them at their clubs. With Kelly stating, Whitfield extending the $$$ pressure there must be huge on their salary cap and so someone else like Steele will be shaken loose.
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Re: List Raiding
I'd rather be tomb raiding
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“If we are going to be a contender, we may as well plan to win the bloody thing.”
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- The Fireman
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Re: List Raiding
time to bite the bullet,create an environment that will improve the kids we have, use our picks on new kids and hope we get a champ , all the good prospects from other clubs have resigned.
time to do the hard yards again.
time to do the hard yards again.
- GregPackhamsHeadband
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Re: List Raiding
No one has done more hard yards than saints supporters. We're now five years into our latest rebuild. Again. How much more do we put up with to see a modicum of success? Saints fans have every right to be disappointed and angry. Pelchen and his spreadsheet, Watters and his juggernaut, another rebuild, now the "nicest" collection of people to ever run the club. A recruiting team that is a bumbling group of Clouseaux who couldn't find a clown in a circus, let alone a champion in the draft.The Fireman wrote:time to bite the bullet,create an environment that will improve the kids we have, use our picks on new kids and hope we get a champ , all the good prospects from other clubs have resigned.
time to do the hard yards again.
We are the Charlie Browns of the comp. No wonder we have only 42,000 members. Who else would put up with as much s***, incompetence and bad luck as saints supporters? I've already renewed my membership, but my motive is I've put up with so much I may as well hang in there until death. Young members and supporters may not be as patient. If we are being totally realistic, we're as far away as ever.
I think you're pretty tough, don't I?
- The Fireman
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Re: List Raiding
i'm over bandaid solutionsGregPackhamsHeadband wrote:No one has done more hard yards than saints supporters. We're now five years into our latest rebuild. Again. How much more do we put up with to see a modicum of success? Saints fans have every right to be disappointed and angry. Pelchen and his spreadsheet, Watters and his juggernaut, another rebuild, now the "nicest" collection of people to ever run the club. A recruiting team that is a bumbling group of Clouseaux who couldn't find a clown in a circus, let alone a champion in the draft.The Fireman wrote:time to bite the bullet,create an environment that will improve the kids we have, use our picks on new kids and hope we get a champ , all the good prospects from other clubs have resigned.
time to do the hard yards again.
We are the Charlie Browns of the comp. No wonder we have only 42,000 members. Who else would put up with as much s***, incompetence and bad luck as saints supporters? I've already renewed my membership, but my motive is I've put up with so much I may as well hang in there until death. Young members and supporters may not be as patient. If we are being totally realistic, we're as far away as ever.
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Re: List Raiding
Not the Saints fault they couldn't land a big fish this season,,, the pool of fish was shallow and no one wanted to leave. As I've said many times before it's rare that a big player leaves unles HE WANTS TO .... FFS Norf offered way over the odds for Kelly .. about 10 million for nine years and he did not leave ,, none of them did .GregPackhamsHeadband wrote:No one has done more hard yards than saints supporters. We're now five years into our latest rebuild. Again. How much more do we put up with to see a modicum of success? Saints fans have every right to be disappointed and angry. Pelchen and his spreadsheet, Watters and his juggernaut, another rebuild, now the "nicest" collection of people to ever run the club. A recruiting team that is a bumbling group of Clouseaux who couldn't find a clown in a circus, let alone a champion in the draft.The Fireman wrote:time to bite the bullet,create an environment that will improve the kids we have, use our picks on new kids and hope we get a champ , all the good prospects from other clubs have resigned.
time to do the hard yards again.
We are the Charlie Browns of the comp. No wonder we have only 42,000 members. Who else would put up with as much s***, incompetence and bad luck as saints supporters? I've already renewed my membership, but my motive is I've put up with so much I may as well hang in there until death. Young members and supporters may not be as patient. If we are being totally realistic, we're as far away as ever.
This isn't a bang on the Saints ( though you seem to make it their fault) I guess if they offered 3 million a season and got him you u would have been happy
As far as I'm concerened we were being pushed in offering overs , and I'm not convinced there is a gun messiah..
I think that we are on the verge of several of our youngsters becoming at least A grade And possibly elite...
Kelly only signed for two years and it's more than possible he will want to relocate back to Melbourne then.
I suppose you would be happy and do a dogs job , like they did at Tom Boyd , it's nearly wrecked the club despite winning the grand final because all the other players they are paying a million and a half ( including inducements for a guy who's certainly not worth it. yes he played really well in the grand final as a ruck forward against a side of hat didn't have a good ruck-man
Were on the verge with the majority of our youngsters about to enter the 4-5 pre sessions and 49 plus games, we could have several breakouts this year
IMO there's not much a club can do if players don't want to move , believe it or not
And the president said " I did not have sex with that woman"
And our former president said " Football is like golf"
Go Sainters !!!!!
And our former president said " Football is like golf"
Go Sainters !!!!!
- GregPackhamsHeadband
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Re: List Raiding
I'd be happy to "wreck" the club for a flag, as would every saints supporter. The club hasn't been wrecked for 51 years? What colour is the sun in your world?
I think you're pretty tough, don't I?
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Re: List Raiding
It rises every morningGregPackhamsHeadband wrote:I'd be happy to "wreck" the club for a flag, as would every saints supporter. The club hasn't been wrecked for 51 years? What colour is the sun in your world?
![Cool 8-)](./images/smilies/icon_cool.gif)
And the president said " I did not have sex with that woman"
And our former president said " Football is like golf"
Go Sainters !!!!!
And our former president said " Football is like golf"
Go Sainters !!!!!
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Re: List Raiding
Mmm should be "can't" disagree and "Holy grail"
And the president said " I did not have sex with that woman"
And our former president said " Football is like golf"
Go Sainters !!!!!
