comparisons between the dogs and the saints

[MC Gusto]

are a waste of time. they are better...far better and they have drafted better. it is a bit like last time round only this time the tables have turned - they have the quality

[dragit]

We're basically in a different time zone, I wouldn't get too hung up on who is better in 2015.

The bulk of our midfield hasn't even arrived yet.

[saintsRrising]

are a waste of time. they are better...far better and they have drafted better. it is a bit like last time round only this time the tables have turned - they have the quality

You just contradicted yourself by making a comparison

And yes I agree that the Dogs have, of late, drafted better. They really nailed their pics of Bontempeli and Stringer. Both look likely to become genuine elite players.

If you redid the Billings pick here and now you would go for Bontempelli. who knows who will be better in 3 years though.

You cannot become a Top 4 team unless you can produce some genuine elite players. Jury is still out on whether Billings and McCartin will be, though clearly both have talent.

We have started our rebuild 2 to 3 years after the Dogs. However we so far seem to be lacking get in some genuine cream.

A lot is going to rest on our picks over the next 2 years plus any FA's. So so picks there and will be trouble.

[bigcarl]

They look very, very good. It will hurt if they get their second flag before we do

[gringo]

They are playing incredible footy. The list is a bit older and their kids are showing more early. Bevo is as good as some of us thought. His coaching record is unbelievable. He just takes teams to finals. We could learn a lot from them. They are getting the pressure on and playing hard despite the list being pretty inexperienced.

[gringo]

I meant to add that we should se a few kids steppe by the end of the year. You get several of them doing it and momentum builds.

[Armoooo]

They are looking amazing, don't forget though that they are one draft ahead of us (when they picked up Stringer and MacRae ) it is also handy that they managed to pick up two father son guns the year before that.

having said that though the bulldogs don't seem to be able to miss their early picks at the moment, we need to nail every early pick in a similar fashion.

Bonts is going to be something special but I'm still happy with Billings as I believe he will be a star and I know I wouldn't have taken the chance on Bonts as he really came out of nowhere in his draft year.

[Griggsy]

What's a waste of time is comparing so early.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't there huge debate in football over Goddard and Wells? Who's come out on top?

Here look at some of the comments on this BF thread

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/b ... ls.145746/

Saying the dogs are that far ahead is like calling to winner of a marathon after some guy sprinted the first 200 meters.

[FQF]

Dogs are the new Port

[Bunk_Moreland]

What's a waste of time is comparing so early.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't there huge debate in football over Goddard and Wells? Who's come out on top?

Here look at some of the comments on this BF thread

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/b ... ls.145746/

Saying the dogs are that far ahead is like calling to winner of a marathon after some guy sprinted the first 200 meters.

Bigger over Judd and Hodge. Reckon Hawthorn would not swap Hodge for Judd now in a fit, even though Judd is probably the better player. Hodge is a one team player and brings that X factor to the Hawks that cant be bought or taught.

To be writing off our recruits especially Billings and comparing him to Bont at this moment is ludicrious.

Doggies are two years ahead of us. Lets revisit in 2017

[saintsRrising]

To be writing off our recruits especially Billings

Who exactly has written off Billings?

At any point in time it is valid to make comparisons, which are valid at that time. You can also compare after everyone has retired, who played best in their first 3 seasons...who is a better kick etc.

As I said earlier in this thread who knows where Billings will be rated in latter years. But right here and now if you redid the draft I would go for Bontempeli. Stating that does not mean that I have written off Billings, or that he is a dud. It is just that IMO at present Bontempeli is the better player.

[Bunk_Moreland]

To be writing off our recruits especially Billings

Who exactly has written off Billings?

At any point in time it is valid to make comparisons, which are valid at that time. You can also compare after everyone has retired, who played best in their first 3 seasons...who is a better kick etc.

As I said earlier in this thread who knows where Billings will be rated in latter years. But right here and now if you redid the draft I would go for Bontempeli. Stating that does not mean that I have written off Billings, or that he is a dud. It is just that IMO at present Bontempeli is the better player.

Dont think I was aiming that at you SrR. If you think so, I apologise,it was more a general remark. Probably as I ahve seen these comparisions between players in the past.

[SaintPav]

Dogs are at least two seasons ahead of us plus they have seemed to have already nailed their early draft picks.

Still early but they made some bold moves and at this stage, I would rather be them than us.

[wally]

I think they also have scored a couple of father / sons,although Libba is out.
We were in the" flag moment"which affects draft picks too.

[Con Gorozidis]

Not sure about where we are.
But Dogs look more promising and closer to a flag than sides like the Blues, Tiges and Norf.
Much rather be a Doggies fan than any of those 3.

[Bluthy]

In a weird way, rising quickly the way the dogs are now can be almost detrimental to development. Lets say the dogs finish 9th or 10th this year. Then the media will put huge pressure on them to make finals the next year because that is seen as the next logical development particularly with paying Boyd so much. That brings its own pressures with recruiting (the tendency to bring in more mature players who can get it done straight away) and moving resources into winning games of football (oppo analysis, tactics, less experimentation) rather than development. I think Richmond, Carlton and perhaps even North have sacrificed development because of the pressure of needing to play finals and keep improving in a linear way.

I think we need to brace for another 2 years of hard grind after this one. Its actually what the club has designed by moving on Goddard, Dal Santo, McEvoy, Stanley. I think we'll finish bottom 2 this year and bottom 4 the next two. So that's another 3 top four picks where you have elite talent to go with McCartin and Billings. Plus another 3 twentish picks where you get very good players to go with Dunstan, Acres, Goddard, McKenzie, Longer, Hickey. Plus another 3 picks in the 40ish and below range where it gets a bit iffy but we've done well with Lonie, Sinclair, Eli etc. So suddenly we have some real quality across the board plus sieving through the likes of savage, newness, Delaney, Ross, Bruce, Membrey, White etc to see which of those develop genuine AFL level weaponry.

By being in full on development mode we can put our resources into developing players rather than just winning games of footy. We can have a coach like Peta Searle as development coach. Apparently Richo talks to every single player on the list after selection. If we were challenging for finals could he spend the time doing that? And we've obviously pumped money into bulding up recruting expertise and efficiency that is paying dividends. That makes sense when you have high picks and have traded in for more picks. Some of those resources will get moved out once we start to rise.

Plus the coaches will spend a lot of time with players, building up their confidence and making them feel supported. We've lacked this development environment for a while. To me its no coincidence that the players recruited in the last couple of years are breaking into AFL quickly. They are getting the support and development like children coming from a good family with supporting and encouraging parents (coaches) building up their self belief and becoming self actualising players.

We are building a foundation and have to be patient as we keep pouring the concrete. Its a really tricky balancing act because the pressure on membership and finances from being bottom takes its toll. How safe will Richo's job be if we get a wooden spoon this year and the next? But you have to do the rebuild right rather than half arse it. Once you start to rise the pressure rises and if you haven't built solid foundations it can fall apart and fizzle out. We need to see just how well the dogs have built theirs. I get the feeling it might lack depth if they rise too quick. Slow and steady wins the race. Patience is a virtue. And other such platitudes. But then again Port built it right and blasted their way to the top. But will they go all the way or be a flash in the pan? Time will tell.

[samuraisaint]

May be ancient history now, but they didn't lose a GF by a toe poke, then draw another, and then earn the right to host a home final during the years that we were doing those things. It should also be noted that even in 2012 we won more games than anyone else has and not made the 8, and with a percentage of over 120. We were a dodgy free kick away from another finals campaign that year.
Port and the Bullies have a lot of really top end talent. A lot. We have one, maybe two years right at the bottom of the ladder awaiting us, with maybe another when our next round of retirees kicks in at the end of next year or 2017. Sit tight and watch the high draft picks accumulate and we'll be back up there; top 4 again in 2020.

[The Fireman]

time frame.

[matrix]

no matter the history between them and us

go the doggies

[Con Gorozidis]

Agree Bluthy. Look at the E Girls finishing 5th in 2012 with a rocket.
But now they are kind of trapped in no-mans land.

Having said that the Woofers were down for four straight years, 2011-2014 finishing 11th, 15th, 15th, 14th

This is only the beginning of our 3rd year down. We still managed to finish 9th in 2012.

Would 2017 be too early for us to finish mid-table?

[Spinner]

are a waste of time. they are better...far better and they have drafted better. it is a bit like last time round only this time the tables have turned - they have the quality

You just contradicted yourself by making a comparison

And yes I agree that the Dogs have, of late, drafted better. They really nailed their pics of Bontempeli and Stringer. Both look likely to become genuine elite players.

If you redid the Billings pick here and now you would go for Bontempelli. who knows who will be better in 3 years though.

You cannot become a Top 4 team unless you can produce some genuine elite players. Jury is still out on whether Billings and McCartin will be, though clearly both have talent.