And our former president said " Football is like golf"
Go Sainters !!!!!
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Re: List Raiding
The club is so poor at developing drafted players,
it's better to grab an already developed one.
Before u bang on about Gresh, Blake, Seb- they're the exceptions
and most of our young picks end up in nowhere-land.
it's better to grab an already developed one.
Before u bang on about Gresh, Blake, Seb- they're the exceptions
and most of our young picks end up in nowhere-land.
2020 was an aberration, when we travelled twice to Adelaide and won both, beat Tigers early, beat our bogey Swans. 2021 we've returned to our old ways. Damn
- Con Gorozidis
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Re: List Raiding
We need to beef up recruitment and development.
There is no short cut.
You can't trade your way to a flag.
Trading is useful as a complement but should never be considered a substitute for the core business of recruitment and development. It is icing on cake. Not the cake.
If we keep Elshaugh on out of loyalty or because of the 'good bloke' factor then let's give him outside resources and hire some consultants to help him during drafting time.
There is no short cut.
You can't trade your way to a flag.
Trading is useful as a complement but should never be considered a substitute for the core business of recruitment and development. It is icing on cake. Not the cake.
If we keep Elshaugh on out of loyalty or because of the 'good bloke' factor then let's give him outside resources and hire some consultants to help him during drafting time.
- GregPackhamsHeadband
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Re: List Raiding
Stop being so sensible, ss. You have a very annoying habit of being the voice of logic and reason, when all we want, as rabid, irrational, emotionally over invested saints fans is one farking flag! Is that too much to ask? A Pyrrhic victory will do me just fine. You're like my darling wife. Her nickname is "sensible Ruth". She drives me and her siblings nuts by raining on our irrational and blue skying ideas. Then again, without her, I'd probably be broke. You're not an accountant, are you? Mine has just retired and I need someone to keep me under control. CV please.supersaints wrote:It rises every morningGregPackhamsHeadband wrote:I'd be happy to "wreck" the club for a flag, as would every saints supporter. The club hasn't been wrecked for 51 years? What colour is the sun in your world?.. I don't think Boyd is the messiah forward for the Dogs by a long way... I ant disagree with you I'd like to win a flag as much as anyone , but the point I'm trying to make ( not very well ) is I'd hope we don't make decisions like Gordon did and wreck the playing list by unbalancing the player payments. I don't think it's necessary... because if we did and we missed the boy grail we'd be back down the bottom for decades
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I think you're pretty tough, don't I?
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Re: List Raiding
'Pyrrhic' - love it!GregPackhamsHeadband wrote:Stop being so sensible, ss. You have a very annoying habit of being the voice of logic and reason, when all we want, as rabid, irrational, emotionally over invested saints fans is one farking flag! Is that too much to ask? A Pyrrhic victory will do me just fine. You're like my darling wife. Her nickname is "sensible Ruth". She drives me and her siblings nuts by raining on our irrational and blue skying ideas. Then again, without her, I'd probably be broke. You're not an accountant, are you? Mine has just retired and I need someone to keep me under control. CV please.supersaints wrote:It rises every morningGregPackhamsHeadband wrote:I'd be happy to "wreck" the club for a flag, as would every saints supporter. The club hasn't been wrecked for 51 years? What colour is the sun in your world?.. I don't think Boyd is the messiah forward for the Dogs by a long way... I ant disagree with you I'd like to win a flag as much as anyone , but the point I'm trying to make ( not very well ) is I'd hope we don't make decisions like Gordon did and wreck the playing list by unbalancing the player payments. I don't think it's necessary... because if we did and we missed the boy grail we'd be back down the bottom for decades
For those not wanting to do a google search, allow me (a keen student of ancient Greek history) to explain.
It refers to a battle between 300 Spartans and 10,000 Persians- I think it was called 'Thermopylae'
Where the Spartans were surrounded and set fire to the entire forest, killing the enemy- but the Spartans died too.
So the Spartans 'won'- well, they didn't lose, anyway!
It's a win where the cost of the win is ultimately fatal
2020 was an aberration, when we travelled twice to Adelaide and won both, beat Tigers early, beat our bogey Swans. 2021 we've returned to our old ways. Damn
- saintsRrising
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Re: List Raiding
I agree that there is no shortcut. But to ignore trades as part of our list management would be foolish.Con Gorozidis wrote:We need to beef up recruitment and development.
There is no short cut..
North did.Con Gorozidis wrote: You can't trade your way to a flag.
.
Blues racked up many.
No way would Hawks have been such a dominant team for so long recently without their aggressive trade strategy.
Saints probably should have in the naughties. and bar for Hamill's and Penny dodgeyy knees that ended their careers prematurely it probably would have.
I fully agree that our drafting of kids is certainly below the best in the AFL, and indeed is probably below average.
And yes our development of players is clearly poor.
You need to trade, draft and develop all well to be Top 4 these days, and to then in turn win flags.
If you go draft and develop only for example by the times this drafts kids are very good, others like Steven, Armo and maybe even Carlisle will be gone or well past their best.
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Re: List Raiding
In the vfl prelim last Sunday where Port Melbourne played Williamstown there were 4 ex-saints players playing (Murdoch, Templeton, Siposs and Dunnell) and none did much as far as I could tell.MickThomas wrote:The club is so poor at developing drafted players,
it's better to grab an already developed one.
Before u bang on about Gresh, Blake, Seb- they're the exceptions
and most of our young picks end up in nowhere-land.
As ex-president Peter Summers said:
“If we are going to be a contender, we may as well plan to win the bloody thing.”
St Kilda - At least we have a Crest!
“If we are going to be a contender, we may as well plan to win the bloody thing.”
St Kilda - At least we have a Crest!