We have started our rebuild 2 to 3 years after the Dogs. However we so far seem to be lacking get in some genuine cream.

A lot is going to rest on our picks over the next 2 years plus any FA's. So so picks there and will be trouble.

Bont wouldn't be there at 3 to get...

[Con Gorozidis]

are a waste of time. they are better...far better and they have drafted better. it is a bit like last time round only this time the tables have turned - they have the quality

You just contradicted yourself by making a comparison

And yes I agree that the Dogs have, of late, drafted better. They really nailed their pics of Bontempeli and Stringer. Both look likely to become genuine elite players.

If you redid the Billings pick here and now you would go for Bontempelli. who knows who will be better in 3 years though.

You cannot become a Top 4 team unless you can produce some genuine elite players. Jury is still out on whether Billings and McCartin will be, though clearly both have talent.

We have started our rebuild 2 to 3 years after the Dogs. However we so far seem to be lacking get in some genuine cream.

A lot is going to rest on our picks over the next 2 years plus any FA's. So so picks there and will be trouble.

Bont wouldn't be there at 3 to get...

Good point - The Doggies have ended up with the actual Pick 1 from 2014 (Boyd) and the Performance Pick 1 (Bont).
Sure they had to lose Griffen - but I dont they will care about that in three years. Heck they are probably already over losing Griffen.

[cwrcyn]

Don't forget that the Dogs started their re-build two years before us (with some father/son picks thrown in). Let's see what our playing list looks like in two years.

There seem to be some assumptions that we're doing everything wrong at the moment, but I would strongly disagree.

[citywest]

Don't forget that the Dogs started their re-build two years before us (with some father/son picks thrown in). Let's see what our playing list looks like in two years.

There seem to be some assumptions that we're doing everything wrong at the moment, but I would strongly disagree.

We only did 2 thing wrong in my opinion. We should have accepted pick 12 from Richmond for Armo and also allowed Steven to walk as a FA at the end of this year. Now I know I will be howled down and probably be given a warning from the Mods but I will not get over this anytime soon. Please note...I am not saying anything against Armo or Steven. I like both of them but I like St Kilda FC a million times more.

If we had accepted pick 12 for Armo then we could have picked up either Ellis, Weller, Lever, Garlett, Durdin, Langford or Laverde.....take your pick. These guys will be 25 when St Kilda will be in contention for a flag whereas Armo will be over 30. And as we all know, once you get to 30+ you are more injury prone.

If we had allowed Steven to walk as a FA at the end of this year then we would be getting pick 3 at worst. Steven is a very good player but I would have been happy taking my chances in November this year with pick 3 and again this player will be about 24 when the Saints are challenging whilst Steven will be 30. The other benefit would have been on our salary cap. So there you have it people, let the howling and the warnings begin.

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[Bunk_Moreland]

Don't forget that the Dogs started their re-build two years before us (with some father/son picks thrown in). Let's see what our playing list looks like in two years.

There seem to be some assumptions that we're doing everything wrong at the moment, but I would strongly disagree.

We only did 2 thing wrong in my opinion. We should have accepted pick 12 from Richmond for Armo and also allowed Steven to walk as a FA at the end of this year. Now I know I will be howled down and probably be given a warning from the Mods but I will not get over this anytime soon. Please note...I am not saying anything against Armo or Steven. I like both of them but I like St Kilda FC a million times more.

If we had accepted pick 12 for Armo then we could have picked up either Ellis, Weller, Lever, Garlett, Durdin, Langford or Laverde.....take your pick. These guys will be 25 when St Kilda will be in contention for a flag whereas Armo will be over 30. And as we all know, once you get to 30+ you are more injury prone.

If we had allowed Steven to walk as a FA at the end of this year then we would be getting pick 3 at worst. Steven is a very good player but I would have been happy taking my chances in November this year with pick 3 and again this player will be about 24 when the Saints are challenging whilst Steven will be 30. The other benefit would have been on our salary cap. So there you have it people, let the howling and the warnings begin.

Give it rest for gods sake. You get rid of a B&F and a great club man the only two young mids who have played more than 50 games. And for what? A "possible" good player?

You have gone on and on about this and have had many and varied reasons for why this would have been counter productive, but you keep this up.

It is repetitive and can be construed as trolling. It didn't happen, it was never going to happen and if it did happen we would be getting beaten by 15 goals every game.

No wonder many on here think you are not a Saints supporter when you want us to destroy the fabric of the club by dumping to of our long term young players.

Just get over it, and if you cant please stop posting it. We are all tired of this foolishness.